Rapists Targeting Drunk Women...not rape?

[cabanafrau]

My son will go to college (hopefully) in a couple of years. It scares me to think that if he goes to a party, gets drunk and ends up sleeping with an equally drunk girl that if she sobers up the next day and regrets the choices she made the night before - she is automatically the victim and he is a criminal. She gets support, counselling, etc, and he gets kicked out of school and potentially a spot on the sex offender registry.

Yes, women should be able to get drunk and not worry about their safety. However, they should not be able to get drunk and not worry about the consequences of their decision to do so and the choices they make while under the influence.

He could have the same regrets the morning after, be "automatically the victim", she the criminal, he gets support and counseling and she gets kicked out of school and potentially must register.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

He could have the same regrets the morning after, be "automatically the victim", she the criminal, he gets support and counseling and she gets kicked out of school and potentially must register.

Yes, theoretically it could happen but let's not be naive. That's not usually the way it works.

 

[jaybirdsmommy]

This thread makes it seem like a scenario like that is the norm, something happening all of the time. It is not. I would venture to say that 99% of regretful (both parties) drunk sex is recorded as only a shameful memory and reported to only the best friend circles. That is normal.

Reporting rape is not easy and not something to do just to get back at someone because you feel regretful. Actually getting the rapist charged and convicted for rape is pretty difficult to do. You need to go as soon as possible to a medical center and complete a rape kit. You need to go to the police and file a report. You have a very short window to get this done. This is not something that most college girls just sober up and do - this is something that girls do when they're seriously traumatized but also level-headed enough to make these decisions. And then on top of that - it's pretty embarrassing for the victim. She has to publicly own up to what has happened and deal with the consequences of people potentially hating her for turning the other party in. This is not something to do on a whim.

Sure, maybe there's a girl out there for vengeance, but I don't think she's common.

It may not be common but it does happen, and not usually in the way you describe it. A few weeks down the road and she's facing consequences for what happened (STD, pregnancy, boyfriend finds out, there's a viral video, whatever). Most rational adults just accept that they've made a bad decision and deal with the consequences, but we also have some kids (NOT all, but definitely some) that were raised believing that nothing is their fault. Yes, it's embarrassing to deal with an investigation, but some may see it as less embarrassing than telling your Dad that you got drunk at a party and had a one night stand. It may be more difficult to prove at this point since there's no evidence for a rape kit, but even the accusation can be life altering for the other party.

What you are describing is absolutely true for actual victims and a pretty accurate description of what needs to change in our society as far as handling assaults. The investigation shouldn't be as bad as a second attack. As I said earlier, there are two completely different situations here.

 

[tinkerbellandeeyor]

Get ready for some more tmi i was rapped by a neighbor at 11 all i remember was being examprnd medically and given a pill and he was put in jail i was 11 and he was 16 at the time if that makes a difference mynpoint being is i dont remember being investigated

 

[cabanafrau]

Yes, theoretically it could happen but let's not be naive. That's not usually the way it works.

It may not be common but it does happen, and not usually in the way you describe it. A few weeks down the road and she's facing consequences for what happened (STD, pregnancy, boyfriend finds out, there's a viral video, whatever). Most rational adults just accept that they've made a bad decision and deal with the consequences, but we also have some kids (NOT all, but definitely some) that were raised believing that nothing is their fault. Yes, it's embarrassing to deal with an investigation, but some may see it as less embarrassing than telling your Dad that you got drunk at a party and had a one night stand. It may be more difficult to prove at this point since there's no evidence for a rape kit, but even the accusation can be life altering for the other party.

What you are describing is absolutely true for actual victims and a pretty accurate description of what needs to change in our society as far as handling assaults. The investigation shouldn't be as bad as a second attack. As I said earlier, there are two completely different situations here.

For someone so knowledgeable about the way it usually works the bolded is a pretty eye opening statement. If most people actually understood the way it usually works maybe things would finally change for the better.

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

I think we can all agree that someone forcing another person should not receive legal protections. Drinking (and drugs) definitely complicate situations though because it's not always even regret on one party's behalf; sometimes they just don't remember. Plenty of people get black out drunk and have no way of knowing if they consented or not, or have a choppy memory of how things went down. In some cases, a sober person may have been able to tell that they were in no position to legally consent, but another drunk person may not recognize that level of drunkeness in them and have thought they were willing and into it (obviously not referring to actually forcing someone here which would clearly be rape, but rather when someone doesn't say no and seems to give the impression that they are into it, but are too impaired to really give consent and the other party is also too drunk to realize that). It's oftentimes very difficult to discern the truth in some of these situations. While victims should always have an avenue to come forward and receive the help they need as well as justice, rape is a serious charge that has to be thoroughly investigated so that someone isn't wrongfully convicted due to things like someone regretting consensual sex, trying to get revenge, lack of memory of what actually happened, etc.

 

[disneychrista]

Get ready for some more tmi i was rapped by a neighbor at 11 all i remember was being examprnd medically and given a pill and he was put in jail i was 11 and he was 16 at the time if that makes a difference mynpoint being is i dont remember being investigated

I am so sorry that that happened to you. The difference in this case is that you were an 11 year girl, not an adult woman. Rape is Rape.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Get ready for some more tmi i was rapped by a neighbor at 11 all i remember was being examprnd medically and given a pill and he was put in jail i was 11 and he was 16 at the time if that makes a difference mynpoint being is i dont remember being investigated

I'm so sorry that happened to you!

 

[tinkerbellandeeyor]

I'm so sorry that happened to you!

Thank you

 

[mummabear]

This thread makes it seem like a scenario like that is the norm, something happening all of the time. It is not. I would venture to say that 99% of regretful (both parties) drunk sex is recorded as only a shameful memory and reported to only the best friend circles. That is normal.

Reporting rape is not easy and not something to do just to get back at someone because you feel regretful. Actually getting the rapist charged and convicted for rape is pretty difficult to do. You need to go as soon as possible to a medical center and complete a rape kit. You need to go to the police and file a report. You have a very short window to get this done. This is not something that most college girls just sober up and do - this is something that girls do when they're seriously traumatized but also level-headed enough to make these decisions. And then on top of that - it's pretty embarrassing for the victim. She has to publicly own up to what has happened and deal with the consequences of people potentially hating her for turning the other party in. This is not something to do on a whim.

Sure, maybe there's a girl out there for vengeance, but I don't think she's common.

Absolutely filing a police report is traumatic, the whole process from the invasive rape kit, giving your statement again and again, to having to go to court is not something someone would want to do.
But many of these cases are not going to the police, they are dealing with campus justice. And the ball can start rolling and be hard to stop once they say something.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a33751/occidental-justice-case/
https://reason.com/2019/08/01/carleton-college-title-ix-expelled-football-student-lawsuit/
https://reason.com/2017/01/31/amherst-student-expelled-for-sexual-misc/
We cannot be telling girls it is okay to get blackout drunk. They don't deserve to be raped of course, but we should be teaching and expecting healthy drinking habits. The safety risks are of many things other than sexual assault.
And also because we do many things to protect ourselves from harm everyday, why should protecting yourself from assault by limiting how much you drink not be one of them?
And lastly while being blackout drunk is not asking for it, they do bear some responsibility when they don't know if they did actually ask for it or not. Particularly when the evidence suggests she did.
Girls cannot rely on someone else being in a state to recognize the fact that they are not in a state to consent.
In an (understanable) effort to protect victims from being further traumatized by the process, campuses have completely disregared the accused rights to a defense and the system as it now is arguably sexist.

 

[butterscotchcollins]

We cannot be telling girls it is okay to get blackout drunk. They don't deserve to be raped of course, but we should be teaching and expecting healthy drinking habits. The safety risks are of many things other than sexual assault.
And also because we do many things to protect ourselves from harm everyday, why should protecting yourself from assault by limiting how much you drink not be one of them?
And lastly while being blackout drunk is not asking for it, they do bear some responsibility when they don't know if they did actually ask for it or not. Particularly when the evidence suggests she did.
Girls cannot rely on someone else being in a state to recognize the fact that they are not in a state to consent.
In an (understanable) effort to protect victims from being further traumatized by the process, campuses have completely disregared the accused rights to a defense and the system as it now is arguably sexist.

If they are not "in a state to consent" then they cannot legally consent. I am baffled why this is a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, that scenario that "terrifies" mothers and sons has an equally simple solution: teach your sons to respect themselves and their sexual partners and not engage in sexual activity when alcohol has been involved. Teach them to use an overabundance of caution and not put themselves in any kind of situation where there "might" be a false accusation, the same way we're telling girls to not put themselves in situations where they might be taken advantage of. I am sick and tired of the argument that it's only females who need to use common sense or keep themselves out of harm's way altogether - the burden is also on your sons to enact, and you as parents to educate and reinforce, respect and good decision-making.

 

[disneychrista]

We cannot be telling girls it is okay to get blackout drunk.

I agree and it takes one more than a few drinks to get this way (in most cases). I think bottom line is everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves. Don't over drink. Don't take advantage of a situation where someone has had too much.

I had one scary incident where I had 3.5 beers and I don't remember most of the night. Thankfully I was with a good friend and he saw that something was wrong because at that point I was still thinking I was okay. He said everything was fine and then all of sudden it was like a switch was flipped. I swear it was like someone had put something in my drink.

If they are not "in a state to consent" then they cannot legally consent. I am baffled why this is a hard concept to grasp.

The concept isn't hard to grasp but the reality is what is "not in a state to consent" who determines that?

 

[Hikergirl]

If they are not "in a state to consent" then they cannot legally consent. I am baffled why this is a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, that scenario that "terrifies" mothers and sons has an equally simple solution: teach your sons to respect themselves and their sexual partners and not engage in sexual activity when alcohol has been involved. Teach them to use an overabundance of caution and not put themselves in any kind of situation where there "might" be a false accusation, the same way we're telling girls to not put themselves in situations where they might be taken advantage of. I am sick and tired of the argument that it's only females who need to use common sense or keep themselves out of harm's way altogether - the burden is also on your sons to enact, and you as parents to educate and reinforce, respect and good decision-making.

Could you be any more condescending with your "quotes"
Maybe you shouldn't assume we haven't taught our sons how to be the kind of men who wouldn't take advantage of a drunk girl.

 

[dish rag]

If they are not "in a state to consent" then they cannot legally consent. I am baffled why this is a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, that scenario that "terrifies" mothers and sons has an equally simple solution: teach your sons to respect themselves and their sexual partners and not engage in sexual activity when alcohol has been involved. Teach them to use an overabundance of caution and not put themselves in any kind of situation where there "might" be a false accusation, the same way we're telling girls to not put themselves in situations where they might be taken advantage of. I am sick and tired of the argument that it's only females who need to use common sense or keep themselves out of harm's way altogether - the burden is also on your sons to enact, and you as parents to educate and reinforce, respect and good decision-making.

And teach daughters to respect their bodies and to not get drunk. Better yet just don't drink. Not much if any good comes from it.

 

[disneychrista]

just don't drink. Not much if any good comes from it.

As much as I don't want to I am forced to agree with this.

 

[disneychrista]

And teach daughters to respect their bodies and to not get drunk.

Just the daughters? Not the sons?

 

[LongLiveRafiki]

If they are not "in a state to consent" then they cannot legally consent. I am baffled why this is a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, that scenario that "terrifies" mothers and sons has an equally simple solution: teach your sons to respect themselves and their sexual partners and not engage in sexual activity when alcohol has been involved. Teach them to use an overabundance of caution and not put themselves in any kind of situation where there "might" be a false accusation, the same way we're telling girls to not put themselves in situations where they might be taken advantage of. I am sick and tired of the argument that it's only females who need to use common sense or keep themselves out of harm's way altogether - the burden is also on your sons to enact, and you as parents to educate and reinforce, respect and good decision-making.

Determining whether or not someone was in a state to consent is very difficult to do after the fact when these cases are being investigated. BACs only tell you how much alcohol is in a person's system at that time, not during the alleged assault,witness accounts as to the level of intoxication of the alleged victim before or after can be skewed by bias or their own level of intoxication, different people are effected much differently by the same amount of alcohol, and some people can go from slightly buzzed to blackout (though still conscious) drunk in a snap. It makes it very difficult to have a straight guideline for what is considered being in a state to consent (barring of course the obvious of being unconscious or asleep) or how to know if someone was or wasn't numerous hours, days, weeks or more after the event when a case is being investigated. Even during the time it happened, different people can have differing opinions on whether someone is too impaired to consent. Also, if the alleged victim can use the claim that they were too impaired to give consent, what about the alleged perpetrator- what if they were also too impaired to give consent? (Again, this is not referring to clear cut cases of rape where someone is forced). As @mummabear linked to above, there are cases where people have been convicted despite evidence that they were as impaired, if not more impaired than, the alleged victim, as well as evidence to support that the alleged victim was the one to initiate the acts. If both parties are too intoxicated to consent (and there's no indication that anything was forced), then wouldn't it technically be rape on both sides?

Absolutely, parents should teach their sons to be respectable human beings and use caution, especially when drinking. Likewise, parents should teach their daughters the same exact things. Drinking inhibits one's ability to make sound decisions and so many young people don't seem to fully understand or appreciate the risks involved or recognize when they are reaching a state of intoxication in which they may do things they regret or cannot remember later.

 

[luvsJack]

Of course parents should teach their daughters not to get black out drunk and teach their sons the same thing.

If both parties are visibly drunk neither can consent so neither would be guilty of rape. But if one party purposely slips something in another’s drink, continuously feeds drinks to the other or out and out lies about what is in a drink, or picks out a person that is visibly drunk to take home—that’s rape. Period. Or it is here.

There are more than a few mixed drinks out there that can make someone not used to drinking falling down drunk after just one. Should the guy that buys the girl one of these drinks not be held responsible when that drink gets her to the point of falling down or even black out drunk and then has sex with her?

False accusations happen when alcohol is not even in the equation. There is no easy answer to that problem. But taking away something that gives the victim voice isn’t the solution.

 

[mummabear]

If they are not "in a state to consent" then they cannot legally consent. I am baffled why this is a hard concept to grasp.

Furthermore, that scenario that "terrifies" mothers and sons has an equally simple solution: teach your sons to respect themselves and their sexual partners and not engage in sexual activity when alcohol has been involved. Teach them to use an overabundance of caution and not put themselves in any kind of situation where there "might" be a false accusation, the same way we're telling girls to not put themselves in situations where they might be taken advantage of. I am sick and tired of the argument that it's only females who need to use common sense or keep themselves out of harm's way altogether - the burden is also on your sons to enact, and you as parents to educate and reinforce, respect and good decision-making.

What is hilarious here is that you want parents of boys to educate and reinforce good decision making so that they can make better decisions than those you expect the girls to make.

What you seem to be really struggling to grasp, is that if the boy is also drunk, is she not also assaulting him? I mean he is no more capable of giving consent than she is. So why is it that you see it as him taking advantage of her and not the other way around? Why are you saying she is not responsible for her choices but he is responsible for his?

Yes everyone needs to take care of themselves, and others. Yes everyone needs to be taught consent and respect.
The point is once you are drunk the likelyhood of bad choices from both parties increases, boys shouldnt be getting hammered either. But this message that girls should be able to get as drunk as they want and be safe is ridiculous and a dangerous message.
The burden for everyone is to protect themselves. You cannot place the burden of responsibility for girls being safe on the boys.

 

[mummabear]

If both parties are visibly drunk neither can consent so neither would be guilty of rape. But if one party purposely slips something in another’s drink, continuously feeds drinks to the other or out and out lies about what is in a drink, or picks out a person that is visibly drunk to take home—that’s rape. Period. Or it is here.

And yet, boys are being expelled from colleges for just that.
I think we can all agree that anyone that slips something into someone's drink is a rapist, I think plying someone with alcohol is similar (not quite the same as I do think the drinker holds some responsibility for their choice to drink the drinks, a drug slipped in has had no choice).
Someone sober should not have sex with someone obviously drunk no matter how much that drunk person may want it, the responsible thing to do is to tell them you would like to when they are sober.

As far as false allegations go, I think those are so rare they are practically unicorns, worrying about that is like worrying about being hit by lightning.
These arent false allegations, they are about the definition of rape, in these less clear cut cases being so hard to quantify.