Rapists Targeting Drunk Women...not rape?

[LittleMissMagic]

Absolutely filing a police report is traumatic, the whole process from the invasive rape kit, giving your statement again and again, to having to go to court is not something someone would want to do.
But many of these cases are not going to the police, they are dealing with campus justice. And the ball can start rolling and be hard to stop once they say something.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a33751/occidental-justice-case/
https://reason.com/2019/08/01/carleton-college-title-ix-expelled-football-student-lawsuit/
https://reason.com/2017/01/31/amherst-student-expelled-for-sexual-misc/

I don't think this situation is what the "targeting" article that the OP posted was about, but it does raise concern. There are a lot of things going on here.... underage drinking and underage people (the Jane in the Esquire article is 17 - even if she was sober to give consent, she couldn't). Bad judgement all around.

Maybe "false reports" or "questionable drunken consent reports" wouldn't be as common if the victim was not allowed to purse action from the school without having filed a police report. Or maybe the universities should start being proactive and monitor student drinking and university-affiliated events.

HMMM.... pretty tricky.

We cannot be telling girls it is okay to get blackout drunk. They don't deserve to be raped of course, but we should be teaching and expecting healthy drinking habits. The safety risks are of many things other than sexual assault.
And also because we do many things to protect ourselves from harm everyday, why should protecting yourself from assault by limiting how much you drink not be one of them?
And lastly while being blackout drunk is not asking for it, they do bear some responsibility when they don't know if they did actually ask for it or not. Particularly when the evidence suggests she did.
Girls cannot rely on someone else being in a state to recognize the fact that they are not in a state to consent.
In an (understanable) effort to protect victims from being further traumatized by the process, campuses have completely disregared the accused rights to a defense and the system as it now is arguably sexist.

Okay, but let's flip it and reverse it - we cannot be telling boys that it's okay to get blackout drunk and rape women. Why not protect yourself from rape charges by limiting how much you drink? Or not having sex with totally blacked out girls?

It is sexist. And don't guys sometimes wake up embarrassed of the totally trashed girl they slept with when they were blacked out the night before? If they were also drunk, they didn't consent. Why don't they take it to the school board?

*Editing to say that I see both sides. This isn't black-and-white (the drunken consentual-or-not sex.... not rape). I hope that none of your sons get expelled from school for drunkenly having sex with a girl who later decided to report him to the school board. And I hope that none of your daughters wake up in a stranger's bedroom and don't remember having sex the night before. It sucks for both parties. But I still believe that these are not common occurrences. The probability of this will happen to your kid is very low. So, sure, worry - but not any more than you worry that your kid will get in a car crash, fail out of college, get a DUI, contract an STD..... the list goes on.

 

[tinkerbellandeeyor]

And yet, boys are being expelled from colleges for just that.
I think we can all agree that anyone that slips something into someone's drink is a rapist, I think plying someone with alcohol is similar (not quite the same as I do think the drinker holds some responsibility for their choice to drink the drinks, a drug slipped in has had no choice).
Someone sober should not have sex with someone obviously drunk no matter how much that drunk person may want it, the responsible thing to do is to tell them you would like to when they are sober.

As far as false allegations go, I think those are so rare they are practically unicorns, worrying about that is like worrying about being hit by lightning.
These arent false allegations, they are about the definition of rape, in these less clear cut cases being so hard to quantify.

My mom did teach me one thing and that is never leave your drink unattended

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I feel like we should be able to discuss things in terms of individuals--not just framed in a state of one gender or another.

Women are disproportionately sexually assaulted. However, when one is discussing teaching and behaviors and recognizing signs and all sorts of things it should be applied to both genders. Men can be sexually assualted and raped too. I would even go so far that the social stigma towards male sexual assault and rape victim is still very strong whereas we really have been working towards as a society as a whole to try and lessen that stigma towards women. A man can be sexually assaulted by another man, and a woman can be sexually assaulted by another woman as well.

 

[luvsJack]

And yet, boys are being expelled from colleges for just that.
I think we can all agree that anyone that slips something into someone's drink is a rapist, I think plying someone with alcohol is similar (not quite the same as I do think the drinker holds some responsibility for their choice to drink the drinks, a drug slipped in has had no choice).
Someone sober should not have sex with someone obviously drunk no matter how much that drunk person may want it, the responsible thing to do is to tell them you would like to when they are sober.

As far as false allegations go, I think those are so rare they are practically unicorns, worrying about that is like worrying about being hit by lightning.
These arent false allegations, they are about the definition of rape, in these less clear cut cases being so hard to quantify.

Having consensual sex when you have been drinking, feeling guilty later and accusing the other party of rape IS a false allegation. Whatever the situation, if one party accuses the other when rape did not happen, it’s a false accusation.

All persons should be taught not to get themselves into these situations. But the fact is the reason for the law as it exists here is to protect the victim in the scenarios that I described as well as others.

Feeding someone drinks that is already even partly intoxicated to get them to the point of blacking out or passing out is not a hard thing to do. There comes a point when the person buying the drinks becomes responsible.

Suddenly buying them a drink with a large amount of one or several alcohols in it, same thing. These drinks are made to cover the taste of the alcohol plus when drinking already the taste buds get numb. Easy enough for someone not to realize the amount they are drinking.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Why don't they take it to the school board?

Because it's still incredibly stigmitized.

 

[dish rag]

Just the daughters? Not the sons?

The poster I quoted mentioned that. So I figured that was good enough.

 

[disneychrista]

Or not having sex with totally blacked out girls?

Here's the thing how do you know if the girl/guy is black out drunk? It wouldn't be until the next morning and she/he doesn't remember the night before that they know they were black out drunk. It's scary and not something I ever want to experience again.

Now there are obvious signs that the person has had too much and those are the ones you should be looking for.



edited to fix pronouns.

 

[lifesavacation]

It's been in my local news that a school district near us has implemented a new sexual health curriculum. One of the topics is how to confirm consent before engaging in sexual activity. I'm glad that it is being addressed as part of the curriculum. I am really curious how they address consent when alcohol is involved.

 

[ronandannette]

I agree it's a terrifying thought for mothers of sons.
At the same time, it is equally terrifying that if my dd goes out and gets drunk and raped that her rapist could face no consequences because my dd willingly drank.
I guess my 2 ds's should stay in NY (at least until the loophole is closed) and my dd should move to @luvsJack state.

Sons and daughters; totally. Really, the only advice I can give (and pray he takes) is that my DS simply never drink to excess and never, ever, ever have anything to do with a girl who is drinking to excess. My advice for a daughter, if I'd had one would be that she is simply not safe, ever, if she is in a situation where she and others are drinking to excess, no matter how well she feels she knows the men who are present. Whether or not these are realistic expectations, well, I don't know. But I truly believe it is really the only reasonable thing I could ever say.

I agree heartily with the pp who said we go to such great lengths to protect ourselves from so many things - why on earth is this different?

And teach daughters to respect their bodies and to not get drunk. Better yet just don't drink. Not much if any good comes from it.

Daughters and sons - I heartily agree.

Just the daughters? Not the sons?

Daughters and sons - definitely daughters and sons. I know you've only got girls and I've only got a boy - I bet we both have similar concerns for their well-being.

 

[LittleMissMagic]

Here's the thing how do you know if the girl/guy is black out drunk? It wouldn't be until the next morning and she/he doesn't remember the night before that they know they were black out drunk. It's scary and not something I ever want to experience again.

Now there are obvious signs that the person has had too much and those are the ones you should be looking for.



edited to fix pronouns.

Okay, excuse my phrasing. Yes, it's difficult to tell whether or not someone is blacked out.... but there's a pretty good chance that someone is overly intoxicated (and will have spotty memory) if they are slurring their words, have difficulty standing, are closing their eyes/nodding off. If someone has become intoxicated to the point where they have lost control of their body, that's the probably the point where you should step back and ask yourself if that person can willingly give consent.

Now, I'd like to believe that college guys who have sex with overly intoxicated girls (who they later find out were blacked out) didn't have malicious intentions. His intuition, too, was impaired. He was also stumbling on his own two feet and didn't recognize that the girl was too. He was also intoxicated and unable to give consent. So did he really rape her? Did she rape him? Mutual raping? Huge gray area!!!!

So what's the obvious answer for both genders of this unfortunate scenario? Stop becoming so belligerent! Respect yourself and respect others. Just because you don't remember doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just because you were intoxicated doesn't mean you aren't responsible for your actions. This isn't boys vs. girls. Grow up and take responsibility for your actions. Both sexes.

 

[mummabear]

Having consensual sex when you have been drinking, feeling guilty later and accusing the other party of rape IS a false allegation. Whatever the situation, if one party accuses the other when rape did not happen, it’s a false accusation

I was meaning as far as completely made up, to the girls these allegations aren't false, people in positions of authority on campus are telling them it is rape, they are telling them right from orientation that the chances if them being assaulted are high.

 

[luvsJack]

I was meaning as far as completely made up, to the girls these allegations aren't false, people in positions of authority on campus are telling them it is rape, they are telling them right from orientation that the chances if them being assaulted are high.

Do you not think they should be told this?

 

[mummabear]

Do you not think they should be told this?

I think we need to be careful about giving girls a victim mentality

 

[luvsJack]

I think we need to be careful about giving girls a victim mentality

I agree. But I think part of that is educating them about avoiding sexual assault and what is sexual assault. We can’t educate them or give them a voice if we don’t warn them. And sadly part of this is informing them that statistically they are highly likely to be assaulted.

 

[mummabear]

I agree. But I think part of that is educating them about avoiding sexual assault and what is sexual assault. We can’t educate them or give them a voice if we don’t warn them. And sadly part of this is informing them that statistically they are highly likely to be assaulted.

And what education are the boys being given at the orientation? Is it only about how not to assault someone ?(and are we also educating girls about how they cannot assault someone?) Or are we also educating the boys on how to protect themselves from assault?
Is they way this education is being run something to do with why boys are not reporting cases where their drunken state has been taken advantage of?

 

[luvsJack]

And what education are the boys being given at the orientation? Is it only about how not to assault someone ?(and are we also educating girls about how they cannot assault someone?) Or are we also educating the boys on how to protect themselves from assault?
Is they way this education is being run something to do with why boys are not reporting cases where their drunken state has been taken advantage of?

Of course they should be educated too.

But how often do you think it actually happens to the boys? While the FBI definition of rape has changed, all statistics and studies show that a female raping a male is rare.

If the schools have 0 reports from boys, they aren’t going to see a reason to educate them except on how to protect themselves from accusations.

 

[disneychrista]

all statistics and studies show that a female raping a male is rare.

What about male on male?

 

[luvsJack]

What about male on male?

That would probably be more common and definitely should be addressed to them.

 

[Wendy31]

I think, whether you're a guy or girl, if you engage in risky behavior, you need to be prepared for the consequences of the risky behavior.

And drinking until you're drunk, wasted, falling down, can't remember what you did or said the next morning, is risky behavior.

Sometimes the consequences are unfair or tragic & maybe not even your fault, but, still, they are your consequences.

If I went to the track to walk & left my purse on the front seat of my unlocked car & came back to find my purse stolen, when I call the police to report the crime, one of their 1st questions will be, "Was your car locked?" And, when they discover that I had left it unlocked, they're going to sigh & shake their heads.

When I come here to the DIS to complain about my purse being stolen, I will be crucified. People will tell me I was stupid to leave my purse in my unlocked car & will scoff & tell me it was my fault my purse got stolen.

We should protect our selves as least as well as we protect our possessions.

I do not accept that binge-drinking is a college & young adult "rite of passage" & that every young adult has to get drunk because it's just the young adult thing to to do or that everyone must attend the type of parties or events or hang out w/ people where it's likely something is going to get put in their drinks. You can go to college w/o getting drunk.

I did. DH did. And I know plenty of other people who managed to get through college & young adulthood w/o getting wasted. I know people who are currently in college who aren't getting wasted.

I also think we do a disservice to young women when we tell them that they can't be held responsible for the things they did or said while drunk.

DH & I currently have a 19 year old DD & an 18 year old DS. We hope we have raised BOTH of them to be strong, intelligent, kind people who make good choices. DD is just as responsible for her body as DS is for his body.

DISCLAIMER: Again, I think guys who take advantage of girls who are drunk are jerks - a drunk girl is not a chance for a guy to get lucky. Guys who rape girls, whether they're drunk or not, are scum & should be criminally punished. If a girl is attacked, molested, or assaulted (even by a "known person" in a date-rape type situation), I fully support her in her choice to report the crime. But I don't support girls who "change their minds" & have regrets the next morning.

 

[ronandannette]

I think, whether you're a guy or girl, if you engage in risky behavior, you need to be prepared for the consequences of the risky behavior.

And drinking until you're drunk, wasted, falling down, can't remember what you did or said the next morning, is risky behavior.

Sometimes the consequences are unfair or tragic & maybe not even your fault, but, still, they are your consequences.

If I went to the track to walk & left my purse on the front seat of my unlocked car & came back to find my purse stolen, when I call the police to report the crime, one of their 1st questions will be, "Was your car locked?" And, when they discover that I had left it unlocked, they're going to sigh & shake their heads.

When I come here to the DIS to complain about my purse being stolen, I will be crucified. People will tell me I was stupid to leave my purse in my unlocked car & will scoff & tell me it was my fault my purse got stolen.

We should protect our selves as least as well as we protect our possessions.

I do not accept that binge-drinking is a college & young adult "rite of passage" & that every young adult has to get drunk because it's just the young adult thing to to do or that everyone must attend the type of parties or events or hang out w/ people where it's likely something is going to get put in their drinks. You can go to college w/o getting drunk.

I did. DH did. And I know plenty of other people who managed to get through college & young adulthood w/o getting wasted. I know people who are currently in college who aren't getting wasted.

I also think we do a disservice to young women when we tell them that they can't be held responsible for the things they did or said while drunk.

DH & I currently have a 19 year old DD & an 18 year old DS. We hope we have raised BOTH of them to be strong, intelligent, kind people who make good choices. DD is just as responsible for her body as DS is for his body.

DISCLAIMER: Again, I think guys who take advantage of girls who are drunk are jerks - a drunk girl is not a chance for a guy to get lucky. Guys who rape girls, whether they're drunk or not, are scum & should be criminally punished. If a girl is attacked, molested, or assaulted (even by a "known person" in a date-rape type situation), I fully support her in her choice to report the crime. But I don't support girls who "change their minds" & have regrets the next morning.