Rapists Targeting Drunk Women...not rape?

[mummabear]

Of course they should be educated too.

But how often do you think it actually happens to the boys? While the FBI definition of rape has changed, all statistics and studies show that a female raping a male is rare.

If the schools have 0 reports from boys, they aren’t going to see a reason to educate them except on how to protect themselves from accusations.

How often? Dont know, but part of the reason we dont know is our attitude towards men. Maybe we dont make them feel comfortable reporting.
Maybe they are scared in these drunken encounters that it is them who will end up in trouble.

I do think men being raped by females in the traditional sense is rare, but them being groomed and abused, not rare at all. And being plyed with alcohol or having their drunken state taken advantage of by someone they would have no interest sober, chances would be fairly similar as their female counterparts.

And the attitude of these colleagues that have such a low burden of proof to decide man=rapist women=victim not only does harm to those accused and dealing with a system stacked against them but also to male victims.

Think about the way you think a boy at college would be treated if he was talking about being really drunk, forgetting what happened would up naked in some random womens dorm , do you think the reaction from his friends and people in authority would be the same as if a girl said it?

 

[luvsJack]

How often? Dont know, but part of the reason we dont know is our attitude towards men. Maybe we dont make them feel comfortable reporting.
Maybe they are scared in these drunken encounters that it is them who will end up in trouble.

I do think men being raped by females in the traditional sense is rare, but them being groomed and abused, not rare at all. And being plyed with alcohol or having their drunken state taken advantage of by someone they would have no interest sober, chances would be fairly similar as their female counterparts.

And the attitude of these colleagues that have such a low burden of proof to decide man=rapist women=victim not only does harm to those accused and dealing with a system stacked against them but also to male victims.

Think about the way you think a boy at college would be treated if he was talking about being really drunk, forgetting what happened would up naked in some random womens dorm , do you think the reaction from his friends and people in authority would be the same as if a girl said it?

It may be that it doesn’t get reported, the problem is we don’t know.

It has taken a very long time to get the girls to come forward, it will take even longer to get the guys to. That’s a society problem not legal. The laws are there, or at least in some places.

A guy can be manipulated while drunk just as a girl can but otoh, you still have guys that make it their mission to have sex with as many girls as possible and really don’t care if they would be attracted to them while sober or not. Again, a society problem.

 

[luvsJack]

I think, whether you're a guy or girl, if you engage in risky behavior, you need to be prepared for the consequences of the risky behavior.

And drinking until you're drunk, wasted, falling down, can't remember what you did or said the next morning, is risky behavior.

Sometimes the consequences are unfair or tragic & maybe not even your fault, but, still, they are your consequences.

If I went to the track to walk & left my purse on the front seat of my unlocked car & came back to find my purse stolen, when I call the police to report the crime, one of their 1st questions will be, "Was your car locked?" And, when they discover that I had left it unlocked, they're going to sigh & shake their heads.

When I come here to the DIS to complain about my purse being stolen, I will be crucified. People will tell me I was stupid to leave my purse in my unlocked car & will scoff & tell me it was my fault my purse got stolen.

We should protect our selves as least as well as we protect our possessions.

I do not accept that binge-drinking is a college & young adult "rite of passage" & that every young adult has to get drunk because it's just the young adult thing to to do or that everyone must attend the type of parties or events or hang out w/ people where it's likely something is going to get put in their drinks. You can go to college w/o getting drunk.

I did. DH did. And I know plenty of other people who managed to get through college & young adulthood w/o getting wasted. I know people who are currently in college who aren't getting wasted.

I also think we do a disservice to young women when we tell them that they can't be held responsible for the things they did or said while drunk.

DH & I currently have a 19 year old DD & an 18 year old DS. We hope we have raised BOTH of them to be strong, intelligent, kind people who make good choices. DD is just as responsible for her body as DS is for his body.

DISCLAIMER: Again, I think guys who take advantage of girls who are drunk are jerks - a drunk girl is not a chance for a guy to get lucky. Guys who rape girls, whether they're drunk or not, are scum & should be criminally punished. If a girl is attacked, molested, or assaulted (even by a "known person" in a date-rape type situation), I fully support her in her choice to report the crime. But I don't support girls who "change their minds" & have regrets the next morning.

I don’t think anyone is saying that getting drunk is a rite of passage. But it happens. And it happens in colleges all over the country. A parent can teach their daughter and/or son all the lessons in the world and it can still happen. So, for me, I would rather teach the “but if you do. . .” lessons along with the don’t drink ones.

With Dd, it was “if you go to parties, go in a group, stay as a group and leave in a group”. And that’s what she did. Did she get falling down drunk? I don’t know. But there were 6-8 of them that did everything together. The other girls’ parent had taught the same lesson and so the group stayed together. Maybe she was lucky but there were two or three in the group that had strong enough personalities that no guy would have said “she is going with me” without getting a “NO she is not!” They took care of each other for sure.

Other lessons Dd got her whole life was to respect herself and her body and that it is HER body and she has the last word. No means no. And at the word no, all activity should stop, period.

One changing their mind the next day can happen whether alcohol is included or not. All the girl has to do is say “I said no”. Should we not have a law that says if they say no, it’s rape?

The law that says they can’t consent if under the influence, gives them voice and no lawyer can say “well she was drunk” as a defense. Laws that give victims voice are good things. All rapes are not forcible rape and this is one that is hard enough to get victims to come forward, to take away that voice would just be wrong.

 

[dish rag]

I would agree that people who cannot handle being drunk and act out violently when under the influence should refrain from drinking.

What about people who lose their wits and can be taken advantage of and raped? Just don't get drunk. It's one of the easiest things in the world to not do.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

What about people who lose their wits and can be taken advantage of and raped? Just don't get drunk. It's one of the easiest things in the world to not do.

There are all kinds of reasons people may be susceptible to being taken advantage of — being lost, alone, elderly, disabled, a child.... simply being a woman. Being vulnerable is not a crime, committing an act of violence is.

I’m fortunate to have never been raped. I’ve also been drunk plenty of times in my life. Many, many women have been raped while sober. Drinking is not the problem; raping is.

 

[luvsJack]

What about people who lose their wits and can be taken advantage of and raped? Just don't get drunk. It's one of the easiest things in the world to not do.

It may be easy but how realistic is it really to say that no college age person or high school age, for that matter is going to drink and/or get drunk?

It happens. It happens to people that think they are never going to drink. It happens to people that think they will “have just one drink”. It happens every day, every where.

 

[C&Jx2]

What about people who lose their wits and can be taken advantage of and raped? Just don't get drunk. It's one of the easiest things in the world to not do.

You know what’s even more easy?

Not raping someone.

 

[lifesavacation]

You know what’s even more easy?

Not raping someone.

For sure. Unfortunately, the Brock Turners of the world are out there. I hope to God my daughter never meets a predator like him at a college party. Even sober she would be at risk. Being drunk would make her more vulnerable. I don’t believe it’s realistic to think she’ll never go to a college party and drink. Hopefully she’ll go with a group of trusted friends and they’ll look after each other.

 

[Hikergirl]

You know what’s even more easy?

Not raping someone.

Right, getting drunk isn't illegal, it isn't even immoral. Rape on the other hand...

 

[dish rag]

You know what’s even more easy?

Not raping someone.

That goes with out saying. I'll never have to worry about being taken advantage of while drunk. It's easy to avoid, just don't get drunk.

 

[dish rag]

There are all kinds of reasons people may be susceptible to being taken advantage of — being lost, alone, elderly, disabled, a child.... simply being a woman. Being vulnerable is not a crime, committing an act of violence is.

I’m fortunate to have never been raped. I’ve also been drunk plenty of times in my life. Many, many women have been raped while sober. Drinking is not the problem; raping is.

This thread is about being raped while being drunk and the laws surrounding that.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

This thread is about being raped while being drunk and the laws surrounding that.

I’m well aware. The person doing the raping is the one breaking the law, what’s your point?

You quoted me to ask about people who are in positions to be taken advantage of and I told you being vulnerable isn’t a crime. The onus isn’t on the victim of a crime, it’s on the perpetrator.

 

[ronandannette]

There are all kinds of reasons people may be susceptible to being taken advantage of — being lost, alone, elderly, disabled, a child.... simply being a woman. Being vulnerable is not a crime, committing an act of violence is.

I’m fortunate to have never been raped. I’ve also been drunk plenty of times in my life. Many, many women have been raped while sober. Drinking is not the problem; raping is.

Very true and I'd never argue it. I do think though, that this particular discussion is solely addressing rape victims that have been drinking, so it's not completely out to lunch to factor it in. It adds a whole new level of vulnerability and often happens in an environment that becomes even more perilous because the would-be perpetrators are drinking too; perhaps dulling their (still 100% culpable) restraint.

I stand by my comments up-thread; for myself and if I had a daughter, it's simply unwise and unsafe to drink to excess at parties and in bars/clubs. It shouldn't be that way, of course it shouldn't - but it is. A purse on the seat of an unlocked car shouldn't get stolen but often times it will. Living in the real world means taking precautions that are correspond to the risk.

 

[disneychrista]

it's simply unwise and unsafe to drink to excess at parties and in bars/clubs.

I agree and for many reason and not just for girls.

 

[luvsJack]

Very true and I'd never argue it. I do think though, that this particular discussion is solely addressing rape victims that have been drinking, so it's not completely out to lunch to factor it in. It adds a whole new level of vulnerability and often happens in an environment that becomes even more perilous because the would-be perpetrators are drinking too; perhaps dulling their (still 100% culpable) restraint.

I stand by my comments up-thread; for myself and if I had a daughter, it's simply unwise and unsafe to drink to excess at parties and in bars/clubs. It shouldn't be that way, of course it shouldn't - but it is. A purse on the seat of an unlocked car shouldn't get stolen but often times it will. Living in the real world means taking precautions that are correspond to the risk.

But if it was your daughter and if one night while in college and away from you, she was talked into going to a club. Someone buys her a drink. A fruity drink and they laugh and say “it’s just one drink. Hardly any alcohol!” She drinks her one drink and gets very intoxicated. Some sleaze ball offers to get her home. On the way he stops and forces her or manipulated her or she is all but passed out and doesn’t remember. What then?

Does she not deserve to be heard? Or is it her fault to be raped because she trusted some would be friend about a drink and a sleaze ball that she thought or her “friends” thought were helping her get home?

These things happen! You cannot guarantee that your child will not drink and accidentally or on purpose get drunk. You just can’t.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Very true and I'd never argue it. I do think though, that this particular discussion is solely addressing rape victims that have been drinking, so it's not completely out to lunch to factor it in. It adds a whole new level of vulnerability and often happens in an environment that becomes even more perilous because the would-be perpetrators are drinking too; perhaps dulling their (still 100% culpable) restraint.

I stand by my comments up-thread; for myself and if I had a daughter, it's simply unwise and unsafe to drink to excess at parties and in bars/clubs. It shouldn't be that way, of course it shouldn't - but it is. A purse on the seat of an unlocked car shouldn't get stolen but often times it will. Living in the real world means taking precautions that are correspond to the risk.

Okay, let’s say we get all women to stop drinking to excess (how is “excess” defined?) at parties and bars/clubs. Women will still be raped, so what’s the next step they should take to protect themselves? I have a friend who was raped by her husband after an evening drinking in their home. I suppose we could argue that women shouldn’t drink at all. Or, with my friend in mind, women shouldn’t be married, or ever alone with a man? I guess if women stopped dating then we wouldn’t have to worry about date rape anymore. But we would still have to worry about rape, in general, so the “advice” and “safety precautions” continue. Don’t dress provocatively. Never let your beverage out of your sight. Don’t go anywhere alone, or at night, stay in busy well-lit areas, carry pepper spray and rape whistles and walk to your car with your phone in your hand ready to dial 911 and your keys positioned between your fingers. Look under the car as you approach, check the back seat before you get in, and lock your doors immediately. Take a self-defense class. Don’t go jogging in broad daylight with earbuds in your ears so you’ll be able to hear the attacker coming up behind you.

Because some men rape, all women are expected to take responsibility for preventing it and the precautions are never ending. Clearly this hasn’t stopped rape from happening, so I think it’s time we took a different approach. Let’s say that because some men rape, now all men are expected to take responsibility for preventing it. Men need to stop drinking. They should no longer go anywhere without a companion to hold them accountable. They need to stay inside after dark and they should never be alone with a woman they could physically overpower.

Would you support that? Do you agree that men should have their daily activities stifled in an effort to prevent rape? Or should we just focus on the ones who are actually causing the problems, the rapists?

 

[ronandannette]

But if it was your daughter and if one night while in college and away from you, she was talked into going to a club. Someone buys her a drink. A fruity drink and they laugh and say “it’s just one drink. Hardly any alcohol!” She drinks her one drink and gets very intoxicated. Some sleaze ball offers to get her home. On the way he stops and forces her or manipulated her or she is all but passed out and doesn’t remember. What then?

Does she not deserve to be heard? Or is it her fault to be raped because she trusted some would be friend about a drink and a sleaze ball that she thought or her “friends” thought were helping her get home?

These things happen! You cannot guarantee that your child will not drink and accidentally or on purpose get drunk. You just can’t.

Of course she does - of course! And the perp "deserves" to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law because he is guilty of a crime, whether or not he himself was drinking. What about my post made you think I'd say otherwise? And my view that not drinking to excess is wise, is said in full view of the fact that just advising it doesn't make it a mandate.

 

[luvsJack]

Of course she does - of course! And the perp "deserves" to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law because he is guilty of a crime, whether or not he himself was drinking. What about my post made you think I'd say otherwise? And my view that not drinking to excess is wise, is said in full view of the fact that just advising it doesn't make it a mandate.

My apologies, I thought you were one of the posters that didn’t agree with these laws concerning consent.

Not drinking to excess is always wise advise to anyone of any age and any gender. So we most definitely agree on that one.

 

[ronandannette]

Okay, let’s say we get all women to stop drinking to excess (how is “excess” defined?) at parties and bars/clubs. Women will still be raped, so what’s the next step they should take to protect themselves? I have a friend who was raped by her husband after an evening drinking in their home. I suppose we could argue that women shouldn’t drink at all. Or, with my friend in mind, women shouldn’t be married, or ever alone with a man? I guess if women stopped dating then we wouldn’t have to worry about date rape anymore. But we would still have to worry about rape, in general, so the “advice” and “safety precautions” continue. Don’t dress provocatively. Never let your beverage out of your sight. Don’t go anywhere alone, or at night, stay in busy well-lit areas, carry pepper spray and rape whistles and walk to your car with your phone in your hand ready to dial 911 and your keys positioned between your fingers. Look under the car as you approach, check the back seat before you get in, and lock your doors immediately. Take a self-defense class. Don’t go jogging in broad daylight with earbuds in your ears so you’ll be able to hear the attacker coming up behind you.

Because some men rape, all women are expected to take responsibility for preventing it and the precautions are never ending. Clearly this hasn’t stopped rape from happening, so I think it’s time we took a different approach. Let’s say that because some men rape, now all men are expected to take responsibility for preventing it. Men need to stop drinking. They should no longer go anywhere without a companion to hold them accountable. They need to stay inside after dark and they should never be alone with a woman they could physically overpower.

Would you support that? Do you agree that men should have their daily activities stifled in an effort to prevent rape? Or should we just focus on the ones who are actually causing the problems, the rapists?

The larger issues here are rather rhetorical - what sort of answer are you looking for? Help me understand what you have in mind by "Or should we just focus on the ones who are actually causing the problems, the rapists?" I absolutely believe rapists (any kind, any time, anywhere) should be prosecuted because they're criminals. And FTR, yes - I also think it's very unwise for men to drink to excess.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

The larger issues here are rather rhetorical - what sort of answer are you looking for? Help me understand what you have in mind by "Or should we just focus on the ones who are actually causing the problems, the rapists?" I absolutely believe rapists (any kind, any time, anywhere) should be prosecuted because they're criminals. And FTR, yes - I also think it's very unwise for men to drink to excess.

It is absurd and ineffective to put the responsibility of preventing rape on women, just as it would be absurd to put that responsibility on the men who don’t commit rape. The rapist, and only the rapist, is responsible for the crime. Discussing it in terms of how vulnerable a woman may have been at the time of the attack — be it drinking, walking alone, parking on a dark street, etc. — distracts from getting to the root of the problem, which is “Why do men rape and how can we stop it?”

Research into sexual assault shows that cultural attitudes, things like toxic masculinity and disdain for women, are the main driving forces behind rape. To address the issue at the root of the problem, that’s what needs to change.

“....the men who committed fewer assaults over time also reported falling rates of impulsivity, hostility toward women, and beliefs that supported rape. The men whose rates of assault were going up, in contrast, reported a growing sense of peer support for forced sex, peer pressure, pornography use, and hostility toward women.”

And if anyone should be told to abstain from alcohol in the interest of preventing rape, it’s men:
“...across a number of studies, perpetrators were more likely to report using alcohol at the time of an assault than victims — 60 to 65 percent of perpetrators compared with 30 to 55 percent of victims.”
Though ultimately, alcohol didn’t make men commit sexual assault, it just gave them the liquid courage to do what they were already inclined to do.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...ty-more-than-alcohol-leads-to-sexual-assault/