Rant about pay

[RamblingMad]

TL : DR the thread, but OP just highlights the problem with increasing the minimum wage to a living wage. When you are fresh out of high school or in college you are working part time and have a place to live. It may be a crowded dorm room or your parents house, but you don't have to make a "living" wage, and "back in my day" you didn't. I had health care through my parents and help with rent through college, where I worked a minimum wage job that paid a lot of, but not all of my expenses - and it was fine, great in fact. I had a lot more disposable income than my friends that chose not to work and lived off of student loans and their parents stipend.

Now, 2022, you rarely hear "minimum wage", its "living wage", and it's unrealistic. The more the part-time HS or college kid gets as a minimum wage, the more the cost of everything has to go up. The "living wage" then has to go up again, the prices go up again, and so on. The only way companies can keep from raising prices is to cut the wages that are not mandated. IOW, the experienced employees who are running the businesses and who really do need benefits and a living wage. The HS and college kids don't need a living wage or benefits but they get them anyway because it's mandated. now neither of them can even afford the product they are selling though because the price just went up to bring in enough income for both of them to be paid this new higher wage.

I hear you though, it should come out of the company profits. Yeah, except it never will. LSS? Be careful what you wish for when you go around demanding a "living wage" for everyone.

Company margins have been increasing for decades. Now, not all businesses have fat margins. But overall corporate margins having been going up, not staying steady.

 

[mrodgers]

I'm all for minimums going up. They have lagged behind inflation for decades. It's ridiculous what employers can get away paying people.

Given the demand for workers, if you're really that close to minimum, I'd look for another job with a union.

Minimum wage started in 1938 at $0.25. That would be $5.03 today, much lower than the minimum wage of today. I agree, we should make sure the minimum wage reflects inflation and take it down from $7.50 to $5.

 

[RamblingMad]

Minimum wage started in 1938 at $0.25. That would be $5.03 today, much lower than the minimum wage of today. I agree, we should make sure the minimum wage reflects inflation and take it down from $7.50 to $5.

This is a historic problem.

https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/flsa1938

 

[mrodgers]

Given the demand for workers, if you're really that close to minimum, I'd look for another job with a union.

A union doesn't solve the issue, a union job is the same issue. You all make the same money whether you are there for 6 months or 30 years.

Just went through a union campaign (didn't get in by 1 vote.) History of our company in other states that they did vote for the union, the wage would be raised to $19/hour, for everyone new and old. The old folks, like me, would be stuck rather than cut down. At average of 3% every 3 year contract as is common, that would put me at I think it was into the 2050's before I would ever see a raise again. I'm not even going to be alive if I live a long life in 2050.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

When all the talk about raising the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour started I and other like-minded people could see the coming problem. If you're going to raise the minimum wage which in turn raises the starting salary of new hires, you should in turn have a rippel pay increase for all those making more than the base rate of pay to keep things equal and fair. It’s only reasonable that everyone should be getting a pay increase but of course that’s not how it works. Businesses are in business to make money; they are not charities and if they don’t make money they don’t stay in business and all those jobs go away. It’s as simple as that.

The current thinking that just increasing the minimum wage is going to solve the problem for those at the bottom of the pay scale is flawed. If all businesses have to pay more to their employers which increases their expenses and affects their bottom line, they either have to charge more for whatever service or thing they make or make less money, possibly lose money. Losing money could potentially put them out of business which equals a loss of jobs. If they raise prices we are right back where we started with the bottom not making a living wage. Round and round we go, it’s like a dog chasing its tail.

The only real answer I see is for people to strive to raise themselves out of minimum wage jobs. Also, the whole idea that a federal minimum wage increase at whatever number you pick is going to be fair IMHO is wrong. The cost of living across the country varies so the buying power of $15 in NYC or LA is much lower then lets say Little Rock AR.

This doesn’t answer the OPs problem, it appears the only option is to get a new job or hold out until you can start collecting your pension then get a new job or retire…. I guess OP needs to determine if the pension is worth staying for, when can they start collecting that pension. Maybe get the pension then get another job that offers a 401K? I never worked for a company that offered a pension, my last job offered a 401K with a very generous match of 6% when I started. Of course over time that match dropped down to around 2% I think. All I know is I made out very well with the 401K system. Would it have been nice to get a pension, you bet but that was never an option for me.
I hope the OP finds the right answer for their situation and that it all works out for the best. Sending you some pixie dust,

TL : DR the thread, but OP just highlights the problem with increasing the minimum wage to a living wage. When you are fresh out of high school or in college you are working part time and have a place to live. It may be a crowded dorm room or your parents house, but you don't have to make a "living" wage, and "back in my day" you didn't. I had health care through my parents and help with rent through college, where I worked a minimum wage job that paid a lot of, but not all of my expenses - and it was fine, great in fact. I had a lot more disposable income than my friends that chose not to work and lived off of student loans and their parents stipend.

Now, 2022, you rarely hear "minimum wage", its "living wage", and it's unrealistic. The more the part-time HS or college kid gets as a minimum wage, the more the cost of everything has to go up. The "living wage" then has to go up again, the prices go up again, and so on. The only way companies can keep from raising prices is to cut the wages that are not mandated. IOW, the experienced employees who are running the businesses and who really do need benefits and a living wage. The HS and college kids don't need a living wage or benefits but they get them anyway because it's mandated. now neither of them can even afford the product they are selling though because the price just went up to bring in enough income for both of them to be paid this new higher wage.

I hear you though, it should come out of the company profits. Yeah, except it never will. LSS? Be careful what you wish for when you go around demanding a "living wage" for everyone.

I agree with both of these, and I won’t even say it’s happening with just smaller companies. An example. DH brought home McDonald’s last month for four of us and was dumbfounded it cost $65! We assumed they charged him wrong and wrote it off. Until the other day we were out and went to a different McDonald’s in the same general area. Just for two of us (basic meals and one burger for the dog) it cost $40! I hadn’t noticed their prices had increased that much because it’s not somewhere we go too often, but it suddenly made sense as they’d been advertising on outdoor signs they were paying up to $22/hr!

I can retire at 51, because I started working for the state at 21.

This is a very nice feature. Will that offset the lower pay? I suspect in 8 yrs you’ll be glad you stayed. Some of us will be slogging it till 67! When I was younger I had an opportunity to take a job like that and I didn’t. (My Dad had been pushing me for it.) There are times over the past few years I’ve kicked myself for not thinking about it more seriously.

 

[RamblingMad]

A union doesn't solve the issue, a union job is the same issue. You all make the same money whether you are there for 6 months or 30 years.

Just went through a union campaign (didn't get in by 1 vote.) History of our company in other states that they did vote for the union, the wage would be raised to $19/hour, for everyone new and old. The old folks, like me, would be stuck rather than cut down. At average of 3% every 3 year contract as is common, that would put me at I think it was into the 2050's before I would ever see a raise again. I'm not even going to be alive if I live a long life in 2050.

The unions helped my dad out in the 70s during the big inflation spikes we experienced. Unions don't have as much power today as they did back then. But I can see them coming back if inflation doesn't get under control. I'm definitely taking a net pay decrease this year after inflation.

I've really only ever experienced big pay increases when changing jobs.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

TL : DR the thread, but OP just highlights the problem with increasing the minimum wage to a living wage. When you are fresh out of high school or in college you are working part time and have a place to live. It may be a crowded dorm room or your parents house, but you don't have to make a "living" wage, and "back in my day" you didn't. I had health care through my parents and help with rent through college, where I worked a minimum wage job that paid a lot of, but not all of my expenses - and it was fine, great in fact. I had a lot more disposable income than my friends that chose not to work and lived off of student loans and their parents stipend.

Now, 2022, you rarely hear "minimum wage", its "living wage", and it's unrealistic. The more the part-time HS or college kid gets as a minimum wage, the more the cost of everything has to go up. The "living wage" then has to go up again, the prices go up again, and so on. The only way companies can keep from raising prices is to cut the wages that are not mandated. IOW, the experienced employees who are running the businesses and who really do need benefits and a living wage. The HS and college kids don't need a living wage or benefits but they get them anyway because it's mandated. now neither of them can even afford the product they are selling though because the price just went up to bring in enough income for both of them to be paid this new higher wage.

I hear you though, it should come out of the company profits. Yeah, except it never will. LSS? Be careful what you wish for when you go around demanding a "living wage" for everyone.

This is exactly why I think there should be a graduated minimum rate of pay, high school students don't need to make a "living" wage and they probably have never held a job before so they have no previous experience to pull from. Thanks for making this point!

Yup, after 27 years and being top 5 in seniority, in 2020 I was the lowest paid worker because I didn't get laid off and kept working while everyone else stayed home and collected an additional $15/hour. People I work with were very upset when they were called back and didn't make that money any more from the government.

I would have loved having a free two month vacation with bonus funds also. But I had to stay and do all of the work of all those who were living the good life back then. Instead of sitting at home making 70% more, I was working twice as much.

I hope your employer realizes what you have done and gives you a bonus or something to show their appreciation for your service. It would be the right thing to do. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

 

[kdonnel]

This seems to fit in with this discussion.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

All I'm saying is that another option is to move to a more worker friendly country such as Norway, where there is far less income inequality and much better employee rights.

America has a long history against taxation even before the country was founded, so it's unlikely we'll ever see anything like Norway's system here. It's not in our DNA.

If I was low income, I'd look to move out of the US.

Easier said than done. Not every country is as easy to enter as the US. Also, what is your tax rate in Norway? People in the US don't like paying taxes.

If folks can come to the US and cope, US folks can move and cope. I don't see what the big deal is about moving. No one said life is easy.

Agree, nobody said life would be easy. That's part of the problem, people want it to be easy but nothing worth having is ever easy.

 

[RamblingMad]

This seems to fit in with this discussion.

View attachment 658440

They're all leaving to chase the money.

Employers have zero clue on how to deal with this today. So a lot of the older ones are retiring and making it even more challenging.

I expect a lot of changes over the next couple of years.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Yup, after 27 years and being top 5 in seniority, in 2020 I was the lowest paid worker because I didn't get laid off and kept working while everyone else stayed home and collected an additional $15/hour. People I work with were very upset when they were called back and didn't make that money any more from the government.

I would have loved having a free two month vacation with bonus funds also. But I had to stay and do all of the work of all those who were living the good life back then. Instead of sitting at home making 70% more, I was working twice as much.

Everyone in our household continued to work during the pandemic. A couple of our neighbors collected. Noticed recently both had new trucks, one a new boat, and the other did major home renovations. DH remarked to me, “We must be doing something wrong” (since we’re all driving older cars here and our house seems to be falling apart eta not to mention, exhausted ). I have a friend whose 20-something son never held an actual job who collected and used the funds as his “golf money”. When DS, the same age, heard that, he was really scratching his head thinking about the miserable job he was doing and the awful commute he had every day, etc. I hadn’t thought much about it until then.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

Everyone in our household continued to work during the pandemic. A couple of our neighbors collected. Noticed recently both had new trucks, one a new boat, and the other did major home renovations. DH remarked to me, “We must be doing something wrong” (since we’re all driving older cars here and our house seems to be falling apart eta not to mention, exhausted ). I have a friend whose 20-something son never held an actual job who collected and used the funds as his “golf money”. When DS, the same age, heard that, he was really scratching his head thinking about the miserable job he was doing and the awful commute he had every day, etc. I hadn’t thought much about it until then.

Sickening isn't it?

 

[dez1978]

This is a very nice feature. Will that offset the lower pay? I suspect in 8 yrs you’ll be glad you stayed. Some of us will be slogging it till 67! When I was younger I had an opportunity to take a job like that and I didn’t. (My Dad had been pushing me for it.) There are times over the past few years I’ve kicked myself for not thinking about it more seriously.

Here we have what they call 80 and out. Its where your years of service plus your age equal 80. That is your eligible retire date. Or atleast thats the system I am under. Its since changed to 90 and out, along with some other changes. I'm not sure that it will offset the lower pay. I am fortunate that I can choose to stay here instead of chasing a higher pay. At some point in the last 20 some years, I realized I was as George Strait put it "in too deep to pull out now" lol. Like I got to a point where what I'd gain in wages would likely be offset by losing time off and more expensive insurance etc. But that situation is not the same for younger employees who are under 10 years of service. They aren't vested for retirement, they haven't hit the increased time accrual yet, etc.

 

[RamblingMad]

Everyone in our household continued to work during the pandemic. A couple of our neighbors collected. Noticed recently both had new trucks, one a new boat, and the other did major home renovations. DH remarked to me, “We must be doing something wrong” (since we’re all driving older cars here and our house seems to be falling apart eta not to mention, exhausted ). I have a friend whose 20-something son never held an actual job who collected and used the funds as his “golf money”. When DS, the same age, heard that, he was really scratching his head thinking about the miserable job he was doing and the awful commute he had every day, etc. I hadn’t thought much about it until then.

It's all about net worth at the end of the day. Instead of spending like crazy during the pandemic, I invested heavily. Now, I'm much closer to my FI number. Financial independence is more important to me than stuff. It's all about priorities.

 

[kdonnel]

They're all leaving to chase the money.

Employers have zero clue on how to deal with this today. So a lot of the older ones are retiring and making it even more challenging.

I expect a lot of changes over the next couple of years.

The smart employees realize that loyalty to a company makes no sense.

I never understood why it is not ok to give zero notice when quitting, but perfectly fine for a company to let people go with zero notice.

Employers count on you staying because change is hard. People want easy, not hard.

 

[dez1978]

The smart employees realize that loyalty to a company makes no sense.

I never understood why it is not ok to give zero notice when quitting, but perfectly fine for a company to let people go with zero notice.

Employees count on you staying because change is hard. People want easy, not hard.

As someone currently doing my job plus the job of the person who just stopped showing up, I'd have appreciated a little heads up just so that I could have learned her job a little better before I started having to do it. I don't blame her at all for quitting, not in the least. Tho her quitting had more to do with who she was caught sleeping with (shocker, not her husband who also works here), not the job itself. Bc you are right, the place isn't loyal to us at all, but as coworkers we were always loyal to each other as a group. We always had each others backs and helped each other out as a team. And quitting without notice isn't fair to the rest of the team. But I also realize that all depends on the work atmosphere. Some places aren't as team dependant.

 

[kdonnel]

As someone currently doing my job plus the job of the person who just stopped showing up, I'd have appreciated a little heads up just so that I could have learned her job a little better before I started having to do it. I don't blame her at all for quitting, not in the least. Tho her quitting had more to do with who she was caught sleeping with (shocker, not her husband who also works here), not the job itself. Bc you are right, the place isn't loyal to us at all, but as coworkers we were always loyal to each other as a group. We always had each others backs and helped each other out as a team. And quitting without notice isn't fair to the rest of the team. But I also realize that all depends on the work atmosphere. Some places aren't as team dependant.

I like the people I work with but I am not going to factor in how easy the transfer of my job to another is into my decision making process. I choose my jobs based on what is best for me and my family. I expect that all the people I work with make decisions in the same manner. I expect that my employer will use similar logic when making decisions.

 

[dez1978]

I like the people I work with but I am not going to factor in how easy the transfer of my job to another is into my decision making process. I choose my jobs based on what is best for me and my family. I expect that all the people I work with make decisions in the same manner. I expect that my employer will use similar logic when making decisions.

I would never just leave my coworkers screwed just bc it's whats best for me. Me staying at one job for 2 weeks longer is not going to be a signifigant hardship for me or my family. And most jobs expect that you would need to give 2 weeks notice to your current employer before starting your new job. I wouldn't stay past that 2 weeks, but I'm not just going to leave without notice and not give them access to any of my notes or anything that would make their taking over my job easier for them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The smart employees realize that loyalty to a company makes no sense.

My mom and I had this big discussion in October/November 2020. I was raised, as she was, on the mentality to stay stay stay. But staying hasn't really been the corporate mantra in a good while. What I mean by that is employees stuck around far too long at places for no reason other than a pressure that if they didn't put in hard work and stick it out they were a lesser employee, people who job hopped were seen as unreliable.

My mom came to the conclusion loyalty ain't nothing when she was forcibly laid off in December 2020 because she was older than 55 and had worked for the company for more than 5 years. She was several months shy of 40 years there and had planned on retiring there. That earlier conversation about pay being lower? Yeah her job was available again in a few weeks...for less pay (a decent amount really).

There is def. a point where you're job hopping too much but it's slowly (although sped up very fast with this pandemic) becoming more acceptable for people to not use loyalty to a company who usually doesn't reciprocate in the end as a main reason to stay.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But I also realize that all depends on the work atmosphere. Some places aren't as team dependant.

I tend to think it's much more about what your job role is rather than a workplace culture.

None of the jobs I have held was I handing work to other employees, we didn't have that structure. My husband leaving his job it wasn't his place to just decide to hand off work to someone because the project leader was the one who determined who the work was going to sometimes they pulled someone completely new in. People were pulled off a project in a moment's notice too it happens. Even if you gave 1 day's notice you still can't just hand off work to someone because you don't know if that's what their role will be taking on what were your tasks. It's def. stressful picking up someone else's work though.

Professionalism typically dictates a 2 week notice but only in workplaces where shared work such that you're talking about exists should really any employee think about other employees like that. You could be the best of friends with someone but at the end of the day it's really your business that you're leaving. If you tell your immediate boss it should really be them who figures out the rest.