Rant about pay

[MillauFr]

Assuming that unions are legal in your state. They're banned in many places.

There are no states in America where unions are banned.

 

[Sinder]

This is an American problem. Other countries provide much better rights to their workers.

It’s a combination of things. It’s a government, societal and economic problem.
I’m sure it’s not just limited to the US.
This whole issue is complex and nobody here on the DIS has all the answers and we will do nothing but go back and forth arguing our points. I’m on DIS points probation so there’s no way to continue the discussion without violating some DIS rules and I’m not willing to risk that today.

 

[Orion Nebula]

You say fault, but it’s responsibility.
Why are other people like your employer responsible for making sure you can survive on your salary?
And please save the their so out of touch stuff, you don’t know me or know where I came from.
I think the problem is people don’t like to hear the truth from those who have been there and fixed it because then they don’t have to face the reality that it can be done.
And that’s what is really sad.

Do you even work? I haven't heard anyone try and defend the employers not keeping up with the cost of living before. It is in fact their responsibly to pay fair wages, and maintain those wages over time. You can't hire someone in at "X" amount, wait 20 years then ignore the fact that they are actually making less than when hired. In some cases a lot less... and most people build their lives around income. So you were able to climb your way out of whatever pit you ended up in in. Good for you. But sadly a lot of people put everything they have into a career. Years of education, money, time and sometimes even mental health all in order to fight for better opportunities (and that's not always enough). The idea that they can just walk away from that and end up "fixing" their situations is absurd. The real world doesn't work that way.

 

[pookybean]

Retired State of CA employee here. I think the bottom line is, if the cost of living has risen $3 for minimum wage, then the cost of living for other seasoned/trained employees increased also. While someone may not agree, it is a fact that the more you make, your lifestyle changes. Not to say the $20 a hour is living beyond their means but probably more job stable so bought a home, had some kids whereas the $13 hr may be fresh out of mom/dad's house or renting an apartment. Taxes have gone up, feeding, clothing and medical for the kids have gone up. Yet, because the state isn't mandated to raise their pay, they don't. I know other people have said previously that state workers cannot negotiate their pay. In CA it's in the State Administration Manual our pay scales. Those only change when our union negotiates a raise (or you get your merit raise which mine ended in 1 year) or if you promote to a higher class. When I left in 1990 and returned in 2004, my pay had only gone up $100. That's how poorly the raises are. The good thing about working for the state (at least in CA), we have a excellent retirement and medical. I make more now retired (with pension and ss) and I pay zero for medical deductions out of my check (I do have to pay $15 co pay at dr and $5 pharmacy).

Im a state employee also, and this is why I stay. I only have about 7 yrs in right now and Im older but not much retirement savings from other jobs. Im hoping I can stick it out for another 20 years to have a decent pension and insurance! Our union has started talking about increasing wages and higher step raises/colas for our next contract... fingers crossed!

 

[amylevan]

Do you even work? I haven't heard anyone try and defend the employers not keeping up with the cost of living before. It is in fact their responsibly to pay fair wages, and maintain those wages over time. You can't hire someone in at "X" amount, wait 20 years then ignore the fact that they are actually making less than when hired. In some cases a lot less... and most people build their lives around income. So you were able to climb your way out of whatever pit you ended up in in. Good for you. But sadly a lot of people put everything they have into a career. Years of education, money, time and sometimes even mental health all in order to fight for better opportunities (and that's not always enough). The idea that they can just walk away from that and end up "fixing" their situations is absurd. The real world doesn't work that way.

All that time, education, money, etc, can’t go with you to a new job with a new employer that pays more? Isn’t that how the real world works?
If an employer is not keeping up with salaries, then the employees leave and find different jobs, forcing the employer to either lose its most valuable asset (good employees), pay more, or even go out of business.

 

[RangerPooh]

I remind myself that while the pay sucks (still the highest of other education institutions around here, which is still sad) I'm here for the benefits.

• Decent insurance, but our minuscule pay increase was negated by rising insurance costs.
• Tuition benefits.
  • They're paying the credit hours for me to return to get another masters degree. I pay for books, course fees, and have to work it into my free time.
  • Tuition benefit for family. Provided I'm still here when my kids enter college, they will pay half the tuition for my kids to attend a public college/university in our state.
• Pension. But we'll see if it still exists. I'm close to being vested at almost 5 years.
• We did get a 1% pay increase this year after a pay freeze. See note about insurance going up.

 

[GreatLakes]

Do you even work? I haven't heard anyone try and defend the employers not keeping up with the cost of living before. It is in fact their responsibly to pay fair wages, and maintain those wages over time. You can't hire someone in at "X" amount, wait 20 years then ignore the fact that they are actually making less than when hired. In some cases a lot less... and most people build their lives around income. So you were able to climb your way out of whatever pit you ended up in in. Good for you. But sadly a lot of people put everything they have into a career. Years of education, money, time and sometimes even mental health all in order to fight for better opportunities (and that's not always enough). The idea that they can just walk away from that and end up "fixing" their situations is absurd. The real world doesn't work that way.

I'm not sure what you mean by this rant. If a person doesn't like their job, company culture, work/life balance, or anything else they can (and should) take their marketable job skills to a company that has company values aligned with theirs. Some places are high pressure and long hours, others are more laid back and value work/life balance, still others pay over the average wage but require more time, while others might have a lower salary but offset it with other perks including better life balance and better benefits.

In every job interview any candidate should be interviewing the company for fit with as much rigor as that company is interviewing them for fit. I never understood why people stay in bad situations. I get not leaving with no job but why wouldn't they continue to work while they look for something more aligned with their values? There are plenty of jobs out there assuming you've made sure you had the skills to do them.

 

[Ms.Minnie]

When all the talk about raising the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour started I and other like-minded people could see the coming problem. If you're going to raise the minimum wage which in turn raises the starting salary of new hires, you should in turn have a rippel pay increase for all those making more than the base rate of pay to keep things equal and fair. It’s only reasonable that everyone should be getting a pay increase but of course that’s not how it works. Businesses are in business to make money; they are not charities and if they don’t make money they don’t stay in business and all those jobs go away. It’s as simple as that.

The current thinking that just increasing the minimum wage is going to solve the problem for those at the bottom of the pay scale is flawed. If all businesses have to pay more to their employers which increases their expenses and affects their bottom line, they either have to charge more for whatever service or thing they make or make less money, possibly lose money. Losing money could potentially put them out of business which equals a loss of jobs. If they raise prices we are right back where we started with the bottom not making a living wage. Round and round we go, it’s like a dog chasing its tail.

The only real answer I see is for people to strive to raise themselves out of minimum wage jobs. Also, the whole idea that a federal minimum wage increase at whatever number you pick is going to be fair IMHO is wrong. The cost of living across the country varies so the buying power of $15 in NYC or LA is much lower then lets say Little Rock AR.

This doesn’t answer the OPs problem, it appears the only option is to get a new job or hold out until you can start collecting your pension then get a new job or retire…. I guess OP needs to determine if the pension is worth staying for, when can they start collecting that pension. Maybe get the pension then get another job that offers a 401K? I never worked for a company that offered a pension, my last job offered a 401K with a very generous match of 6% when I started. Of course over time that match dropped down to around 2% I think. All I know is I made out very well with the 401K system. Would it have been nice to get a pension, you bet but that was never an option for me.
I hope the OP finds the right answer for their situation and that it all works out for the best. Sending you some pixie dust,

 

[Orion Nebula]

All that time, education, money, etc, can’t go with you to a new job with a new employer that pays more? Isn’t that how the real world works?
If an employer is not keeping up with salaries, then the employees leave and find different jobs, forcing the employer to either lose its most valuable asset (good employees), pay more, or even go out of business.

No it doesn't work that way for everyone. Pay is commonly fairly consistent across the board in many fields. And there are some also that are more niche, so people's skills aren't very adaptable outside of it. And no companies don't go out of business if they don't pay more. If that was true most companies would be out of business. I work for my families moderately sized company that employs several professions. My dad and grandfather aren't / weren't exactly the most "flexible" people. They always paid what they felt was fair. But I have seen many good people walk out. But somehow we have managed to stick around for over 60 years.

A lot of people obviously work in differing fields. Some of which most have easy ways to solve the wage problem. Which is great.

 

[bbeagle]

I never understood why people stay in bad situations. I get not leaving with no job but why wouldn't they continue to work while they look for something more aligned with their values?

It's 'easier' to go home from work and relax...... instead of updating a resume, getting a nice outfit to interview, looking for jobs, applying for jobs, interviewing, handling rejection, etc.

I think this is why many people stay at jobs they don't like. Until there is some last straw that really upsets them, they won't put in the effort.

 

[RamblingMad]

It’s a combination of things. It’s a government, societal and economic problem.
I’m sure it’s not just limited to the US.
This whole issue is complex and nobody here on the DIS has all the answers and we will do nothing but go back and forth arguing our points. I’m on DIS points probation so there’s no way to continue the discussion without violating some DIS rules and I’m not willing to risk that today.

All I'm saying is that another option is to move to a more worker friendly country such as Norway, where there is far less income inequality and much better employee rights.

America has a long history against taxation even before the country was founded, so it's unlikely we'll ever see anything like Norway's system here. It's not in our DNA.

If I was low income, I'd look to move out of the US.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

If I was low income, I'd look to move out of the US.

Of course, if you were low-income, you couldn't afford to move.

 

[KatheeME]

1st I'll admit, this sounds spoiled, I'm aware. So our state recently changed the pay scale for state employees so that the minimum was $15/hr for the bottom of the payscale. So lots of job classes got over$3/hr raise. I already made $2.50/hr more than they did because my job class is a higher pay scale. However, now, I only make .41 more than the bottom of the payscale. So 21 years experience, education, in a job doing complex clerical skills (idk how else to word that lol) etc and I only get paid .41 more per hour now than someone who starts tomorrow with no experience, not even a ged required, preportioning already cooked food. I'm not saying they don't deserve that raise, bc they certainly do. But those of us above that minimum certainly got screwed. I'm grateful for the raise I got for sure. But man.... .41/hr for a whole lot more responsibility and headache surely doesn't seem worth it today. Esp when I'm already doing the work of what should be 3 different ppl right now.

I could have written this comment. Due to working in healthcare, staffing shortages, pandemic unemployment levels, I now only make $2 dollars more an hour than the hospital system new minimum wage. This is after nearly 25 years here, great yearly reviews, working through the pandemic, and having to adapt many, many times within my job responsibilities. I too am grateful for the raises I have been giving, but it is disheartening at same. I too am doing the job of 2 now. Sigh. I stay because I am close to retirement, good health care, and lots of PTO.

 

[RamblingMad]

Of course, if you were low-income, you couldn't afford to move.

This basically says that the minimum is too minimum if it constrains employee movement. I think, $15/hr is way too low of a minimum. I'd raise that to at least $25/hr.

 

[Katiebird]

If I was low income, I'd look to move out of the US.

Are you aware of the requirements of getting a work visa for another country? Or of the cost of said visa plus the cost of actually moving, learning another language, etc?

 

[Orion Nebula]

I'm not sure what you mean by this rant. If a person doesn't like their job, company culture, work/life balance, or anything else they can (and should) take their marketable job skills to a company that has company values aligned with theirs. Some places are high pressure and long hours, others are more laid back and value work/life balance, still others pay over the average wage but require more time, while others might have a lower salary but offset it with other perks including better life balance and better benefits.

In every job interview any candidate should be interviewing the company for fit with as much rigor as that company is interviewing them for fit. I never understood why people stay in bad situations. I get not leaving with no job but why wouldn't they continue to work while they look for something more aligned with their values? There are plenty of jobs out there assuming you've made sure you had the skills to do them.

The opportunities are not there for everyone. It's highly dependent on the field and demand. And in many instances employers don't vary there pay that much from one another. At least not enough to get people back into the position they were years ago. I don't know what field you or some others are in. But it honestly sounds amazing to have the option of walking out and improving your life overnight as desired. And those who won't are just lazy (as someone else said). And in case anyone doesn't know, some fields even in 2022 are still competitive.

 

[Lumpy1106]

TL : DR the thread, but OP just highlights the problem with increasing the minimum wage to a living wage. When you are fresh out of high school or in college you are working part time and have a place to live. It may be a crowded dorm room or your parents house, but you don't have to make a "living" wage, and "back in my day" you didn't. I had health care through my parents and help with rent through college, where I worked a minimum wage job that paid a lot of, but not all of my expenses - and it was fine, great in fact. I had a lot more disposable income than my friends that chose not to work and lived off of student loans and their parents stipend.

Now, 2022, you rarely hear "minimum wage", its "living wage", and it's unrealistic. The more the part-time HS or college kid gets as a minimum wage, the more the cost of everything has to go up. The "living wage" then has to go up again, the prices go up again, and so on. The only way companies can keep from raising prices is to cut the wages that are not mandated. IOW, the experienced employees who are running the businesses and who really do need benefits and a living wage. The HS and college kids don't need a living wage or benefits but they get them anyway because it's mandated. now neither of them can even afford the product they are selling though because the price just went up to bring in enough income for both of them to be paid this new higher wage.

I hear you though, it should come out of the company profits. Yeah, except it never will. LSS? Be careful what you wish for when you go around demanding a "living wage" for everyone.

 

[dez1978]

When all the talk about raising the federal minimum wage to $15 per hour started I and other like-minded people could see the coming problem. If you're going to raise the minimum wage which in turn raises the starting salary of new hires, you should in turn have a rippel pay increase for all those making more than the base rate of pay to keep things equal and fair. It’s only reasonable that everyone should be getting a pay increase but of course that’s not how it works. Businesses are in business to make money; they are not charities and if they don’t make money they don’t stay in business and all those jobs go away. It’s as simple as that.

The current thinking that just increasing the minimum wage is going to solve the problem for those at the bottom of the pay scale is flawed. If all businesses have to pay more to their employers which increases their expenses and affects their bottom line, they either have to charge more for whatever service or thing they make or make less money, possibly lose money. Losing money could potentially put them out of business which equals a loss of jobs. If they raise prices we are right back where we started with the bottom not making a living wage. Round and round we go, it’s like a dog chasing its tail.

The only real answer I see is for people to strive to raise themselves out of minimum wage jobs. Also, the whole idea that a federal minimum wage increase at whatever number you pick is going to be fair IMHO is wrong. The cost of living across the country varies so the buying power of $15 in NYC or LA is much lower then lets say Little Rock AR.

This doesn’t answer the OPs problem, it appears the only option is to get a new job or hold out until you can start collecting your pension then get a new job or retire…. I guess OP needs to determine if the pension is worth staying for, when can they start collecting that pension. Maybe get the pension then get another job that offers a 401K? I never worked for a company that offered a pension, my last job offered a 401K with a very generous match of 6% when I started. Of course over time that match dropped down to around 2% I think. All I know is I made out very well with the 401K system. Would it have been nice to get a pension, you bet but that was never an option for me.
I hope the OP finds the right answer for their situation and that it all works out for the best. Sending you some pixie dust,

I am the OP, and I actually agree with all of this. Having owned businesses, I know how hard this is on small businesses. Especially restaraunts who are not only dealing with having to sometimes double their wages, but also dealing with the crazy inflation on goods. I think that changes some with governments and giant corporations, which is something I've always said. The same rules cannot apply to small businesses and corporations like Walmart.

I can retire at 51, because I started working for the state at 21. I have 8 years until then, so likely I will stay here. I really do (mostly) enjoy my job. I have decent insurance, tho def not as good as it was when I started. There are def benefits to staying. That doesn't mean that I, and honestly every single clerical person here that I've talked to, isn't salty about the pay situation. The paycheck we get this week will be the 1st check with the new pay rates, so likely many people don't even realize yet what the new rates are. I expect by next week there will be a lot more upset people. Here, govt employee salaries are public record. I can look up anyone here by name and see what their current gross pay is for this pay period and YTD, so it's not a thing where ppl are expected to keep it to themselves.

 

[mrodgers]

I was reading something recently that also talked about people who’ve been out there working throughout the whole pandemic really getting kind of the short end of the stick, with “new hires” getting incentives and the like. I thought it was an interesting point.

Yup, after 27 years and being top 5 in seniority, in 2020 I was the lowest paid worker because I didn't get laid off and kept working while everyone else stayed home and collected an additional $15/hour. People I work with were very upset when they were called back and didn't make that money any more from the government.

I would have loved having a free two month vacation with bonus funds also. But I had to stay and do all of the work of all those who were living the good life back then. Instead of sitting at home making 70% more, I was working twice as much.

 

[RamblingMad]

Are you aware of the requirements of getting a work visa for another country? Or of the cost of said visa plus the cost of actually moving, learning another language, etc?

If folks can come to the US and cope, US folks can move and cope. I don't see what the big deal is about moving. No one said life is easy.