PVB Tower Charts, Sales Date and more!!!

[hockeydad21]

But bay lake tower is a lot cheaper than both grand and poly. So it’s not just location. Copper creek couldn’t have higher points for rooms than boulder ridge since they were in the same resort most likely. I don’t know all the reasons they do points the way they are.

I feel like something changed between BLT and grand Floridian opening and DVD got the idea they could jack up point charts a lot

Copper Creek could have absolutely had a significantly higher points chart than Boulder Ridge given that it’s an entirely different association, they just chose to do the right thing instead though. Clearly they didn’t choose the high road this time around.

 

[WinterSolider]

Clearly they didn’t choose the high road this time around.

They did the exact same thing though?

Studios are priced exactly the same except for the premium view category, for which there's no analogue at Poly 1.

 

[Mouseforward]

RIV pretty much blew the whole " cash rates = points " argument. RIV has an inflated point chart and since it is inarguably not as good of a location than BCV or BWV and the point charts are not close.

 

[Brian Noble]

RIV pretty much blew the whole " cash rates = points " argument. RIV has an inflated point chart and since it is inarguably not as good of a location than BCV or BWV and the point charts are not close.

But it is (more or less) reflected in cash rates, and that was the claim.

A week at BWV in a P/G studio (what I'd consider equivalent to "standard" view at Riviera) during my normal late Feb/early Mar week is about $5600 rack rate. It takes 139 points, or about $40.32/pt. That same week in a Standard view at Riviera is about $6400 rack, it takes 155 points, and works out to about $41.41. If anything, the Riviera studio is under-pointed, and 159 would be closer to getting the ratio right.

 

[WinterSolider]

RIV pretty much blew the whole " cash rates = points " argument. RIV has an inflated point chart and since it is inarguably not as good of a location than BCV or BWV and the point charts are not close.

Riviera Deluxe Studio Standard View booked with cash on Labor Day is $806.

Beach Club is $650.

Boardwalk is $710.

Riviera being pointed higher than Beach Club and Boardwalk is entirely consistent with cash rates.

 

[WinterSolider]

But it is (more or less) reflected in cash rates, and that was the claim.

A week at BWV in a P/G studio (what I'd consider equivalent to "standard" view at Riviera) during my normal late Feb/early Mar week is about $5600 rack rate. It takes 139 points, or about $40.32/pt. That same week in a Standard view at Riviera is about $6400 rack, it takes 155 points, and works out to about $41.41. If anything, the Riviera studio is under-pointed, and 159 would be closer to getting the ratio right.

There are some major outliers of course.

Boardwalk Standard View, all of Old Key West, and Animal Kingdom Value are under-pointed pretty significantly. Something like Aulani Poolside Garden View jumps out as being pretty badly over-pointed.

 

[CastAStone]

Agreed, but my experience has shown me that managers work based on this bonus cycle’s KPIs.

Disney didn’t work like that until the late 2000s and even then it phased in slowly. It’s been frustrating to watch the progression.

I’ve worked at publicly traded companies that are good at balancing the short and long term and ones that aren’t. Disney used to be the best at it in the early Eisner era and even the early Iger era and the short term has become much more of an issue lately as they’ve become reliant on Parks instead of cable for bottom line growth.

Do we really think points won’t sell because the TPV rooms are expensive?

No. I think 2 DVCs from now might sell poorly though because we’ll all hear the higher guest dissatisfaction from a highway preferred view room at poly being exorbitant or a turn-left-at-the-edge-of-the-balcony-and-grab-the-binoculars-Theme-Park-View being even worse.

And even if I’m wrong and it’s good business, It’s still greedy. And it’s still garbage.

 

[Sandisw]

Agreed. I think the theme park view rooms are going to be the last the book up unless we're talking about July 4th and New Years. It'll be a mad scramble to get the standard view rooms at 11 months, and then after that most PVB owners will begrudgingly take the preferred rooms, and then come the 7 month window the non-PVB owners will scoop up the theme park view rooms as a "bucket list" vacation room or a special occasion.

The fact that they're even labeling the golf course view as "preferred" is laughable, and they should be ashamed. You'll have to look past a parking lot, monorail, and a busy road just to maybe see an average golfer 200+ yards away chunk it and then 3 putt. What a joke.

Those theme park view rooms are so heavily points inflated, it's really going to take seriously wealthy new buyers and/or people with tons of sleep around points from other resorts in order to fill them. This points chart will not be looked upon favorably as time passes.

I just had a thought...maybe part of the reason they did indeed roll it into PVB instead of new resort was so they could do such high point values for theme park view, knowing that all resale owners would be eligible to use points there and if they dont, they can sell as cash?

Unless one buys a favorite week, you are buying for the resort, and not a specific room/view....so, this just adds more point heavy inventory (like the bungalows) that give them more points to sell?

 

[walt34]

^This! They really run the risk of damaging the DVC brand long term if they make this poly points chart mistake with the next 2 builds. I have zero doubts there are going to be a lot of annoyed PVB owners in the next 5 years when all that’s left at the 10 month mark are theme park view rooms with a 60% points surcharge. It’s bad for 95% of your customers.

I don't think this particular problem with PVB will be repeated with the next resort. The reason is probably that they would have liked to increase the standard studio price as well but couldn't because the existing owners would have revolted. So they increased the new room types a bit more. The next resort will probably be better balanced and PVB will probably be rebalanced in time.

 

[Brian Noble]

The simplest explanation--and therefore IMO the most likely--is that the point values for studios in two of the views had already been determined, because they were rolling into an existing association. Once those values are set, the rest just sort of falls out using their "normal" point-allocation scheme.

 

[Sandisw]

This has been debunked a million times.

There is no points chart inflation. Points chart differences across resorts are entirely explained by comparable cash price differences across resorts.

More recent properties have tended to be more expensive than older properties because they've been monorail and Skyliner, not because newer points charts are higher as a rule.

If Reflections is a "normal" DVC property with Studios, 1BR, 2BR, and 3BRGV, its points chart is going to look like Copper Creek and Boulder Ridge, not Poly.

I actuall took that original comment as a way to imply what you are saying...point charts go up because cash prices go up....not that they just raise them for the heck of it

I think that is why the 2042 resorts will not be extended for the sole reason of having a point chart that reflects the cash price than the cash price that existed when those resorts were built.

In terms of Reflections? Since that will be a brand new resort, and unique, I do not see its point chart or cash rates to be anywhere near CCV/BRV. I just toured Grand Destino Tower at Coronado, and for something located at moderate location, its deluxe aspect (and room prices to boot) is outstanding...I expect Reflections (assuming it is built) to be the same.

 

[AstroBlasters]

Disney didn’t work like that until the late 2000s and even then it phased in slowly. It’s been frustrating to watch the progression.

I’ve worked at publicly traded companies that are good at balancing the short and long term and ones that aren’t. Disney used to be the best at it in the early Eisner era and even the early Iger era and the short term has become much more of an issue lately as they’ve become reliant on Parks instead of cable for bottom line growth.




No. I think 2 DVCs from now might sell poorly though because we’ll all hear the higher guest dissatisfaction from a highway preferred view room at poly being exorbitant or a turn-left-at-the-edge-of-the-balcony-and-grab-the-binoculars-Theme-Park-View being even worse.

And even if I’m wrong and it’s good business, It’s still greedy. And it’s still garbage.

I think part of this is me projecting the ridiculousness I have seen in my own career where I watch people get promoted who have an unsustainable process that juices the numbers for a year or two (by increasing sales or cutting costs) and then they are promoted to something different.

Those managers then recognize this and relate it to being a “go getter” and look to promote someone similar.

Eventually it leads to a senior management talking about long term mission statements and principles while middle management acts like it’s on a different planet because that’s not how they are being incentivized to act.

I actually was just in a “leadership council” meeting where they asked if there was a point to our mission statement and I responded that it was just an MBA exercise because my KPIs are all short term and I know that is what they will use to determine my compensation….. hey…. they said they wanted candor and honesty…..

 

[GADisneyDad14]

The fact that they're even labeling the golf course view as "preferred" is laughable, and they should be ashamed. You'll have to look past a parking lot, monorail, and a busy road just to maybe see an average golfer 200+ yards away chunk it and then 3 putt. What a joke.

Not arguing with you - your opinion is certainly valid - just providing another thought. As one of those average golfers who has spent a lot of time hacking my way around that course and watching the Tower come to fruition, IMHO there are some pretty nice view corridors, at least from the golf course. I too have concerns about an eventual 4-lane Floridian Way, but perhaps being between two eventual roundabouts will keep speeds somewhat in check. It's a shame the road widening and golf course work still looks to be with us for awhile, plus Poly front entrance re-routing and bus lane expansion work (which hasn't started) - sure would have been nice for all of that to be done along with the Tower opening. Unless traffic noise turns out to be a more serious issue (this seems like one of the closest buildings on property to a major roadway, I think?) - long term I think the views will be pretty nice as you get higher in the tower (but certainly will be more like construction views for a bit).

 

[CastAStone]

I think part of this is me projecting the ridiculousness I have seen in my own career where I watch people get promoted who have an unsustainable process that juices the numbers for a year or two (by increasing sales or cutting costs) and then they are promoted to something different.

Those managers then recognize this and relate it to being a “go getter” and look to promote someone similar.

Eventually it leads to a senior management talking about long term mission statements and principles while middle management acts like it’s on a different planet because that’s not how they are being incentivized to act.

Now This I entirely agree with.

 

[Tatebeck]

In this hypo, they're just going to flip the resorts and resell them as new contracts expiring in like 2092?

Yes, I would expect the points charts to be very much the same. Disney will capture their price increase because by then they'll be selling contracts for $400 per point. DVC inflation comes from price-per-point much more than points-per-night.

DVC doesn't work if the points charts are out of whack with one another. If "points charts inflation" were a thing, then we would be seeing loads of availability for Grand Floridian at 7 months and none for Old Key West and Saratoga Springs. The older resorts aren't cheaper because they're older, they're cheaper because they're less desirable.

ETA: I mentioned recently in another thread, there are some outliers. Boardwalk Standard View is too cheap. Old Key West is too cheap. The Bungalows are probably too expensive. But a Poly studio relative to a Saratoga Springs studio, for example, is in line with demand.

This has been debunked a million times.

There is no points chart inflation. Points chart differences across resorts are entirely explained by comparable cash price differences across resorts.

More recent properties have tended to be more expensive than older properties because they've been monorail and Skyliner, not because newer points charts are higher as a rule.

If Reflections is a "normal" DVC property with Studios, 1BR, 2BR, and 3BRGV, its points chart is going to look like Copper Creek and Boulder Ridge, not Poly.

Riviera Deluxe Studio Standard View booked with cash on Labor Day is $806.

Beach Club is $650.

Boardwalk is $710.

Riviera being pointed higher than Beach Club and Boardwalk is entirely consistent with cash rates.

I would all but guarantee (around 99.9% sure) that if BCV or BWV opened today they would have higher point charts than they currently do.
In general, point chart inflation is pretty easy to see.

From your own example,
Cash price difference between RIV and BWV?
Riviera is 113.5% the cash price of Boardwalk

Riviera Studio Standard Point that day? 14 points
BWV Studio Standard points for that day? 9 Points

Point cost difference? Riv is 155.5% the point price for that same night

I wonder where the extra 42% increase came from if point chart differences are "entirely" explained by cash price differences?

It's multifactorial. Point charts do trend with cash prices (which should help account for location differences, amenities, etc), but they also tend to be higher at the newer resorts compared to the older resorts. Between two resorts made at the same time, the one with a better location, better amenities, etc will definitely create a higher point chart. But 2 different resorts with similar good/bad locations or amenities opened years apart I think show that the newer resort will usually have slightly higher point charts, unless it was adding onto a previous resort. Like BPK or PIT (added on in the same association) or CCV (added onto Wilderness lodge/Boulder ridge but a new association because BRV was expiring so soon)

If a resort proves to be crazy popular beyond what Disney expects, they can raise the cash prices of the rooms, but they cannot raise the point costs after the fact. It's in Disney's interest to raise the point charts a bit over time, and it can act like a bit of insurance.
Did you notice that the rooms that you feel are underpriced were older resorts? They wouldn't feel that way if the newer resorts didn't typically increase the points costs over time

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

Maybe you missed it but I said they can't do it "at will". There are reasons that exist in the contract that can happen that could force a resort to have to be removed, some that may not be in the control of DVD.

The point is that the DVC resort agreement lays out the terms and that trading is guaranteed only by those terms. Not everyone understands that trading is a function of the arrangement of BVTC and not a guaranteed right like you have at your home resort.

Its like the borrowing restriction DVC put in place in 2020...people were very upset because they never knew that DVC has the power to change those rules...

As I said, I agree that this is not likely to ever happen unless it has to happen, but the question was "could they" not "will they". I will find the language from one of the POS documents so people can see the reasons.

ETA: Here they are...from VGF POS: (bolding is mine)

BVTC may, in its sole disaetion, delete all or a portion of an existing DVC Resort due to casualty where any ofthe affec'ted Vacation Homes or related facilities are not reconstrucled or replaced.

BWTC may, in its sole discretion, delete all or a portion of any existing DVC Resort where an eminent domain action has taken place and where any of the afiected Vacation Homes or related facilities are not replaced.

BWtC may,initssole,absoluteandunfettereddiscretion,delete an existing DVC Resort pursuant to the specific termination rights maintained in each individual DVC Resort Agreement. A DVC Resort also will be automatically deleted upon theexpiration or earlier terminatlon of the term of its Vacation Ownership Plan

And here is the section that let's an owner know up front that if any of those happen, no trading will be happening.

In the event that a DVC Resort is deleted, all Club Members at the deleted DVC Resort will no longer be able toparticipate in the DVC Reservation Component so as to maintain no greater than a "oneto-one use right to use night requirementratio,'as thatterm is defined in Section 721.05(25), Florida Statutes. ACtub Memberata deleted DVC Reortwillnotbeableto makereservations at other DVC Resorts unless the Club hdember owns an Ownership lnterest at a non{eleted DVC Resort; however, theClub.Member will continue to have reservation rights in the resort where the Club Member owns his or her Ownership lnterest inaccordance with the terms of the resort's Vacation Ownership Plan.

So:

BVTC may, in its sole disaetion, delete all or a portion of an existing DVC Resort due to casualty where any ofthe affec'ted Vacation Homes or related facilities are not reconstrucled or replaced.

Such as a hurricane ?

 

[Mai Ku Tiki]

^This! They really run the risk of damaging the DVC brand long term if they make this poly points chart mistake with the next 2 builds. I have zero doubts there are going to be a lot of annoyed PVB owners in the next 5 years when all that’s left at the 10 month mark are theme park view rooms with a 60% points surcharge. It’s bad for 95% of your customers.

And ironically, in that timespan, many who want/need to add-on at PVB, by then may have discovered resale & won't go back to Disney Direct-especially if they already are blue cards.

 

[maui22]

Those island tower preferred view rooms facing the highway will have excellent views of the terrible drivers around WDW.
I have been told it’s tourists. ‍
Hydroplaning, cutting in front of a bus going speed limit just to exit, speeding through red lights, nearly hitting pedestrians, …

Judging by the way drivers slow down to look at accidents, maybe it will be popular?

 

[Sandisw]

So:

Such as a hurricane ?

That would be one type, yes. They could decide not to rebuild a resort, or a section of the resort. Instead, take the instance payout, and owners of those units would get their share and not longer be owners.

 

[RickNJane]

My DH and I are definitely more interested in the new Tower. We don't have kids, are retired, and only do one or two night stays because we have relocated to Florida and live close to Disney. The second sink in the longhouses is nice (don't need a second shower) but we would MUCH rather have a second toilet.

During a recent stay at Poly in PagoPago we realized that the longhouses aren't for us. We just don't like to have to walk outside to get to the amenities - especially when it's raining. There's something comforting for us about staying inside when we go to grab breakfast in the morning. Bay Lake is our favorite and even though we have to walk "outside" to get to Contempo Cafe, it's a covered bridge which makes it better for us. We love Jambo too.

We have a cash trip booked for a Deluxe studio in January at the Tower. If we enjoy it we might add-on 25 Poly points but we probably won't stay at a Poly longhouse again unless there's absolutely nothing else available and we need to stay a certain date. (Added: We love Bay Lake also because we walk to MK. The Poly Tower is still further but being able to walk to MK from there is a bonus. No GF for us because the points are too high and my DH doesn't like the "grandma" decor)

Same for us, another retired couple. We don't stay in studios, usually since we are on the west coast and do a 2 week stay. 1br is just so much better for an extended stay. We were really thinking about adding on at Poly, but the 1 and 2 br are just too many points. I did a little chart for the first week in December:

Resort	1 br	2 br	Dues $/PT
DLH	292	438	9.5307
VGC	291	390	8.5544
BLT	226/257/305	306/338/417	7.5902
BWV	180/234	237/299	8.6711
OKW	181	246	9.8666
Poly	278/339/387	394/456/560	8.2301
GF	282/340	387/458	7.5740
RIV	259/328	341/409	8.8508

We already own BWV and BLT. Just can't pull the trigger on Poly at this time.
I think we are going for a VGC resale as we have DLH points as well. That would give us enough points on both coasts. The ToT at DLH is a real pain and will cost DVC sales.

However our next WDW trip is in May and will tour the tower and may change our minds.