Pro Choice or Not

[JennyMominRI]

I know .

We are like a little microcosm of society.

Jenny, I know that our religions tell us different things about that, and I sympothize wtih the horrible position you were put in, but it is just hard for me to understand how anyone who has seen a baby sucking their thumb in the womb on a screen in the first trimester can't see it as a life.

I've had first trimester ultrasounds and I could see little more than a blob. seriously...That's all I saw. Second trimester is a different story though. A first trimester fetus has no more than the most rudimentory brain..It feels nothing, it thinks nothing...It cannot feel or think because the brain and spinal cord are not developed until early in the second trimester

 

[LadyShiva]

I've had first trimester ultrasounds and I could see little more than a blob. seriously...That's all I saw. Second trimester is a different story though. A first trimester fetus has no more than the most rudimentory brain..It feels nothing, it thinks nothing...It cannot feel or think because the brain and spinal cord are not developed until early in the second trimester

Thank you for this post... I agree completely, and I also have first trimester pictures that I couldn't distinguish anything on. Made me realize at the time how little differentiates us from a chicken in the first trimester.

Brandie

 

[JennyMominRI]

Adding to what I've said,I guess for me I define life, at least human life is having the ability even on a primitive level to think and feel... Someone on life support who is brain dead to me, is dead.. They are just an empty shell..That which made them human is no longer there..Their soul, if you believe in that, is gone. No granted the difference with a 1st trimester fetus is that awareness , the ability to think and feel WILL develop if given time. This won't happen to the person who is brain dead.
For me, when you get to the point where the fetus thinks and feels it becomes human.... That to me is really more important than the point of viability

 

[Pigeon]

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is that I think the baby doesn't have a CHOICE. And that I don't think taking anothers life should be anyones CHOICE to make.

So clearly you shouldn't have an abortion.

I've had many early miscarriages. I never lost a *baby.* The things I miscarried were, as a pp said, just as reminiscent of a fetal chicken as anything else. Now, that is not to say that other women who've had miscarriages don't feel differently. I certainly do not believe that life begins at conception. You are welcome to feel differently, and to act accordingly, but the clumps of cells I miscarried were not babies, so no, they shouldn't have choices.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

So clearly you shouldn't have an abortion.

I've had many early miscarriages. I never lost a *baby.* The things I miscarried were, as a pp said, just as reminiscent of a fetal chicken as anything else. Now, that is not to say that other women who've had miscarriages don't feel differently. I certainly do not believe that life begins at conception. You are welcome to feel differently, and to act accordingly, but the clumps of cells I miscarried were not babies, so no, they shouldn't have choices.

So when you had these miscarriages, did you walk away with an, "Oh well," and never give the "fetal chicken" another thought? Just curious.

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

Adding to what I've said,I guess for me I define life, at least human life is having the ability even on a primitive level to think and feel... Someone on life support who is brain dead to me, is dead.. They are just an empty shell..That which made them human is no longer their..Their soul, if you believe in that, is gone. No granted the difference with a 1st trimester fetus is that awareness , the ability to think and feel WILL develop if given time. This won't happen to the person who is brain dead.
For me, when you get to the point where the fetus thinks and feels it becomes human.... That to me is really more important than the point of viability

ITA

As for those moms who feel that they could never understand how a woman, after she became a mom, couldn't help but be pro-life...I feel completely the opposite.

My first pregnancy was unplanned (although I was already married, and we'd been talking about starting to try). However, my aunt has cystic fibrosis, and I knew that there was a significant chance that I was a carrier as well. I was given the option of having genetic testing at that point, so that I could make a "choice" should my child have the disease. I opted against it, figuring I would NEVER abort my own child, no matter what.

After raising a child for a couple of years, I felt much different about this issue. Myopinions about aborting a child with serious health issues had changed, with the knowledge of how hard it is to raise a healthy child, nonetheless a sick one. I also knew that my decisions would not only affect myself and my DH, but also my first DD. Thankfully, I did not have to face that choice, but I can honestly say that becoming a mother made me MORE pro-choice, not less.

 

[my4kids]

How do you feel about innocent lives being taken in war? Are you against capital punishment? What about choices being made in organ donation? Every time a choice is made about who receives an organ, someone else on that list that isn't chosen will probably die.

Choices are made that cost lives every day and not just in abortion clinics. If you're going to be consistent, you've got to be against them ALL. I admire folks that can hold that position, I tried and failed.

I'm against capital punishment. Organ donation (I don't know much about how the "list works") but I'm for anything that saves the most lives possible.
I don't see war as the same category. No one says "lets have a war, and we let this percentage of our people be killed" Its not choosing to have soldiers killed, its sending soldiers to try to save more lives in the end result. If you all want to keep your freedom of choice, you need to be willing to fight for freedom.

I think I am consistently for life and against anyone taking, ending , terminating or hurting a life intentially.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I'm against capital punishment. Organ donation (I don't know much about how the "list works") but I'm for anything that saves the most lives possible.
I don't see war as the same category. No one says "lets have a war, and we let this percentage of our people be killed" Its not choosing to have soldiers killed, its sending soldiers to try to save more lives in the end result. If you all want to keep your freedom of choice, you need to be willing to fight for freedom.

I think I am consistently for life and against anyone taking, ending , terminating or hurting a life intentially.

I'm not talking about the combatants in war, the soldiers. I'm talking about the "collateral damage". The innocents that were killed in bombings in Germany in order for the Allies to win the war. Innocents killed in bombings in Bosnia, or in any other country where we do surgical strikes. The civilians that are killed in Afghanistan when we bomb the Taliban. The military knows about it, and plans for an "acceptable" level of collateral damage. When I'm making my decision about whether or not to support a military action, collateral damage is something that I feel I MUST consider. The collateral damage is intentional, we KNOW going in that there will be a certain number of innocents killed. Therefore, if I'm going to accept the killing of innocents in war as acceptable losses to achieve a greater good, then I can't hold a position saying that all taking of innocent life is wrong. So, I had to give up my 100% anti abortion position because it was rooted in the theory that the taking of innocent life is ALWAYS wrong. So if the taking of innocent life isn't always wrong, then there must be some situations where the greater evil is to NOT take the life-and I defer to people who are directly impacted by that greater evil to make that decision.

I'm not trying to convert you, just to clarify my position.

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

I'm female, and I'm pro choice in certain situations (rape, to save the life of the mother, child that will not be viable at birth, etc.). However, I can't say that I'm completely pro-choice. I wish that there was the option of being pro-choice with qualifications. Also, I am 100% against so-called "partial birth" abortions. The thought of that makes me sick.

 

[Pigeon]

So when you had these miscarriages, did you walk away with an, "Oh well," and never give the "fetal chicken" another thought? Just curious.

Yes, that pretty much sums up how I felt. And dh and I were trying to have a family, so the pregnancies were wanted. I was disappointed the pregnancies didn't progress, but never did I feel like I'd actually lost a child.

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

So when you had these miscarriages, did you walk away with an, "Oh well," and never give the "fetal chicken" another thought? Just curious.

Little bit insensitive, if you ask me.

However, there's a difference between mourning a "baby" and mourning the potential for one. When I miscarried during my second pregnancy (at 6 weeks), I was certainly upset...I kept thinking about the baby that might have been. However, I would no way equate my feelings of loss to those of my friend who's baby died during delivery, or to others who have lost children after birth.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Yes, that pretty much sums up how I felt. And dh and I were trying to have a family, so the pregancies were wanted. I was disappointed the pregancies didn't progress, but never did I feel like I'd actually lost a child.

Hmmm, that's interesting. I have never heard that kind of response from a woman who lost a child before. Not saying that's bad, just an observation. The folks I've known who've had miscarriages were devastated.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Little bit insensitive, if you ask me.

However, there's a difference between mourning a "baby" and mourning the potential for one. When I miscarried during my second pregnancy (at 6 weeks), I was certainly upset...I kept thinking about the baby that might have been. However, I would no way equate my feelings of loss to those of my friend who's baby died during delivery, or to others who have lost children after birth.

See my above response to Pigeon. And I wholeheartedly agree that it's a different feeling off loss.

 

[Freyja]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I have never heard that kind of response from a woman who lost a child before. Not saying that's bad, just an observation. The folks I've known who've had miscarriages were devastated.

That´s because in her mind it wasn´t a child she lost, but a bunch of cells.
I had a miscarriage at 11 weeks. I never say I lost a child. I always say I had a miscarriage. I was sad, no doubt about it. But I wasn´t devestated and I wouldn´t say I mourned. I was sad that it didn´t work out. I had lost my mom 2 years earlier and was finally ready emotionally to become pregnant. It didn´t work out. I think I was more pissed off than I was sad. I´m a control freak and was mad that it didn´t work out as "planned".

 

[BCDisneyFanatic]

See my above response to Pigeon. And I wholeheartedly agree that it's a different feeling off loss.

But why would it be a different feeling of loss, if a fetus at 6 weeks is just as much a "baby" as a 9 month fetus?

 

[LadyShiva]

Hmmm, that's interesting. I have never heard that kind of response from a woman who lost a child before. Not saying that's bad, just an observation. The folks I've known who've had miscarriages were devastated.

Lost a child, yes, devastated. A miscarriage? Yes, my friends and I have mourned a potential, but have not been devastated by our losses.

There's a crucial difference there. A miscarriage, especially an early one, is a loss of my hopes, whereas losing my sister, who was a year and a half old, still makes me cry.

But that goes back to a difference between our definitions.

And for the record, I did not call an embryo a "fetal chicken." Talk about twisting words to be offensive! Geesh.

Brandie

 

[my4kids]

I've had first trimester ultrasounds and I could see little more than a blob. seriously...That's all I saw. Second trimester is a different story though. A first trimester fetus has no more than the most rudimentory brain..It feels nothing, it thinks nothing...It cannot feel or think because the brain and spinal cord are not developed until early in the second trimester

From one month body tour:

"The heart, no larger than a poppy seed, has been beating since day 18 when you're just four days late for your menstrual period, and by 21 days it is pumping, through its own closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from yours.

Four weeks after fertilization the eye, ear and respiratory systems begin to form and thumbsucking has been photographed within the first month by scientists. "

The fetus has different DNA than the mother, it is not part of her.

You know, my life would be way easier if I could agree with you all. Everything would be easier. Decisions in life would be easier. Sleeping would be easier, because I wouldn't worry as much about if my daughter ever gets pregnant, I'll have to raise the baby. I wouldn't have to worry about people put in psoitions like Jenny was.

I wish I could agree with the pro-choice position. It would make things SO much easier. But the more I read about an embryo and a fetus. I JUST CAN"T AGREE.

 

[LindsayDunn228]

I went back and read that post LadyShiva. I read it too quickly and totally misread that part. My apolgies.

I never said her feelings were wrong. I just said I didn't know anyone who'd ever had that kind of a response after a miscarriage before.

 

[Fitswimmer]

From one month body tour:





The fetus has different DNA than the mother, it is not part of her.

You know, my life would be way easier if I could agree with you all. Everything would be easier. Decisions in life would be easier. Sleeping would be easier, because I wouldn't worry as much about if my daughter ever gets pregnant, I'll have to raise the baby. I wouldn't have to worry about people put in psoitions like Jenny was.

I wish I could agree with the pro-choice position. It would make things SO much easier. But the more I read about an embryo and a fetus. I JUST CAN"T AGREE.

As far as I'm concerned, that's ok. You've thought out your position after having considered all the evidence available, and it seems that you also recognize that others can and have considered the same evidence and have come to a different conclusion. I don't think anyone can ask more than that.

 

[my4kids]

here is some more:

By 8 weeks the embryo grows to 1/2 an inch, the major muscles system develops and she moves gracefully like a good swimmer although you can't feel it yet.

This tiny human is perfectly developed with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes and whose skin is almost transparent with a highway of delicate arteries and veins visible to the ends of the fingers.

By 10 weeks, 20 tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums, she squints, swallows, moves her tongue, and if you stroke her palm, will make a tight fist. The toes will develop in the next few days and brain waves can be measured and she will react to loud noises.