Pro Choice or Not

[chobie]

oh yes,,they invented and changed 5000 years of Jewish history just for me..

Well, you are worthy of it.

 

[LuvDuke]

The discussion that I was hoping to happen is exactly what you have done. You have tried to think up situations/scenarios and put then out for comment, instead of simply stating this is the way it is and this is the way it will always be.

In the situation that you have described, I think that yes I would agree that the wife had seriously considered the opinion of the husband. I have never said that if the man/husband said that he wanted the child that should be the final decision.

I don't know if there is an answer to this situation but I do believe that there has to be some form of consideration, especially in cases where abortion is being used strictly for birth control. Again, I am in favour of pro-choice but there must be a good reason for that choice.

I believe there should be a good reason too. The difference is, I believe that good reason should be shared between a woman and her doctor.

 

[JennyMominRI]

For Ariel, from Judaism 101 which is an Orthodox web-site

Abortion
Jewish law not only permits, but in some circumstances requires abortion. Where the mother's life is in jeopardy because of the unborn child, abortion is mandatory.

An unborn child has the status of "potential human life" until the majority of the body has emerged from the mother. Potential human life is valuable, and may not be terminated casually, but it does not have as much value as a life in existence. The Talmud makes no bones about this: it says quite bluntly that if the fetus threatens the life of the mother, you cut it up within her body and remove it limb by limb if necessary, because its life is not as valuable as hers. But once the greater part of the body has emerged, you cannot take its life to save the mother's, because you cannot choose between one human life and another.

 

[LuvDuke]

I give up!!!!

I go hours between posts because I do have other things that I do, like sleep.

I didn't tell anyone not to bring up hypothetical situations, that is what this whole discussion is about.

For the life of me, I can't quite figure out what you're trying to say. You say you don't want to discuss hypotheticals, and then you bring up a man becoming mentally ill because his partner had an abortion. As if ......

If there's a point you're trying to make, please make it. Obviously, since you've confused several people, the problem isn't with the reader.

 

[chobie]

I'm sory but I will not be answering anymore of your questions. No matter what I say wou manage to turn it around in another direction and try to paint me as the bad guy.

I have to go do something else now. Just wanted to let everyone know that I will not be able to answer your questions for a few hours.

I just realized I was wrong about what you said to Smartestnumber. I'm sorry.

 

[Eeyore's Tailfinder]

Roe v Wade set up a system by which, the later in the pregnancy, the more the state could regulate abortion. Roe v Wade did NOT set up a system that anyone could have an abortion at any time. That is fallacy set up by the right-to-lifers.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

Apologies, but I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say - I am from the UK which does not recognise the decision in Roe v Wade.

EDIT: Ahh, after re-reading the post I believe you were telling me of the situation in the USA

 

[LuvDuke]

Is that some kind of 'new' Jewish law? Because I've never heard of it before, and most of my family is Jewish...perhaps it's just never been spoken of in my family.



So, this whole debate is rather null, then, isn't it? You have one side pushing for it to be illegal, and another pushing for it to be legal, both effecting other women.

So first you call Chobie a troll and now you question Jenny's knowledge of Jewish law. Good luck.

 

[Mrs.Toad]

And, as for adoption...it's not a 'cure' for anything. I'm sorry, but, comparing it to abortion, I would rather see my child/fetus die in the hands of a doctor/medically trained professional than in the hands of a (possible) rapist/murderer/molester/robber/etc.

What on earth does adoption have to do with rape/murder/molestation/robbery?

 

[MUFFYCAT]

Pro-choice. What a person whats to do with his or own body is no one else's business.

 

[LuvDuke]

Well, it would still nullify the debate, as there would then only be one side, and that's more a conversation.

If this issue had never been debated after Roe v Wade, it still would not affect the pro-lifers because nothing in Roe v Wade forces anyone to have an abortion. That is a fact.

You can debate from now until the cows come home, but pro-CHOICE means just that. CHOICE for all. The other side of the debate wishes to take away that CHOICE. That is a fact.

If the other side, the pro-lifers, had never joined the debate, it still wouldn't make a damned bit of difference to their lives because they would still have the CHOICE not to have an abortion. That is a fact.

Any discussion beyond those facts is nothing more than cocktail party chit-chat.

 

[LuvDuke]

Apologies, but I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say - I am from the UK which does not recognise the decision in Roe v Wade.

EDIT: Ahh, after re-reading the post I believe you were telling me of the situation in the USA

Your edit was correct. Roe v Wade was a monumental Supreme Court decision because, as you can see, it's still being debated after 34 years.

I figured I'd give you the link so you can see it for yourself, becasue again as you can see, everyone seems to have a different opinion as to what Roe v Wade really means.

 

[chobie]

If this issue had never been debated after Roe v Wade, it still would not affect the pro-lifers because nothing in Roe v Wade forces anyone to have an abortion. That is a fact.

You can debate from now until the cows come home, but pro-CHOICE means just that. CHOICE for all. The other side of the debate wishes to take away that CHOICE. That is a fact.

If the other side, the pro-lifers, had never joined the debate, it still wouldn't make a damned bit of difference to their lives because they would still have the CHOICE not to have an abortion. That is a fact.

Any discussion beyond those facts is nothing more than cocktail party chit-chat.

Here is my summation of the whole father's say chit chat:

Both sides agree the father should have some say.

One side doesn't know if or how much weight that say should have. If that say should be codified into law. Who should get the final say if an agreement cannot be reached.

One side thinks the law should stay the way it is where the final choice is made by the woman.

So where are we at? Exactly where we started with the law as it stands now.

 

[Alesia]

To those of you who say you would have a baby at the isk of your own life, I tell this for you..I've told this before and actually went through this real time on the boards..
First you should know that all I ever wanted was a big family..I've wanted to have lots of kids since I can remember.I was pregnant with my DD when I was diagnosed with AIDS..I was in very early pregnancy and was advised to abort. I was told it would speed up the HIV. It would make me sick,make me die sooner etc.. I chose not too..My beautiful daughter is 15 now.
When I was 30 I developed cardiomyopathy,the number one cause of heart transplants...I experienced congestive heart failure. I was literally drowning in my own bodily fluids... 3 years later I had mini-strokes..I lost the ability to move my entire left side.. I was told then no more kids..The strain on my heart would kill me.. The plan was to use 2 forms of birth control until Ed had a vasectomy, which was being planned.. I did not have Tubal because with all of my health conditions the risk of surgery seemed higher than the risk of getting pregnant while using 2 forms of BC.. I lost that gamble.. What they didn't know was that the anti-hiv meds I was taking made the pill inneffective..In fact I didn't find that out until a year or so ago.
Obviously, I got pregnant.. My risks were very very high, heart failure, stroke, etc...I was also not in the same stage of HIV infection. My immune system was far more compromised than it was years before when I had my kids and the anti-hiv meds along with the heart and blood pressure meds were teterogenic sp.? They were extrememly harmful to the fetus.One of them frequently caused 2nd term miscarriage.. In short odds of me and a child surviving were slim..The best I could hope for was that maybe I would only have a stroke...I'm sorry,but I've been their once and it wasn't fun,nor was the idea of drowning in my ow bodily fluids.
And I have 3 kid. 2 of them would go right back to the man who gave me HIV,if I died..And then there was taralyn,the child that Ed and I rased for 10 years after her mother abandoned her. I could leave her motherless ....again.
I spoke to my rabbi who told me that jewish law REQUIRES abortion if the life of the mother is at stake.. TO continue a pregnancy that will kill you is akin to suidcide ,under Jewish Law..There was a poster on another thread recentlywho said that a mother whose life is at risk due to pregnancy should have a c-section..I'm sorry,but do you realize hw risky major abdominal surgery is to someone whose immune system is severly compromised,and anyway,who is going to *deliver* an 8 week embryo? What is the point...
Sometimes things are ugly and there is no easy answer...I wanted more kids.. I wanted that baby with ED. Until January of this year that pregnancy was the worst thing that ever happened to me. It was worse than beng diagnosed with AIDS, worse than CHF and mini-strokes..Being pregnant with a baby I wanted and knowing I could not keep it ,was hell. I had an obligation to the people who were alive, to Ed, to my kids. If that's selfish, fine..If that makes me a *baby Killer*, fine...I will say though that it's very easy to say what you would do,, when it hasn't really happened to you.. I'm not saying you would make the same choice I did.. The thing is that what you did would be your choice and I don't believe anyone else can make that choice for you. Nor should they

How anyone feels like they can judge you for the decisions you have made is beyond me. I guess it's easy for some people to see other peoples lives in terms of black and white. You made the right decision for you and your family and you have my sympathy.

 

[komondorok]

So, this whole debate is rather null, then, isn't it? You have one side pushing for it to be illegal, and another pushing for it to be legal, both effecting other women.

Actually, you are incorrect in this supposition. As long as it is legal, all women have a choice. Those, such as you that do not believe in abortion, that believe the father has rights, has the choice to carry the fetus to term.

The women who believe in abortion, can choose to have an abortion.

There is no effect on either group of women, as they can follow their beliefs at will.

However, if abortion is illegal, then those who are pro-life are the only onews who get their choice.

The ones who choose abortion are stripped of their choice. The only group of people that illegalizing abortion affects - are the women who chose to abort.

But illegalizing abortion in no way affects the pro-life group of women, except to assuage their morality and to impose their morality on another group of women.

 

[Oreo Cookie]

To those of you who say you would have a baby at the risk of your own life, I tell this for you..I've told this before and actually went through this real time on the boards..
First you should know that all I ever wanted was a big family..I've wanted to have lots of kids since I can remember.I was pregnant with my DD when I was diagnosed with AIDS..I was in very early pregnancy and was advised to abort. I was told it would speed up the HIV. It would make me sick,make me die sooner etc.. I chose not too..My beautiful daughter is 15 now.
When I was 30 I developed cardiomyopathy, the number one cause of heart transplants...I experienced congestive heart failure. I was literally drowning in my own bodily fluids... 3 years later I had mini-strokes..I lost the ability to move my entire left side.. I was told then no more kids..The strain on my heart would kill me.. The plan was to use 2 forms of birth control until Ed had a vasectomy, which was being planned.. I did not have a Tubal Ligation because ,with all of my health conditions, the risk of surgery seemed higher than the risk of getting pregnant while using 2 forms of BC.. I lost that gamble.. What they didn't know was that the anti-hiv meds I was taking made the pill inneffective..In fact I didn't find that info didn't come out until a year or so ago.
Obviously, I got pregnant.. My risks were very very high. I was at risk heart failure, stroke, etc...I was also not in the same stage of HIV infection that I was years earlier. My immune system was far more compromised than it was years before when I had my kids and the anti-hiv meds along with the heart and blood pressure meds were teterogenic sp.? They were extrememly harmful to the fetus. One of them frequently causes 2nd term miscarriage.. In short odds of me and a child surviving were slim..The best I could hope for was that maybe I would only have a stroke...I'm sorry,but I've been there once and it wasn't fun, nor was the idea of drowning in my own bodily fluids fun.
And I have 3 kids. 2 of them would go right back to the man who gave me HIV, if I died..And then there was Taralyn, the child that Ed and I rased for 10 years after her mother abandoned her. I could leave her motherless ....again.
I spoke to my rabbi who told me that jewish law REQUIRES abortion if the life of the mother is at stake.. TO continue a pregnancy that will kill you is akin to suicide ,under Jewish Law..There was a poster on another thread recently who said that a mother whose life is at risk due to pregnancy should have a c-section..I'm sorry,but do you realize how risky major abdominal surgery is to someone whose immune system is severly compromised, and anyway,who is going to *deliver* an 8 week embryo? What is the point of that?
Sometimes things are ugly and there is no easy answer...I wanted more kids.. I wanted that baby with ED. Until January of this year that pregnancy was the worst thing that ever happened to me. It was worse than beng diagnosed with AIDS, worse than CHF and mini-strokes..Being pregnant with a baby I wanted and knowing I could not keep it was hell. I had an obligation to the people who were alive, to Ed, to my kids. If that's selfish, fine..If that makes me a *baby Killer*, fine...I will say though that it's very easy to say what you would do, when it hasn't really happened to you.. I'm not saying you would make the same choice I did. I'm not saying you should make te choice I did. The thing is that what you did would be your choice and I don't believe anyone else can make that choice for you. Nor should they

No one has the right to judge your decisions in your life. You were faced with a tragic situation, and you made the right decision for you and your family. It must have been such a painful time in your life.

I have to say that I truly find you to be an inspiration. You are a very strong and compassionate person.

 

[my4kids]

Pro-choice. What a person whats to do with his or own body is no one else's business.

It is none of business what a woman does with her body either, it is the unborn babies body I'm concerned about.

 

[PoohnPglet]

Is that some kind of 'new' Jewish law? Because I've never heard of it before, and most of my family is Jewish...perhaps it's just never been spoken of in my family.



So, this whole debate is rather null, then, isn't it? You have one side pushing for it to be illegal, and another pushing for it to be legal, both effecting other women.

JennyMominRI has the courage to reveal her own personal and devastating example to try and help explain her stance in this issue and you pop off with this smart-aleck response? (bolding above is mine) I thought you were aggressive on this subject, now I see that you are just flat out rude as well.

Jenny - I believe once upon a time over in "FIKarmaland" (is that still around?) I told you how much I admired and respected the strength and courage that you demonstrate. I am ever more reminded of that after reading that post.

 

[JennyMominRI]

JennyMominRI has the courage to reveal her own personal and devastating example to try and help explain her stance in this issue and you pop off with this smart-aleck response? (bolding above is mine) I thought you were aggressive on this subject, now I see that you are just flat out rude as well.

Jenny - I believe once upon a time over in "FIKarmaland" (is that still around?) I told you how much I admired and respected the strength and courage that you demonstrate. I am ever more reminded of that after reading that post.

Well it's not really new...I was posting here when it happened and then I didn't say much about if for close to 2 years..It was still to hard to talk about when you have some posters who I won't name... I think it helps people to put a face to a statistic.. I think that's my job in life, to put a face to a lot of statistics..Not sure whose bright idea that was.

 

[PoohnPglet]

Well it's not really new...I was posting here when it happened and then I didn't say much about if for close to 2 years..It was still to hard to talk about when you have some posters who I won't name... I think it helps people to put a face to a statistic.. I think that's my job in life, to put a face to a lot of statistics..Not sure whose bright idea that was.

Actually, I do remember when that was going on. I admired you then too !

No, what I was referring to was your mature responses on this thread.

 

[Luv'sTink]

To those of you who say you would have a baby at the risk of your own life, I tell this for you..I've told this before and actually went through this real time on the boards..
First you should know that all I ever wanted was a big family..I've wanted to have lots of kids since I can remember.I was pregnant with my DD when I was diagnosed with AIDS..I was in very early pregnancy and was advised to abort. I was told it would speed up the HIV. It would make me sick,make me die sooner etc.. I chose not too..My beautiful daughter is 15 now.
When I was 30 I developed cardiomyopathy, the number one cause of heart transplants...I experienced congestive heart failure. I was literally drowning in my own bodily fluids... 3 years later I had mini-strokes..I lost the ability to move my entire left side.. I was told then no more kids..The strain on my heart would kill me.. The plan was to use 2 forms of birth control until Ed had a vasectomy, which was being planned.. I did not have a Tubal Ligation because ,with all of my health conditions, the risk of surgery seemed higher than the risk of getting pregnant while using 2 forms of BC.. I lost that gamble.. What they didn't know was that the anti-hiv meds I was taking made the pill inneffective..In fact I didn't find that info didn't come out until a year or so ago.
Obviously, I got pregnant.. My risks were very very high. I was at risk heart failure, stroke, etc...I was also not in the same stage of HIV infection that I was years earlier. My immune system was far more compromised than it was years before when I had my kids and the anti-hiv meds along with the heart and blood pressure meds were teterogenic sp.? They were extrememly harmful to the fetus. One of them frequently causes 2nd term miscarriage.. In short odds of me and a child surviving were slim..The best I could hope for was that maybe I would only have a stroke...I'm sorry,but I've been there once and it wasn't fun, nor was the idea of drowning in my own bodily fluids fun.
And I have 3 kids. 2 of them would go right back to the man who gave me HIV, if I died..And then there was Taralyn, the child that Ed and I rased for 10 years after her mother abandoned her. I could leave her motherless ....again.
I spoke to my rabbi who told me that jewish law REQUIRES abortion if the life of the mother is at stake.. TO continue a pregnancy that will kill you is akin to suicide ,under Jewish Law..There was a poster on another thread recently who said that a mother whose life is at risk due to pregnancy should have a c-section..I'm sorry,but do you realize how risky major abdominal surgery is to someone whose immune system is severly compromised, and anyway,who is going to *deliver* an 8 week embryo? What is the point of that?
Sometimes things are ugly and there is no easy answer...I wanted more kids.. I wanted that baby with ED. Until January of this year that pregnancy was the worst thing that ever happened to me. It was worse than beng diagnosed with AIDS, worse than CHF and mini-strokes..Being pregnant with a baby I wanted and knowing I could not keep it was hell. I had an obligation to the people who were alive, to Ed, to my kids. If that's selfish, fine..If that makes me a *baby Killer*, fine...I will say though that it's very easy to say what you would do, when it hasn't really happened to you.. I'm not saying you would make the same choice I did. I'm not saying you should make te choice I did. The thing is that what you did would be your choice and I don't believe anyone else can make that choice for you. Nor should they

I applaud you for this post!

And I agree, that sometimes you think you would do things one way and then find out later when faced with it, you have to change your mind or know at that time it is the right thing to do.