Pro Choice or Not

[chobie]

JennyMominRI has the courage to reveal her own personal and devastating example to try and help explain her stance in this issue and you pop off with this smart-aleck response? (bolding above is mine) I thought you were aggressive on this subject, now I see that you are just flat out rude as well.

Unbelievable, isn't it?

 

[declansdad]

I just realized I was wrong about what you said to Smartestnumber. I'm sorry.

Thank you

For the life of me, I can't quite figure out what you're trying to say. You say you don't want to discuss hypotheticals, and then you bring up a man becoming mentally ill because his partner had an abortion. As if ......

If there's a point you're trying to make, please make it. Obviously, since you've confused several people, the problem isn't with the reader.

Please show me where I said I didn't want to discuss hypotheticals? That is all this discussion can be about? My reason for posing that question to Chobie was to see if she would actually answer a question, and she did, thank you.

There are a number of people on this thread that have understood what I was trying to say. How do I know, they have pm'ed me to tell me so.

I am pro-choice but I don't believe that abortion should simply be about birth control. That is my opinion and mine alone. Obviously there are some people who out there who would disagree. ( I am not talking about anyone on this thread, just in general.)

LuvDuke, I do think that laws should be discussed. As I said before, many people would feel the effects of archaic laws that would keep them from living a happy life if we didn't re-visit existing laws.

I do apologize to everyone on this thread who may have taken me the wrong way. I have been coming to the DIS since 2004 and I have never allowed a thread to bother me like this one has, including when I'm not online.

 

[fabshelly]

Please. I was reponding a string of posts about "make your choice before you have sex and use BC". Then someone always says it is not 100% (usually someone isn't using right though if it doesn't work) but anyway, I was just adding that abstinence is 100% and an unmarried person still has a choice.

In the case of married couples, in the extremely rare occasion that BC used correctly failed, yes they should most definately have that baby. If they can't raise it, there will most definately be someone who would want to.

There definitely ISN'T, or there wouldn't be any babies nor children in foster care and orphanages.

 

[chobie]

Thank you




Please show me where I said I didn't want to discuss hypotheticals? That is all this discussion can be about? My reason for posing that question to Chobie was to see if she would actually answer a question, and she did, thank you.

There are a number of people on this thread that have understood what I was trying to say. How do I know, they have pm'ed me to tell me so.

I am pro-choice but I don't believe that abortion should simply be about birth control. That is my opinion and mine alone. Obviously there are some people who out there who would disagree. ( I am not talking about anyone on this thread, just in general.)

LuvDuke, I do think that laws should be discussed. As I said before, many people would feel the effects of archaic laws that would keep them from living a happy life if we didn't re-visit existing laws.

I do apologize to everyone on this thread who may have taken me the wrong way. I have been coming to the DIS since 2004 and I have never allowed a thread to bother me like this one has, including when I'm not online.

I'm glad you accepted my apology. I think you owe me one for calling me dense. Never did I resort to name calling on this thread.

I also think Areal Mae owes an apology to Jenny.

This is an emotional topic, no doubt about it, as it should be.

 

[chobie]

There definitely ISN'T, or there wouldn't be any babies nor children in foster care and orphanages.

Currently there are close to 120,000 children in foster care, who are ready to be adopted (the parental rights have been terminated) and would love to be hooked up with one of those couples who are so desperate to adopt.
But those are those pesky "hard-to-place" children. It's much easier to work up for compassion for potential children then it is to take care of the actual children that nobody wants.

 

[JoiseyMom]

Is that some kind of 'new' Jewish law? Because I've never heard of it before, and most of my family is Jewish...perhaps it's just never been spoken of in my family.



So, this whole debate is rather null, then, isn't it? You have one side pushing for it to be illegal, and another pushing for it to be legal, both effecting other women.

This isn't new Jewish Law, I know it and have for years, and I am not religious and didn't even get Bat Mitzvahed. In Jewish law the life of the pregnant mother is more important then that of the unborn child. The women, when she survives, can get pregnant again.

From what I understand (and I could be wrong), other religions would choose the unborn child over the mother's life.

 

[LuvDuke]

Thank you

Please show me where I said I didn't want to discuss hypotheticals? That is all this discussion can be about? My reason for posing that question to Chobie was to see if she would actually answer a question, and she did, thank you.

There are a number of people on this thread that have understood what I was trying to say. How do I know, they have pm'ed me to tell me so.

I am pro-choice but I don't believe that abortion should simply be about birth control. That is my opinion and mine alone. Obviously there are some people who out there who would disagree. ( I am not talking about anyone on this thread, just in general.)

LuvDuke, I do think that laws should be discussed. As I said before, many people would feel the effects of archaic laws that would keep them from living a happy life if we didn't re-visit existing laws.

I do apologize to everyone on this thread who may have taken me the wrong way. I have been coming to the DIS since 2004 and I have never allowed a thread to bother me like this one has, including when I'm not online.

There's no need to apologize. The subject is a minefield and this medium is not the perfect way to discuss it. But, the one thing that should come across is the consensus that abortion, in some circumstances, should remain safe and legal. That comes through loud and clear.

Thank you for coming back to explain over and over and over again when it is so easy to say "to hell with it". It takes guts and a belief in your own convictions.

 

[Cool-Beans]

I think that's my job in life, to put a face to a lot of statistics..Not sure whose bright idea that was.

That is the funniest thing I've heard you say. But I have a strange sense of humor.

Being a face for statistics is NOT your job in life. Your job is the same as everyone else's. To make someone happy and to let someone make you happy. As many someones as possible. And I just got a good lol there, so you've done your job today.

A real lol, for what it is worth.

 

[Cool-Beans]

I've never heard of it before

Oh, well then.

Jenny, you must be wrong. Sorry.

 

[JennyMominRI]

That is the funniest thing I've heard you say. But I have a strange sense of humor.

Being a face for statistics is NOT your job in life. Your job is the same as everyone else's. To make someone happy and to let someone make you happy. As many someones as possible. And I just got a good lol there, so you've done your job today.

A real lol, for what it is worth.

It's my pleasure... I also have a strange sense of humor..It really helps a lot

 

[declansdad]

I'm glad you accepted my apology. I think you owe me one for calling me dense. Never did I resort to name calling on this thread.

You are right and I apologize for the name calling.

 

[my4kids]

Currently there are close to 120,000 children in foster care, who are ready to be adopted (the parental rights have been terminated) and would love to be hooked up with one of those couples who are so desperate to adopt.
But those are those pesky "hard-to-place" children. It's much easier to work up for compassion for potential children then it is to take care of the actual children that nobody wants.

I was just going to say the same thing. The children up for adoption were placed for adoption after they were in the "cute, brand new perfect baby" stage. They have been abused, have health problems caused by parental neglect, or fetal alcohol syndrome etc. I am not saying it is right - it's awlful that more people don't want to take these children. Also most kids in foster care are not up for adoption, their parents have not had their rights taken away permenantly. But I doubt there is one healthy new baby in the nation up for adoption that isn't spoken for. Just look in your local paper under the adoption section and read all the "pure your heart out" ads begging for a baby. There are people who want the babies that are being aborted.

 

[Luv'sTink]

I was just going to say the same thing. The children up for adoption were placed for adoption after they were in the "cute, brand new perfect baby" stage. They have been abused, have health problems caused by parental neglect, or fetal alcohol syndrome etc. I am not saying it is right - it's awlful that more people don't want to take these children. Also most kids in foster care are not up for adoption, their parents have not had their rights taken away permenantly. But I doubt there is one healthy new baby in the nation up for adoption that isn't spoken for. Just look in your local paper under the adoption section and read all the "pure your heart out" ads begging for a baby. There are people who want the babies that are being aborted.

Not all of them want babies that are being aborted, they want the "perfect" new born baby. No health or mental problems with the mother, father or baby.

 

[Amy&Dan]

Its a tough issue (understatement of the century). One that has continued to haunt our country and divide us for decades with no end in sight. In the end, I am a woman and I am pro choice. I never had an abortion. Does that make me moral? No just lucky to have only gotten pregnant by a loving husband with a wanted, tried for baby. I mean nobody really likes the idea of having an abortion, I know of no women who prayed for or asked to be put in that position. Its often a choice made out of terror, desparation, isolation, medical necessity and in the end a painful thing that will never be forgotten. So while my childbearing years seem to be over, my 10 year old daughter's will be beginning soon enough. Do I want her to have an abortion? Of course not. But I want her to have the choice. Because the painful instances that often lead to abortion don't just happen to other people, they can happen to anyone, even God forbid my daughter. So I want her to have that option. The choice to have one in a clean, medical environment from a doctor who is certified to practice medicine. Not in some back alley by a butcher. Being pro choice isn't necessarily about being pro abortion, anti dad's rights or any of the other things people say being pro choice is about. You can hate the concept of abortion. But you need to think carefully about saying illegalizing them is the answer. Because to the best of my knowledge, making something against the law never made it disappear. In my mind, the best way to satisfy your worry and oppostion of abortion is to educate yourself and your loved ones about this issue, and how to avoid pregnancy. Then of course remember that everything you think you know about abortion and why its wrong can become a moot point real quick if the tables turn and the unthinkable happens anyway as it so often does in situations so uncontrollable we haven't even thought of them. Remember that sometimes our most set in stone ideals will either drive us to be humbled or make into a hypocrite.

If anyone really wants to dive into this issue, rent the movie "If These Walls Could Talk". It may may make you think twice about what you think you feel and know regarding this issue.

 

[my4kids]

This isn't new Jewish Law, I know it and have for years, and I am not religious and didn't even get Bat Mitzvahed. In Jewish law the life of the pregnant mother is more important then that of the unborn child. The women, when she survives, can get pregnant again.

From what I understand (and I could be wrong), other religions would choose the unborn child over the mother's life.

JoiseyMom and Jenny,

just curious, what does Jewish Law say about abortion when it is done for convienence? If there is no threat to the mothers life at all?

 

[goofygirl]

From what I understand (and I could be wrong), other religions would choose the unborn child over the mother's life.

Not necessarily. Some religions leave "wiggle room" for cases such as when the mother's life is at stake.


Example: Episcopal Church says is should only be used in "extreme situations".
Is a dying mother not an "extreme situation?"


"We regard all abortion as having a tragic dimension, calling for the concern and compassion of all the Christian community.

While we acknowledge that in this country it is the legal right of every woman to have a medically safe abortion, as Christians we believe strongly that if this right is exercised, it should be used only in extreme situations. We emphatically oppose abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection, or any reason of mere convenience...

and be it further
Resolved, That this 71st General Convention of the Episcopal Church express its unequivocal opposition to any legislative, executive or judicial action on the part of local, state or national governments that abridges the right of a woman to reach an informed decision about the termination of pregnancy or that would limit the access of a woman to safe means of acting on her decision."



other religions take on the abortion issue:
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
http://www.rcrc.org/

 

[JennyMominRI]

JoiseyMom and Jenny,

just curious, what does Jewish Law say about abortion when it is done for convienence? If there is no threat to the mothers life at all?

It doesn't , as there prababy wasn't the ability to perform elective abortions when Jewish law was studied.. Jews have to study Jewish law and make a judgment call.
This is from another site

Jewish beliefs and practice not neatly match either the "pro-life" nor the "pro-choice" points of view. The general principles of modern-day Judaism are that:

The fetus has great value because it is potentially a human life. It gains "full human status at birth only."

Abortions are not permitted on the grounds of genetic imperfections of the fetus.

Abortions are permitted to save the mother's life or health.

With the exception of some Orthodox authorities, Judaism supports abortion access for women.

"...each case must be decided individually by a rabbi well-versed in Jewish law." 5

Abortion-related passages in the Hebrew Scriptures & Talmud:
The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.

"Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body." 1 This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.

ETA this
Some Jewish authorities have ruled in specific cases:

One case involved a woman who becomes pregnant while nursing a child. Her milk supply would dry up. If the child is allergic to all other forms of nutrition except for its mother's milk, then it would starve. An abortion would be permitted in this case. An abortion of the fetus, a potential person, would be justified to save the life of the child, an actual person.

An abortion would be permissible if the woman was suicidal because of her pregnancy.

Jewish authorities differed in a case where a continued pregnancy would leave the mother permanently deaf. She obtained permission for an abortion from the Chief Rabbi of Israel.

Many Jewish authorities permit abortion in the case of a pregnancy resulting from a rape, if needed in order save her great mental anguish.

Most authorities do not permit abortion in the event that the fetus is genetically defective or will probably pick up a disease from its mother. The rationale is that even though the child will be malformed, disabled, or diseased, it would still be formed in the image of the creator. Rabbi Eliezar Waldenberg is one authority who believes otherwise. He "allows first trimester abortion of a fetus which would be born with a deformity that would cause it to suffer, and termination of a fetus with a lethal fetal defect such as Tay Sachs up to the end of the second trimester of gestation." 3

An abortion is sometimes permitted if the woman suffers great emotional pain about the birth of a child who will experience health problems.

Abortions are not permitted for economic reasons, to avoid career inconveniences, or because the woman is unmarried.

In a very unusual case, a woman in New Jersey was pregnant with a hydroencephalic fetus. Its large head prevented a conventional delivery. The physician recommended a Caesarian section. But the woman asked for a D&X procedure on the grounds that the fetus' life was doomed anyway and a C section would weaken her uterus for her next pregnancy. Her rabbinic authorities agreed. 4



Political aspects of abortion access:
Conservative, Reconstructionist and Reform Judaism are formally opposed to government regulation of abortion. They feel that the decision should rest with the woman, her husband, doctor and clergyperson. Some Orthodox authorities agree with this stance.

All recognize that the decision to have an abortion is a difficult one, and is not to be undertaken without considerable thought.

 

[my4kids]

another question for all pro-choice people -

Would you be opposed to mothers (especially young mothers) seeking an abortion to be couseled about adoption first. Not saying that their right to an abortion is at all jepordised, just that before they had the procedure and they were being counseled about it, that someone would first talk to them about what their other options were. I mean, if someone is pro-choice, then they should be all for someone actually being presented with choices, not just the quickest way out. No pressure, just information.

Many very pro-choice people I know freak out at that suggestion. All of the sudden they feel that that is going to stand in the way of womans rights etc. etc. I just think that many times a girl is desperate, and doesn't know where to go about adoption, how it works, if there will be legal fees, and lets face it, any 16 yr old with a drivers licence knows where to go and how to get an abortion .

 

[JennyMominRI]

another question for all por-choice people -

Would you be opposed to mothers (especially young mothers) seeking an abortion to be couseled about adoption first. Not saying that their right to an abortion is at all jepordised, just that before they had the procedure and they were being counseled about it, that someone would first talk to them about what their other options were. No pressure, just information.

Many very pro-choice people I know freak out at that suggestion. All of the sudden they feel that that is going to stand in the way of womans rights etc. etc. I just think that many times a girl is desperate, and doesn't know where to go about adoption, how it works, if there will be legal fees, and lets face it, any 16 yr old with a drivers licence knows where to go and how to get an abortion .

I don't see why anyone can't be told all available options.

 

[Amy&Dan]

another question for all por-choice people -

Would you be opposed to mothers (especially young mothers) seeking an abortion to be couseled about adoption first. Not saying that their right to an abortion is at all jepordised, just that before they had the procedure and they were being counseled about it, that someone would first talk to them about what their other options were. No pressure, just information.

Many very pro-choice people I know freak out at that suggestion. All of the sudden they feel that that is going to stand in the way of womans rights etc. etc. I just think that many times a girl is desperate, and doesn't know where to go about adoption, how it works, if there will be legal fees, and lets face it, any 16 yr old with a drivers licence knows where to go and how to get an abortion .

I have no problem with individuals receiving information about thier options.