POT (Proof of Time) Race Equivalency Cutoff Confirmed Times

[TeeKo]

DopeyBadger, thank you so much for all your effort and admirable math skills!!

It now takes <68 minute 10k to get into a POT corral.
Did it use to be 72 or 74 minutes??
Thank you!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

DopeyBadger, thank you so much for all your effort and admirable math skills!!

It now takes <68 minute 10k to get into a POT corral.
Did it use to be 72 or 74 minutes??
Thank you!!

Happy to help! Per my correspondence with runDisney years ago, the old 10k POT cutoff was 75 minutes.

 

[TeeKo]

Happy to help! Per my correspondence with runDisney years ago, the old 10k POT cutoff was 75 minutes.

Whoa, that’s a huge shift! Thank you for the information.

On a completely different scale and in the opposite direction, I read that about 80% of the women runners who qualified for the Olympic marathon trials did so with a time between 2:37 and 2:45. Before 2016, the qualifying time was 2:37.

I’m bringing a group of novice runners to the princess half in 2021. Some have never run so much as a 5k. Had set sights on getting all the women into a POT corral but with this change, I think it has moved out of reach as a team goal. C’est la vie!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Whoa, that’s a huge shift! Thank you for the information.

Essentially they just moved Corral E from a POT corral (2:30-2:45) to a non-POT corral as the estimated cutoff for Corral E prior to Wine and Dine 2020 was 1:08:30 by my math.

On a completely different scale and in the opposite direction, I read that about 80% of the women runners who qualified for the Olympic marathon trials did so with a time between 2:37 and 2:45. Before 2016, the qualifying time was 2:37.

Seems to jive with this graphic. I counted 83 runners who met the A standard (2:37 or less). I believe 511 women qualified overall, so about 84% were a B standard.

https://www.atlanta2020trials.com/qualifier-statistics
Since the Olympics has since moved their own standards, it's quite possible the trial standards may be shifted again for 2024.

I’m bringing a group of novice runners to the princess half in 2021. Some have never run so much as a 5k. Had set sights on getting all the women into a POT corral but with this change, I think it has moved out of reach as a team goal. C’est la vie!

Best of luck to you and your group! It looks like the cutoff for POT submission for Princess 2021 will probably be in November 2020.

 

[cburnett11]

@DopeyBadger
Thanks for all this info. I think I read somewhere for POT, that Disney was only looking for a link/race that they could verify the time. Does a race specifically have to be noted as USATF-certified or is Disney a bit more liberal on this? My daughter needs a proof of time for Wine/Dine and just want to know if a chip-timed race will be adequate or do we need to find something that specifically advertises as usatf certified.

thanks as always

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger
Thanks for all this info. I think I read somewhere for POT, that Disney was only looking for a link/race that they could verify the time. Does a race specifically have to be noted as USATF-certified or is Disney a bit more liberal on this? My daughter needs a proof of time for Wine/Dine and just want to know if a chip-timed race will be adequate or do we need to find something that specifically advertises as usatf certified.

thanks as always

Based on past experience of others, the race does not need to be USATF certified. Simply a real race with results that are accessible online.

 

[cburnett11]

Based on past experience of others, the race does not need to be USATF certified. Simply a real race with results that are accessible online.

Thanks! I was hoping for that. Just need to find something convenient that my daughter can run and get under 1:08. We hope to at least start the half together with my wife. My wife has the "best" POT... she ran a 2:29:59 at the Louisiana Half Marathon.

 

[Kerry1957]

The new POT standards are very interesting. If my math is correct, the revised paces to get into the last POT corral are:

• 10K 1:08 = a 10:58 pace
• 10M 1:54 = a 11:24 pace
• HM 2:30 = a 11:27 pace

For me, the sweet spot is probably the 10 mile. My best usable POT is now a 2:30:38 HM so I need to get just a little faster. I've never run a 10 miler, but I'll be looking for one this spring/summer.

 

[Onceuponamarathon]

So are we thinking that Marathon weekend will be a 5 hour POT cut off for the Full/Challenges?

I ran a 2:31 at last wine and dine to use for Dopey 2021, but it sounds like that may not be enough. If the full changes to a 5:00 POT, would the new proof of time be 2:22?

 

[DopeyBadger]

The new POT standards are very interesting. If my math is correct, the revised paces to get into the last POT corral are:

• 10K 1:08 = a 10:58 pace
• 10M 1:54 = a 11:24 pace
• HM 2:30 = a 11:27 pace

For me, the sweet spot is probably the 10 mile. My best usable POT is now a 2:30:38 HM so I need to get just a little faster. I've never run a 10 miler, but I'll be looking for one this spring/summer.

Agreed. Based on the Riegel math, the 10 miler and M conversions are the softest and definitely offer an advantage over the other submittable distances.

So are we thinking that Marathon weekend will be a 5 hour POT cut off for the Full/Challenges?

I ran a 2:31 at last wine and dine to use for Dopey 2021, but it sounds like that may not be enough. If the full changes to a 5:00 POT, would the new proof of time be 2:22?

There's no information to say at this moment in time whether the Marathon POT will shift as well. But if it did, it would make sense based on what they seem to have just done to use the Corral E cutoff once again. Which would be an estimated 1:46 10 miler and 2:22 HM. I guess we'll find out April 2nd when early Marathon Weekend registration opens up.

 

[huskies90]

There's no information to say at this moment in time whether the Marathon POT will shift as well. But if it did, it would make sense based on what they seem to have just done to use the Corral E cutoff once again. Which would be an estimated 1:46 10 miler and 2:22 HM. I guess we'll find out April 2nd when early Marathon Weekend registration opens up.

I am kinda surprised you didn't ask about marathon weekend when you emailed them. You are usually so thorough. lol. JK.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I am kinda surprised you didn't ask about marathon weekend when you emailed them. You are usually so thorough. lol. JK.

Didn't want to bother them with a hypothetical at the moment. We'll know in less than a month though.

 

[TeeKo]

Hi DopeyBadger!
I’ve been pouring over your posts. You are so generous with your time, experience, and running wisdom . Thank you so much!

I’m trying to understand how training slower is going to get me to a faster race time. I’ve run four Disney HM using the Galloway method. I slowed down in order to get my distance up but I never picked up my speed. That may well be laziness, lack of discipline on my part.

My race 10k time this month was 57:34. However, I’ve never finished a HM any better than 2:43:34. I’ve always blamed the crowds and I’ve never run a HM outside of Disney.
Anyway, I want to get faster and if I can do that running slower, well wouldn’t that just be icing on the cake!
Would appreciate any insight you have to offer. Thank you!

 

[DopeyBadger]

I’ve been pouring over your posts. You are so generous with your time, experience, and running wisdom . Thank you so much!

Always happy to help!

I’m trying to understand how training slower is going to get me to a faster race time.

Eureka! The Quintessential Running Post
Train slow to race fast: Why running more slowly and capping the long run at 2.5 hours may dramatically improve your performance
Why am I doing this run? The question every runner should be asking themselves.

My race 10k time this month was 57:34. However, I’ve never finished a HM any better than 2:43:34. I’ve always blamed the crowds and I’ve never run a HM outside of Disney.

So your 10k time suggests the following:



With an equivalent performance of 2:07. So a 2:43 is far far slower than what you would seemingly be capable of. Whether that's because you've only run runDisney HMs or something with training is a bit of an unknown for me. But let's make the assumption you would have run a similar time in a non-runDisney event. Then it suggests you have plenty of speed to run faster, and not enough endurance.



Based on the 10k time, these would be your training paces. If you were a continuous runner, then approximately 80% of training would be at an 11 min/mile or slower. If you are a run/walker, then the majority of training would be at a 12:06 min/mile or slower. If your comfortable walking pace (and you can tell me otherwise) is a 16 min/mile, then your suggested easy/LR run/walk would be 75 sec at 11:00 min/mile and 30 sec at a 16 min/mile.

So how do these compare to what you have been doing recently?

If the paces have been comparable, then it tells me you're training slow enough and you have the prerequisite speed. That then suggests it is a volume issue. To run a faster HM is going to require more training and likely a more balanced effort. But tell me the data, and I can try and read the tea leaves.

 

[TeeKo]

Thank you so much DopeyBadger!!!!!
I am going to have to take time to read through all of that information. Your brain really processes information quickly!

I am a continuous runner now. I have done the run/walk Galloway in the past but since I have been doing shorter runs, it seemed unnecessary. Now, I want to get my distance up but not sacrifice so much speed. I run consistently run three days a week. I run 3 miles on Tuesday and Thursdays (time varies 28:31 to 30:50) and once a week, run 4 to 6 miles at same pace.

My next race (if it is not canceled, I think odds are high) is in 5 weeks, an 8 person, 80 mile relay divided into 24 legs. Each runner has to complete 3 legs that are about 5k each. After that, I would like to set my sights on a HM in the fall, so plenty of time to train.

I am organizing a group of 8 (including me) women for the Princess HM in 2021. In this group, there are 6 women who have never run more than a 5k and two who have never run even a 5k. This race will not be for speed but to encourage other women who want to improved their health.
I have become the de facto leader but that is more like handling the logistics of lodging, registration. The running part, they are all trying to find their own way with C25K and Galloway to get started. I love how you help and encourage others in running. I am trying to soak in all your advice.

 

[DopeyBadger]

I am a continuous runner now. I have done the run/walk Galloway in the past but since I have been doing shorter runs, it seemed unnecessary. Now, I want to get my distance up but not sacrifice so much speed. I run consistently run three days a week. I run 3 miles on Tuesday and Thursdays (time varies 28:31 to 30:50) and once a week, run 4 to 6 miles at same pace.

So that would be:

M- OFF
T- 3 miles in 30 min (9:30-10:17 min/mile pace)
W- OFF
R- 3 miles in 30 min (9:30-10:17 min/mile pace)
F- OFF
Sa- 4-6 miles in 40-60 min (9:30-10:17 min/mile pace)
Su- OFF



So now we compare those paces (9:30-10:17) to your current estimated physiological paces. Not surprising to me that you're ending up around lactate threshold to marathon pace. When runners are newer and allowed to self-select a pace to run at, it typically ends up being in that exact range. And it's doable because you're doing so little training overall (2 hrs or less on a normal basis). So I think you're training too fast, but I think in combination with slowing down an increase in training volume is definitely going to be the ticket. I qualify runs by time. A run of 30 min or less is typically seen as a recovery run. It offers very little actual gains benefits. I believe easy runs at their maximum are in the 60-90 min range. Once you hit 90-120 min, then there's an increase in the bodies response. Then 120-150 min is top-end of endurance for a continuous runner without starting to outweigh the risks against the benefits. As a continuous runner, I typically suggest not doing more than 150 min in a single run. If you want more, then you increase training on other days, or consider doing doubles (not something I think is necessary until you reach the apex of training).

So I think if you're looking to get faster, then I think it's time to find a training plan with more volume and coincide that with slowing down more often in training.

 

[TeeKo]

DopeyBadger, you are AwesomeBadger!

That makes perfect sense.
For previous HMs, I used the RunDisney training plan which has only two long runs per month. (In case you aren't familiar, it is running for 3 days per week with all runs being 30 minutes each except for the 2 long runs per month). This plan appealed to me because it was pretty low effort lol.
I am going to read carefully through what you wrote. But I think today I am running for 60 minutes and running slower....

 

[DopeyBadger]

I am going to read carefully through what you wrote. But I think today I am running for 60 minutes and running slower....

I highly suggest finding a training plan that works for your life and available time, and is progressive in nature towards your "A" race. That will yield the optimal outcome. So look for a structured training plan to help you determine how much and what type of training. Something like Hal Higdon is a place that HM runners naturally transition to from a 3-day a week Galloway runDisney plan.

 

[cburnett11]

DopeyBadger, you are AwesomeBadger!

@TeeKo I agree with your statement. I also agree with the advice @DopeyBadger gave you. My wife rarely does speed-work, so is pretty much the opposite. Her best 10k is just under 1:09, but her best hm is just under 2:30. To get faster in the long stuff, we all actually need to slow down on most of our runs. It's counter intuitive, but it seems to be one of the things that most coaches actually agree on.

 

[TeeKo]

@TeeKo I agree with your statement. I also agree with the advice @DopeyBadger gave you. My wife rarely does speed-work, so is pretty much the opposite. Her best 10k is just under 1:09, but her best hm is just under 2:30. To get faster in the long stuff, we all actually need to slow down on most of our runs. It's counter intuitive, but it seems to be one of the things that most coaches actually agree on.

I appreciate the validation from more experienced runners! Thank you!
So I ran 5.5 miles in 61:19 today. Still trying to find my groove, I felt a bit like a dog on a leash.
As I was running, I thought that I was unfair in my portrayal of the RunDisney Galloway plan. I was following the plan for beginners who want to be able to finish a HM. I changed my goal and didn't change the plan, so that is on me.