Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

[Oreo Cookie]

If the cops felt threatened by the crowd - of students peacfully protesting a tuition hike, first, maybe they should seek other employment. Second, they should seek other employment because the way to deal with a threatening crowd surrounding you is not to calmly wander around using weaponry on their comrades, who are sitting on the ground, legs crossed (thus less able to rise quickly and attack you), while they stand surrounding you and, presumably, getting more annoyed.

MTE.

If a policeman doesn't know how to handle protestors, the police chief should be fired for a lack of training and for risking the lives of those that police department has sworn to protect as well a the lives of the police in that department. If I'm not entirely mistaken, that SHOULD be something that is part of routine training, especially on a large university campus where, historically, protests are nothing new.

MTE. The police in this situation used excessive force. The pepper spray was not necessary. There will be legal ramifications.

 

[eliza61]

You are in NJ so what is your point? If you were here in CA that is one thing but too many jumping on the bandwagon have NOTHING to do with what is going on here in California.

Do you think these problems are solely the domain of California? LOL. California is the only state with budget issues or tuition issues.

Sorry but imo too many people are NOT jumping on a bandwagon. That's been the problem with this country for the last 40 years and you see how well that's worked.

As long as it doesn't directly effect our little corner of the universe we don't give a hoot about it. The problem with that mentality is that this is a country, we either sink or swim together.

 

[cornflake]

I don't think it was his safety that was at stake so much as his anonymity. 15 years ago there wouldn't have been video of this. The cop would've claimed whatever he liked, his department would've backed him and the students would be SOL.

I don't entirely disagree with your point except... see the photos of Birmingham upthread. See Rodney King, which was close to 20 years ago, no?

Since about the '60s, when first the Civil Rights movement and then the Vietnam war put coverage in everyone's living room in close to real time, it's been harder and harder to hide. Which I think is, of course, a good thing.

Even with the level of youtubeing and instant updating and cell phone video sharing though - how long did it take the photos from Abu Ghraib to get out? It's an interesting chase between dumb people and the technology they don't realize will catch them out.

 

[eliza61]

Was it brutal? I remember Kent State, so no, it was not brutal. Was it excessive? The courts will no doubt decide that. From one video it is impossible to determine if the cops' safety was threatened, not just by those sitting on the ground but the crowd surrounding them.

So that's our standard? While you remember Kent state, I lived the civil rights so yeah I think throwing or spraying burning hot material in some one's eyes, throat and respiratory system brutual.

I totally agree, that it's impossible to determine the entire scene. All I can do is make a opinion based on the information at hand. pretty much like everyone else.

 

[Rabscuttle]

I don't think it was his safety that was at stake so much as his anonymity. 15 years ago there wouldn't have been video of this. The cop would've claimed whatever he liked, his department would've backed him and the students would be SOL.

Am I shocked that cops would exercise undo force? No. Would I be surprised that departments back them up? Never. Were the students disrupting the campus? Yes. Does California have fiscal problems? Without a doubt. Does tuition rise faster than the rate of inflation? ALWAYS. There are no heros here on either side but students demanding that the tuition be kept as it was puts a burden on every taxpayer that doesn't use the university system.

 

[punkin]

I don't think it was his safety that was at stake so much as his anonymity. 15 years ago there wouldn't have been video of this. The cop would've claimed whatever he liked, his department would've backed him and the students would be SOL.

So true. There was a recent case in Maryland where some cops brutalized a college student and claimed it was because they were attacked. The department backed the cops up. In fact, the kids involved were arrested (IIRC)...until the video showed up.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-13/...ficer-two-officers-police-officer?_s=PM:CRIME

 

[eliza61]

So true. There was a recent case in Maryland where some cops brutalized a college student and claimed it was because they were attacked. The department backed the cops up. In fact, the kids involved were arrested (IIRC)...until the video showed up.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-13/...ficer-two-officers-police-officer?_s=PM:CRIME

Hell, last september 2 Philadelphia police beat the crap out of a BLIND man. They initially claimed that he was attacking them. Some one thankfully had a camera phone and recorded the incident.

 

[punkin]

Hell, last september 2 Philadelphia police beat the crap out of a BLIND man. They initially claimed that he was attacking them. Some one thankfully had a camera phone and recorded the incident.

Is it wrong that I find this hilarious on some level? Why in the name of all that's holy would people beat up on a blind man? I suppose he could have been a threat if he was shooting (blindly ) but in that case, I'm sure he would have been shot out of hand, not beaten.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

I don't entirely disagree with your point except... see the photos of Birmingham upthread. See Rodney King, which was close to 20 years ago, no?

Since about the '60s, when first the Civil Rights movement and then the Vietnam war put coverage in everyone's living room in close to real time, it's been harder and harder to hide. Which I think is, of course, a good thing.

Even with the level of youtubeing and instant updating and cell phone video sharing though - how long did it take the photos from Abu Ghraib to get out? It's an interesting chase between dumb people and the technology they don't realize will catch them out.

I think the difference is in who is shooting the film. Abu Ghraib was soldiers exclusively. It didn't happen in a public place, so let's exclude that one. Except for the fact that the photos were taken on phones and not cameras, that one could've been set 60 years ago.

Birmingham, Rodney King, even, heck, let's go back to the Boston Massacare, those were incidents that were recorded by professionals, who are knowledge gatekeepers. People who MADE the news and decided what we knew and when we knew it.

The gates are wide open today. There are no gatekeepers. Anything that happens in a public place or where there are bystanders with phones may well get recorded and put on youtube. From there, it can go viral without touching the former gatekeepers.

I say 15 years ago, because that's when enough people had video recorders. But the availability of it in the past 6 years or so - whip out the phone in your pocket and start shooting, then post it to youtube within 3 minutes and alert your friends on Facebook within 5 minutes - that's game changing.

 

[Swan4Me]

Amen Olwyngdh,


people say this ain't the 60's well let me tell you, THIS acceptance is exactly how it started. first we start blaming the victims (oh they are hippies or they should have moved) then we start justifying the use of extreme force.

Lastly, it always, always ramped up because as we see now these college kids are not going away so now what will the cops do?

Amen-this SO reminds me of Kent State tradgedy
Heck-we protested all the time in college during Vietnam!

 

[eliza61]

There are no heros here on either side but students demanding that the tuition be kept as it was puts a burden on every taxpayer that doesn't use the university system.

But a lot of times what develops out of protest is the one thing we seemed to have forgotten and that is COMPROMISE.
Maybe all these protest will do is put the university on alert that the students and their parents are watching what the school does with the money.
Did the University ever reach out to the students prior to raising the tuition and get any outside input (from what I read they did not). Are there areas where cuts in spending could have been made? Isn't it interesting that as a country most people don't want their taxes raise without spending cuts but in reality that is exactly what the university is doing.

So at the very minimum the protestor are sending a message to the university that they expect to be an active part of the financial process.

Personally, I wish more citizens started protesting at their states budget meetings and started making some demands, maybe we'd have less waste.

 

[Chris the CPA]

So in circumstances that are favorable to YOU, you should be allowed to sit on a sidewalk. In circumstances that you do not like, police should pepper spray the miscreants?

It so happens I don't like families sitting on the sidewalk waiting for a parade at MK. Can I pepperspray them?

I don't like it when my neighbors' son uses the sidewalk in front of my house (my upkeep, original subdivision builder had to pay to put in, although required by the city) to rollerblade, scooter ride and play catch. Do I have a right to pepperspray him for that?

For that matter, perhaps this whole idea of public sidewalks needs to be revisited. Perhaps those of us who maintain sidewalks on our property for the benefit of the general public should put up signs regulating their use. No sitting, no spitting, no hopscotch, no rollerblading, no protesting, no walking dogs, no hoping that a certain A lister will go jogging by while dawdling along pretending to walk. Not on MY portion of the sidewalk!

Perhaps you didn't understand theses sidewalks are on private property. The University owns those sidewalks and others have the right to use them and the University has the right to control who is on the property. Why should they walk around why don't the protesters move?

You can pepper spray anybody you want but you better be ready for them to use enforce their right to use that sidewalk in peace. The better thing would be to call security or police if you have a issue and let them handle your situation. The police decide what force level to use and if any laws are being violated.

Do you think Disney would allow an "Occupy Disney" with protesters sitting on the sidewalks down Main Street?

 

[PeterPan09]

Perhaps you didn't understand theses sidewalks are on private property. In the middle of an University. That being said, you don't have the right to do anything them. You call the police and they handle any situation. The police decide what force level to use if any.

So if the police decided to shoot these kids that would have been ok because it was private property and they can do whatever they want??? Really??? That's where you're going???

 

[Chris the CPA]

So if the police decided to shoot these kids that would have been ok because it was private property and they can do whatever they want??? Really??? That's where you're going???

Well if one of them pulled out a gun could they shoot them? Cops make professional decisions everyday in the level of force to use. You would rather have them break their arms to separate the human chain than use pepper spray to get them to separate?

I am glad that we have such ardent supporters of the first amendment over the rights of other citizens. I guess we should go ahead a let Westboro Baptist Church protest by the caskets at military funerals since they are just exercising their right to assemble?

 

[eliza61]

?

I am glad that we have such ardent supporters of the first amendment over the rights of other citizens. I guess we should go ahead a let Westboro Baptist Church protest by the caskets at military funerals since they are just exercising their right to assemble?

Listen Chris, anyone who has read any of my post pretty much knows my background. I hate, loathe and despise Westboro and I hate with a passion the KKK but I will defend their right to peaceful protest.

The best way to defeat evil is not by trying to ban it that just forces the wackadoodles to go under ground. The best way to stop the KKK is to stand up to them. Yes, they should be allowed to assemble but guess what, this is one sistah who will be right across the street counter protesting.

You know what a local church did when westboro threaten to come to a funeral of a service man? They organized local church's gospel choirs. They made one big choir ( had almost 500 volunteers to sing) and they let Westboro know that the choir would be right across from them singing beautiful hymns, giving glory to god for this wonderful service person.

As you can guess, the cowards at Westboro NEVER showed up. Haven't you notice that whenever Westboro claims to pickett some one and the news gets out and people start organizing counter demonstrations, they ALWAYS punk out!!!!


This nation is great because the benefits apply to everyone, even people we hate.
I fully supported the Muslims being able to open a mosque across from the 9/11 memorial. Did I like it? Heck No!! I'm a Native NewYorker. I know too many people who were effected by that horrible act. Did I support their right to practice their faith in a building they legally owned/. Yes, until the day I die.

 

[PeterPan09]

Well if one of them pulled out a gun could they shoot them? Cops make professional decisions everyday in the level of force to use. You would rather have them break their arms to separate the human chain than use pepper spray to get them to separate?

I am glad that we have such ardent supporters of the first amendment over the rights of other citizens. I guess we should go ahead a let Westboro Baptist Church protest by the caskets at military funerals since they are just exercising their right to assemble?

Yes, you do have to let the Westboro folks protest. Yes. That is the First Amendment. Of course, you are also free to invite that lovely group of Harley riders to "protest" also by parking in front of the Westboro crowd and revving their engines.

The First Amendment is difficult, because it demands that we acknowledge that people we do not like or agree with have the same rights that we do-BUT it is a large part of what makes this country exceptional.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Perhaps you didn't understand theses sidewalks are on private property. The University owns those sidewalks and others have the right to use them and the University has the right to control who is on the property. Why should they walk around why don't the protesters move?
You can pepper spray anybody you want but you better be ready for them to use enforce their right to use that sidewalk in peace. The better thing would be to call security or police if you have a issue and let them handle your situation. The police decide what force level to use and if any laws are being violated.

Do you think Disney would allow an "Occupy Disney" with protesters sitting on the sidewalks down Main Street?

For the same reason that people on MY sidewalk, on MY property that I have to upkeep, have to move around the little girls playing hopscotch.

The police do not get to decide anything in this circumstance. They must follow the law, just like the rest of us and a sidewalk that has the expectation of public use has the expectation of public use. You cannot just make it up to suit your own purpose, even if you are the maintainer and owner of that public space.

Even further, UC Davis, last time I checked, was NOT a privately funded university. It is an institution owned by the state. You know, the government. The people of California. The general public. Some of whom wanted to sit on the sidewalk. Which is their constitutionally protected right and no one can decide to remove that right because they don't like it.

 

[SaraJayne]

Well if one of them pulled out a gun could they shoot them? Cops make professional decisions everyday in the level of force to use. You would rather have them break their arms to separate the human chain than use pepper spray to get them to separate?

I am glad that we have such ardent supporters of the first amendment over the rights of other citizens. I guess we should go ahead a let Westboro Baptist Church protest by the caskets at military funerals since they are just exercising their right to assemble?

Umm, yes. That's the whole point of the First Amendment.

And even though you edited it out, your whole post still shows up in the quote.

 

[Chris the CPA]

For the same reason that people on MY sidewalk, on MY property that I have to upkeep, have to move around the little girls playing hopscotch.

The police do not get to decide anything in this circumstance. They must follow the law, just like the rest of us and a sidewalk that has the expectation of public use has the expectation of public use. You cannot just make it up to suit your own purpose, even if you are the maintainer and owner of that public space.

Even further, UC Davis, last time I checked, was NOT a privately funded university. It is an institution owned by the state. You know, the government. The people of California. The general public. Some of whom wanted to sit on the sidewalk. Which is their constitutionally protected right and no one can decide to remove that right because they don't like it.

Yes but they cannot impede the other citizens from that same right. You are trying to put the protesters rights ahead of the other students, faculity, and administrators. Do the students have a right to go into any building at anytime because they "own" it? Can you just go up and hang out in the Whitehouse because you own it? Do you have a right to go into any building anytime you want to because you own it? No you don't. If there was a terrorist hold up in your house and the police where outside negotiating with him they have the ability to keep you from your house.

 

[Chris the CPA]

Umm, yes. That's the whole point of the First Amendment.

And even though you edited it out, your whole post still shows up in the quote.

Then you should read what I wrote and what you highlighted. They cannot protest by the caskets on the private property of the cemetary. They can protest on public sidewalks and roads outside the cemetary as the courts have ruled.