Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

[undertheradar]

Do you think these problems are solely the domain of California? LOL. California is the only state with budget issues or tuition issues.

Sorry but imo too many people are NOT jumping on a bandwagon. That's been the problem with this country for the last 40 years and you see how well that's worked.

As long as it doesn't directly effect our little corner of the universe we don't give a hoot about it. The problem with that mentality is that this is a country, we either sink or swim together.

This thread is about the student protest at UC-Davis. It shows how narrow minded the students are and by what means they will attempt to draw attention to what they perceive to be an injustice. Like many other states, California is broke. We spend money feeding, clothing, educating and providing housing and healthcare for illegals. While not a unique problem for just California, the number of illegals is a tremendous problem. Our governor, in an effort to satisfy the latino voting block, is pushing the Dream Act. This will allow illegals to attend state universities, taking student openings from legal residents, and to attend state community colleges fee free. Somewhere, someone is going to have to pay more money for all of the demands of the protestors and the provisions of the Dream Act to be enforced.

I suggest that people read up on the Dream Act to understand why the taxpayers of California want this put to a vote. Some of the juicier aspects are items making it illegal to confiscate vehicles driven by illegals who might not have a legal driver's license, legal vehicle registration, or auto insurance as required by state law. The catch here, legal residents may still have vehicles impounded for these same violations. As I stated, there is much more tied into the legislation than just college education. So while these current protests are about tuition increase and have been going on for years, it is now a "hot button" political agenda when combined with coverage of Occupy Wall Street.

 

[undertheradar]

As for the cost of tuition. It is currently $32.00 per credit hour at the local community colleges. Tuition for California State Universities is a bargain at $12,000.00 per year, the in state privates are averaging $45,000.00 per year. Wait lists for the state schools are at all-time record highs and these students are protesting a system that if using private costs for comparison, the cost of attending 4 years of state school would only fund 1 and 1/4 years if they have to go the private route. They are getting a bargain compared to what is available nationwide.

 

[Chris the CPA]

Listen Chris, anyone who has read any of my post pretty much knows my background. I hate, loathe and despise Westboro and I hate with a passion the KKK but I will defend their right to peaceful protest.

The best way to defeat evil is not by trying to ban it that just forces the wackadoodles to go under ground. The best way to stop the KKK is to stand up to them. Yes, they should be allowed to assemble but guess what, this is one sistah who will be right across the street counter protesting.

You know what a local church did when westboro threaten to come to a funeral of a service man? They organized local church's gospel choirs. They made one big choir ( had almost 500 volunteers to sing) and they let Westboro know that the choir would be right across from them singing beautiful hymns, giving glory to god for this wonderful service person.

As you can guess, the cowards at Westboro NEVER showed up. Haven't you notice that whenever Westboro claims to pickett some one and the news gets out and people start organizing counter demonstrations, they ALWAYS punk out!!!!


This nation is great because the benefits apply to everyone, even people we hate.
I fully supported the Muslims being able to open a mosque across from the 9/11 memorial. Did I like it? Heck No!! I'm a Native NewYorker. I know too many people who were effected by that horrible act. Did I support their right to practice their faith in a building they legally owned/. Yes, until the day I die.

Eliza, I may not always agree with everything you say(not what I quoted above) but I respect the life you have lived and what you go through everyday. The Patriot Guard protected the funeral of a close loved one of mine that serve in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. He fought to protect the constitutional rights of all. I just believe that the rights of all have to be respected and you cannot ignore others rights and the rule of law because you believe in one cause over the other.

 

[No.17CherryTreeLane]

Eliza, I may not always agree with everything you say(not what I quoted above) but I respect the life you have lived and what you go through everyday. The Patriot Guard protected the funeral of a close loved one of mine that serve in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. He fought to protect the constitutional rights of all. I just believe that the rights of all have to be respected and you cannot ignore others rights and the rule of law because you believe in one cause over the other.

 

[PeterPan09]

Eliza, I may not always agree with everything you say(not what I quoted above) but I respect the life you have lived and what you go through everyday. The Patriot Guard protected the funeral of a close loved one of mine that serve in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. He fought to protect the constitutional rights of all. I just believe that the rights of all have to be respected and you cannot ignore others rights and the rule of law because you believe in one cause over the other.

I'm missing the extreme violation of rights caused by the student protest. If I'm wanting to walk on a sidewalk where a protest is being held, I'm either going to walk around it, through it or find another way to get where I need to go. I can't really see my rights being violated because I can't walk on a particular sidewalk.

I guess I'm just more tolerant of people's right to protest. I view that as more important than whether I can walk on a particular sidewalk.

 

[No.17CherryTreeLane]

I'm missing the extreme violation of rights caused by the student protest. If I'm wanting to walk on a sidewalk where a protest is being held, I'm either going to walk around it, through it or find another way to get where I need to go. I can't really see my rights being violated because I can't walk on a particular sidewalk.

I guess I'm just more tolerant of people's right to protest. I view that as more important than whether I can walk on a particular sidewalk.

Great, unless you happen to be in a wheelchair, or visually impaired, or elderly. Everyone at that university has rights, not just the protesters.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Great, unless you happen to be in a wheelchair, or visually impaired, or elderly. Everyone at that university has rights, not just the protesters.

So a demonstration should be banned because someone elderly, visually impaired or in a wheel chair might have a difficult time navigating the sidewalk?

Well shoot, using that logic, we should ban kids from playing hopscotch on the sidewalks, parades, rush hour and strollers.

 

[PeterPan09]

Great, unless you happen to be in a wheelchair, or visually impaired, or elderly. Everyone at that university has rights, not just the protesters.

I don't recall anyone saying that the protesters were the ONLY ones that had rights, first of all.

Secondly, I think we're reaching very hard to find something wrong with what these kids were doing. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that this particular sidewalk was the ONLY way that anyone on campus could get someplace. That wouldn't be practical under any circumstances-protest or no protest.

A couple of years ago, there were a lot of protests in this area by a particular group that was protesting something that a particular person was trying to do in Washington. (vagueness necessary to remain within rules) I had ZERO problem with them. They were in public parks, they were at town hall meetings, they were in front of buildings...and so on. The news reported on where they were going to be and the rest of us planned accordingly. They were exercising their rights. However, I find I didn't have to defend their rights as strenuously as I have to defend the rights of these kids, there just didn't seem to be as much of an effort to find some reason to make them go away. I didn't hear about them violating other people's rights.

If these kids looked like those people would we be even having this discussion? Would this ever have even occurred?

 

[eliza61]

Eliza, I may not always agree with everything you say(not what I quoted above) but I respect the life you have lived and what you go through everyday. The Patriot Guard protected the funeral of a close loved one of mine that serve in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. He fought to protect the constitutional rights of all. I just believe that the rights of all have to be respected and you cannot ignore others rights and the rule of law because you believe in one cause over the other.

I do too but the Patriot guard protected those loved ones by squashing others rights (if i understood it correctly, and I'm not an authority so don't bet the farm on me). So the dilemma becomes, in order to make the country safe do we take away our fundmental liberties which in turn destroys the country we're trying to keep safe. So by banning all forms of protest outside of military funerals do we destroy the thing they died for?

This is my dad.

Now remember after he recieved this, he had to get off the train in DC and go back to the "colored car" to even show it to my grandmother. So believe me it boils my buttons when I see WBC.

But unfotunately we cannot regulate morality, lord knows I wish we could. So what do we do about the Westboro wackadoodles? So since I can't force them to have respect or even common sense, IMO how I can stand up for our deceased is to, not so much make sure they have a proper burial but to make sure Westboro hears the message loud and clear that type of evil is not wanted in the US.

I don't want Westboro or skin heads or KKK or antigay nutcases to come back and say "most of the country feels like us, they're just scared to say so because of the Patriot act" or because they don't have the freedom to speak.

I want them to speak and then to know, without a shadow of a doubt, without any excuses how most of the country feels about them.

Great discussion Chris, thanks.

 

[eliza61]

Great, unless you happen to be in a wheelchair, or visually impaired, or elderly. Everyone at that university has rights, not just the protesters.

somehow I doubt if the protestors are incapable of seeing some one in a wheelchair and politely moving out of the way.

they're not going around kicking little old ladies.

 

[eliza61]

This thread is about the student protest at UC-Davis. It shows how narrow minded the students are and by what means they will attempt to draw attention to what they perceive to be an injustice. Like many other states, California is broke. We spend money feeding, clothing, educating and providing housing and healthcare for illegals. While not a unique problem for just California, the number of illegals is a tremendous problem. Our governor, in an effort to satisfy the latino voting block, is pushing the Dream Act. This will allow illegals to attend state universities, taking student openings from legal residents, and to attend state community colleges fee free. Somewhere, someone is going to have to pay more money for all of the demands of the protestors and the provisions of the Dream Act to be enforced.

I suggest that people read up on the Dream Act to understand why the taxpayers of California want this put to a vote. Some of the juicier aspects are items making it illegal to confiscate vehicles driven by illegals who might not have a legal driver's license, legal vehicle registration, or auto insurance as required by state law. The catch here, legal residents may still have vehicles impounded for these same violations. As I stated, there is much more tied into the legislation than just college education. So while these current protests are about tuition increase and have been going on for years, it is now a "hot button" political agenda when combined with coverage of Occupy Wall Street.

So I shouldn't get involved why? Once again because I live in NJ, I don't get an opinion?

May I suggest that if you are upset about the dream act or illegal immigration than you put together your own demonstration.

Seems to me those "narrow minded" students have more gumption than you do. they are at least putting their butts on the line (no matter what you think of them). What are you doing? Get your message out there if you feel that an injustice is being committed.

Got an illegal immigration problem? seems to me one way to solve that is to stop hiring Illegals. I could be terrible niave about it though. start cracking down on the people that are hiring them.



And Last but not least, the thread was about Pepper spraying some kids . So regardless to whether or not they are for or against the dream act, spoiled kids with nothing to do or all illegal aliens from the planet Zoorg, In this country there is a thing called the constitution. It pretty much covers all states including California. People get to protest without a gestapo swooping down doing bodily harm to them as long as they stay peaceful.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Pepper spray. Isn't it a form of non-lethal force? Sure, it looks pretty dramatic because it causes a violent reaction (which is the point). But I'm thinking pepper spray -along with its chemical cousin, mace -has saved a lot of lives over the last several years.

I think it's rough those protestors got squirted in the face with pepper spray, but it is hard to fault the cops who were just making the next logical move after having asked the crowd to disburse, and then saying that if they did not move the spray would be coming. To not have sprayed would have meant that the police's words were an empty threat.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the protestors. I just don't think I would have been surprised or outraged to have been sprayed. If I am intentionally not listening to or complying with legal orders of a police officer I should expect the officer to assist me in moving toward compliance, even if through use of non-lethal force. I would not get to pick and choose how I would like to be handled by the police. If they wanted to drag me off the sidewalk and to jail that would be up them; if they wanted to pepper spray me that would be up them as well.

 

[scheddj]

I cannot believe that there are people on here defending the use of weapons on un-armed, non-agressive students.

 

[Chris the CPA]

Let me personally thank you for your fathers service. I am grateful that he had the courage to stand for his country when parts of it would not stand for him.

I am not a expert on the Patriot Guard since Westboro did not show up but I know they provide an escort to the graveside and I think they form a human wall or something similar to try and shield the family from the protesters (at the families request).

 

[Chris the CPA]

I cannot believe that there are people on here defending the use of weapons on un-armed, non-agressive students.

Your hands are more of a lethal weapon than pepper spray.

 

[eliza61]

Pepper spray. Isn't it a form of non-lethal force? Sure, it looks pretty dramatic because it causes a violent reaction (which is the point). But I'm thinking pepper spray -along with its chemical cousin, mace -has saved a lot of lives over the last several years.

I think it's rough those protestors got squirted in the face with pepper spray, but it is hard to fault the cops who were just making the next logical move after having asked the crowd to disburse, and then saying that if they did not move the spray would be coming. To not have sprayed would have meant that the police's words were an empty threat.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the protestors. I just don't think I would have been surprised or outraged to have been sprayed. If I am intentionally not listening to or complying with legal orders of a police officer I should expect the officer to assist me in moving toward compliance, even if through use of non-lethal force. I would not get to pick and choose how I would like to be handled by the police. If they wanted to drag me off the sidewalk and to jail that would be up them; if they wanted to pepper spray me that would be up them as well.

I think it becomes a argument of "disporpotional" response. Unfortunately the police have to make these type of decisions often. I don't envy them.

Do you remember the flak in Philly over the teenager who got tazed at a phillies game? He ran onto the field, eluded park security for a few minutes and then the cops tazed him. Well all hell broke loose and the cop got severly discipline. I think he took early retirement and a huge cut on his pension in the end but anyway the public and the board set up to deal with police brutality declared it was an extensive and disportionate use of force. The Philadelphia Phillies immediately said they were reviewing their procedure. Basically the kid was running around, no one was in immenient danger and he was not aggresive so people thought the punishment was way harsher than need be.

So is it less lethel than shooting Yes, does it make it better if it only leads to eye damage?

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Your hands are more of a lethal weapon than pepper spray.

Especially if you happen to be Chuck Norris

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

I think it becomes a argument of "disporpotional" response. Unfortunately the police have to make these type of decisions often. I don't envy them.

Do you remember the flak in Philly over the guy who got tazed at a phillies game? He ran onto the field, eluded park security for a few minutes and then the cops tazed him. Well all hell broke loose and the cops got severly discipline. I think one took early retirement and a huge cut on his pension, but anyway the public and the board set up to deal with police brutality declared it was an extensive and disportionate use of force.

So is it less lethel than shooting Yes, does it make it better if it only leads to eye damage?

Seems like I do vaguely remember the Phillie flak. As you said, police officers have to make these decisions all the time, and I feel sorry for them that they do. I'm guessing the pepper spray was pretty much a matter of following established procedure.
The very best plan would be to move when the police ask you to move.

 

[Rabscuttle]

But a lot of times what develops out of protest is the one thing we seemed to have forgotten and that is COMPROMISE.
Maybe all these protest will do is put the university on alert that the students and their parents are watching what the school does with the money.
Did the University ever reach out to the students prior to raising the tuition and get any outside input (from what I read they did not). Are there areas where cuts in spending could have been made? Isn't it interesting that as a country most people don't want their taxes raise without spending cuts but in reality that is exactly what the university is doing.

So at the very minimum the protestor are sending a message to the university that they expect to be an active part of the financial process.

Personally, I wish more citizens started protesting at their states budget meetings and started making some demands, maybe we'd have less waste.

A state university can't raise tuition without the approval of the state government. I am a firm believer in those who use the services should pay for the services, particularly in higher education. California has a HUGE pension problem and it is eating up money for lots of other stuff. You can only tax the productive areas of society so much and then they leave. Take note of the businesses in California that have fled to Texas....where there is no income tax.

 

[Rabscuttle]

This thread is about the student protest at UC-Davis. It shows how narrow minded the students are and by what means they will attempt to draw attention to what they perceive to be an injustice. Like many other states, California is broke. We spend money feeding, clothing, educating and providing housing and healthcare for illegals. While not a unique problem for just California, the number of illegals is a tremendous problem. Our governor, in an effort to satisfy the latino voting block, is pushing the Dream Act. This will allow illegals to attend state universities, taking student openings from legal residents, and to attend state community colleges fee free. Somewhere, someone is going to have to pay more money for all of the demands of the protestors and the provisions of the Dream Act to be enforced.

I suggest that people read up on the Dream Act to understand why the taxpayers of California want this put to a vote. Some of the juicier aspects are items making it illegal to confiscate vehicles driven by illegals who might not have a legal driver's license, legal vehicle registration, or auto insurance as required by state law. The catch here, legal residents may still have vehicles impounded for these same violations. As I stated, there is much more tied into the legislation than just college education. So while these current protests are about tuition increase and have been going on for years, it is now a "hot button" political agenda when combined with coverage of Occupy Wall Street.

You have summed it up beautifully. There are many states right behind California in indebtedness and cost of running the government. Even those who do not live in California should take note.