Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

Your hands are more of a lethal weapon than pepper spray.

If they're not locked around the arms of the person next to me. I didn't see any arms raised in a threatening manner toward the police even after the pepper spraying began.
 
A state university can't raise tuition without the approval of the state government. I am a firm believer in those who use the services should pay for the services, particularly in higher education. California has a HUGE pension problem and it is eating up money for lots of other stuff. You can only tax the productive areas of society so much and then they leave. Take note of the businesses in California that have fled to Texas....where there is no income tax.

whew Nelly, did you get a look at where I live? LOL believe me baby, I know all about pension problems but with every thing all issues have 2 sides. for example.

In NJ the teachers pension fund was fully funded at about 150- 180% over what was necessary. Then Gov Whitman (I believe) came along and saw this nice big wad of cash just sitting there and decided to make it legal to raid the fund. So of course her and every Govenor after did the same thing.

So lets look at it this way, suppose you had your retirement nicely funded over 2x's what you would need. Then lets say your husband (if your a gal) decided to take that money and go to vegas and blow it. Where should I send the body parts after you got finish with him?

So now people are screaming about how they can't afford the state workers pensions anymore. Well, how come no one was screaming when they raided the workers pension? Now all of a sudden since the state workers have sue Gov Christie and forced him to put the money back in the budget all of a sudden they're the bad guys. Go figure.

Do they want taxes to go up, of course not but they also want the money that they paid into and that was there before our lovely elected officials got their greedy mitts on.

Now we have protestors in Trenton. They want to #1 make those types of deals transparent, because you know they did this all without the knowledge of the citizens and they want to make it illegal for the state to use pension funds to fill in budget holes else where. and of course just like with the students, you guys peg them as greedy, union agitators or hippies.
 
A state university can't raise tuition without the approval of the state government. I am a firm believer in those who use the services should pay for the services, particularly in higher education. California has a HUGE pension problem and it is eating up money for lots of other stuff. You can only tax the productive areas of society so much and then they leave. Take note of the businesses in California that have fled to Texas....where there is no income tax.

Which demonstrates the protest was misguided to start with. Any protest would have made more sense at the state capitol, not at the school.
 
I do too but the Patriot guard protected those loved ones by squashing others rights (if i understood it correctly, and I'm not an authority so don't bet the farm on me). So the dilemma becomes, in order to make the country safe do we take away our fundmental liberties which in turn destroys the country we're trying to keep safe. So by banning all forms of protest outside of military funerals do we destroy the thing they died for?

.

The Patriot Guard Riders to do squash anyone's rights. They attend the funerals of those fallen heros where they are INVITED. They ride their motorcycles, make a lot of noise and shield the mourners from the ignorant rable. They do not go where they are not invited. They do not prevent the protestors from protesting, they just drowned them out.
 

Your hands are more of a lethal weapon than pepper spray.

If you are going to quote my statement, feel free, but please don't add words like "lethal" that make it overly dramatic and inaccurate. I still cannot believe that some of you can justify the use of weapons on un-armed, non-agressive students.
 
If you are going to quote my statement, feel free, but please don't add words like "lethal" that make it overly dramatic and inaccurate. I still cannot believe that some of you can justify the use of weapons on un-armed, non-agressive students.

Aggression is in the eye of the beholder. Once they were asked to leave, they were trespassing.
 
I think the police made the best outof a bad situation. I don't think the protesters should have been ordered arrested in the first place, but once the order is given the cops have to respond. I think they felt pepper sprsy, which is almost harmless, was the best option for a "peaceful" arrest.

As for the protesters, I can't say I have much respect for them. Once again, it looks like a bunch of people protesting in the wrong place. It's no secret that California is broke and that they have cut aid to higher education. The school has to make that money up somewhere. I would think protesting in Sacremento would be a heck of a lot more effective and make more sense to boot. It's kind of like protesting your local gas station because the owner raised the price of gas without looking at how the oil companies raised the price of oil. The college isn't raising tuition in a vacuum. They are responding to the current economic climate. To me, it looks like the protesters either don't care enough or too ignorant of the big picture to actually protest against the people who are responsible for the tuition hikes.
 
On the illegal issue...I have to confess that I am not very liberal on that. I don't like that illegal immigrants put a demand on services. I'm not hot on the fact that companies use them as cheap labor so they can make larger profits. I would like to see HUGE fines leveled against any company that hires illegals. I want those fines big enough that it's no longer profitable to hire them.

However, these people are here and their kids are here. Many of the kids have been here their whole lives and aren't going anywhere. Given all that, I'd rather see them get a good education and become productive members of society than to stay here uneducated and become another drain on society.
 
On the illegal issue...I have to confess that I am not very liberal on that. I don't like that illegal immigrants put a demand on services. I'm not hot on the fact that companies use them as cheap labor so they can make larger profits. I would like to see HUGE fines leveled against any company that hires illegals. I want those fines big enough that it's no longer profitable to hire them.

However, these people are here and their kids are here. Many of the kids have been here their whole lives and aren't going anywhere. Given all that, I'd rather see them get a good education and become productive members of society than to stay here uneducated and become another drain on society.

While that sounds nice, that heavily discounted education is a magnet for more illegals, and preferential treatment over those American citizens who happen to live in a neighboring state. I don't believe out of state residents should get in state tuition but they should darn well get it before illegal aliens get it.
 
Which demonstrates the protest was misguided to start with. Any protest would have made more sense at the state capitol, not at the school.

So all those protesters that were around here locally a couple years ago should have gone to DC, right? After all, what they were protesting was decided there, so they have no right to protest in Orlando or at the city halls. Same with pro-life demonstrators. They should all go to the Supreme Court because that's where the law they are protesting was decided, right? They shouldn't be out on the sidewalks in front of clinics because they are infringing on people's rights to walk on those sidewalks.

Again, I see people twisting themselves around like pretzels trying to defend what happened here and make the students into villains. You're all putting conditions on them that you would never put onto other groups.
 
So all those protesters that were around here locally a couple years ago should have gone to DC, right? After all, what they were protesting was decided there, so they have no right to protest in Orlando or at the city halls. Same with pro-life demonstrators. They should all go to the Supreme Court because that's where the law they are protesting was decided, right? They shouldn't be out on the sidewalks in front of clinics because they are infringing on people's rights to walk on those sidewalks.

Again, I see people twisting themselves around like pretzels trying to defend what happened here and make the students into villains. You're all putting conditions on them that you would never put onto other groups.

No twisting logic here, PP09. My advice to any of those groups would be the same
... think long and hard about what and why you are protesting, and whether your protest is about effecting change or is it mostly an outlet for your frustration and the chance to be the fleeting center of attention in a great big world where you just might not be feeling like a special snowflake at the moment.
... when your legal right to protest infringes on the rights of others and you are legally asked to move, move


Pretzel? I think not.;)
 
If they're not locked around the arms of the person next to me. I didn't see any arms raised in a threatening manner toward the police even after the pepper spraying began.

I was referring to the police. More times than not the police can do more damage with their hands than with pepper spray.
 
On the illegal issue...I have to confess that I am not very liberal on that. I don't like that illegal immigrants put a demand on services. I'm not hot on the fact that companies use them as cheap labor so they can make larger profits. I would like to see HUGE fines leveled against any company that hires illegals. I want those fines big enough that it's no longer profitable to hire them.

However, these people are here and their kids are here. Many of the kids have been here their whole lives and aren't going anywhere. Given all that, I'd rather see them get a good education and become productive members of society than to stay here uneducated and become another drain on society.


I definately agree with the first part. The second part I am still having the internal debate on where I stand.
 
No twisting logic here, PP09. My advice to any of those groups would be the same
... think long and hard about what and why you are protesting, and whether your protest is about effecting change or is it mostly an outlet for your frustration and the chance to be the fleeting center of attention in a great big world where you just might not be feeling like a special snowflake at the moment.
... when your legal right to protest infringes on the rights of others and you are legally asked to move, move


Pretzel? I think not.;)


I support the right for ALL Americans to protest wherever they want about whatever they want peacefully without being pepper sprayed. Please, protest on my sidewalk-if I agree with you, I'll join you. If I don't, I'll give you a friendly wave as I pass by. I thought that would be how most Americans would feel, but maybe I'm wrong. Or, it could be more of the unique universe that is the DIS.
 
If you are going to quote my statement, feel free, but please don't add words like "lethal" that make it overly dramatic and inaccurate. I still cannot believe that some of you can justify the use of weapons on un-armed, non-agressive students.


Lethal or not the hands can definately do more damage than pepper spray. Police use it when a situation escalates so they know the force being used to get the situation under control. If it went to a street fight with the police being forced to use their hands, baton, or guns they have to make split second decisions on what level of force to use. Those are far more likely to end up being excessive.
 
I don't recall anyone saying that the protesters were the ONLY ones that had rights, first of all.

Secondly, I think we're reaching very hard to find something wrong with what these kids were doing. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that this particular sidewalk was the ONLY way that anyone on campus could get someplace. That wouldn't be practical under any circumstances-protest or no protest.

A couple of years ago, there were a lot of protests in this area by a particular group that was protesting something that a particular person was trying to do in Washington. (vagueness necessary to remain within rules) I had ZERO problem with them. They were in public parks, they were at town hall meetings, they were in front of buildings...and so on. The news reported on where they were going to be and the rest of us planned accordingly. They were exercising their rights. However, I find I didn't have to defend their rights as strenuously as I have to defend the rights of these kids, there just didn't seem to be as much of an effort to find some reason to make them go away. I didn't hear about them violating other people's rights.

If these kids looked like those people would we be even having this discussion? Would this ever have even occurred?

Doesn't permits have to be obtained for protest in Washington and around the national mall?
 
Lethal or not the hands can definately do more damage than pepper spray. Police use it when a situation escalates so they know the force being used to get the situation under control. If it went to a street fight with the police being forced to use their hands, baton, or guns they have to make split second decisions on what level of force to use. Those are far more likely to end up being excessive.

I agree with you. In that situation you have to make that snap judgement and pray you're right. This situation is totally different, a bunch of kids sitting down holding hands? This wasn't a snap judgement/safety related situation. Anyone whose judgement told them to use a weapon in that situation shouldn't have access to weapons!
 
Ten Things You Should Know About Friday’s UC Davis Police Violence
November 20, 2011 in Students

1. The protest at which UC Davis police officers used pepper spray and batons against unresisting demonstrators was an entirely nonviolent one.

None of the arrests at UC Davis in the current wave of activism have been for violent offenses. Indeed, as the New York Times reported this morning, the university’s administration has “reported no instances of violence by any protesters.” Not one.

2. The unauthorized tent encampment was dismantled before the pepper spraying began.

Students had set up tents on campus on Thursday, and the administration had allowed them to stay up overnight. When campus police ordered students to take the tents down on Friday afternoon, however, most complied. The remainder of the tents were quickly removed by police without incident before the pepper spray incident.

3. Students did not restrict the movement of police at any time during the demonstration.

After police made a handful of arrests in the course of taking down the students’ tents, some of the remaining demonstrators formed a wide seated circle around the officers and arrestees.

UC Davis police chief Annette Spicuzza has claimed that officers were unable to leave that circle: “There was no way out,” she told the Sacramento Bee. “They were cutting the officers off from their support. It’s a very volatile situation.” But multiple videos clearly show that the seated students made no effort to impede the officers’ movement. Indeed, Lt. Pike, who initiated the pepper spraying of the group, was inside the circle moments earlier. To position himself to spray, he simply stepped over the line.

4. Lt. Pike was not in fear for his safety when he sprayed the students.

Chief Spicuzza told reporters on Thursday that her officers had been concerned for their safety when they began spraying. But again, multiple videos show this claim to be groundless.

The most widely distributed video of the incident (viewed, as I write this, by nearly 700,000 people on YouTube) begins just moments before Lt. Pike begain spraying, but another video, which starts a few minutes earlier, shows Pike chatting amiably with one activist, even patting him casually on the back.

The pat on the back occurs just two minutes and nineteen seconds before Pike pepper sprayed the student he had just been chatting with and all of his friends.

5. University of California Police are not authorized to use pepper spray except in circumstances in which it is necessary to prevent physical injury to themselves or others.

From the University of California’s Universitywide Police Policies and Administrative Procedures: “Chemical agents are weapons used to minimize the potential for injury to officers, offenders, or other persons. They should only be used in situations where such force reasonably appears justified and necessary.”

6. UC police are not authorized to use physical force except to control violent offenders or keep suspects from escaping.

Another quote from the UC’s policing policy: “Arrestees and suspects shall be treated in a humane manner … they shall not be subject to physical force except as required to subdue violence or ensure detention. No officer shall strike an arrestee or suspect except in self-defense, to prevent an escape, or to prevent injury to another person.”

7. The UC Davis Police made no effort to remove the student demonstrators from the walkway peacefully before using pepper spray against them.

One video of the pepper-spray incident shows a group of officers moving in to remove the students from the walkway. Just as one of them reaches down to pick up a female student who was leaning against a friend, however, Lt. Pike waves the group back, clearing a space for him to use pepper spray without risk of accidentally spraying his colleagues.

8. Use of pepper spray and other physical force continued after the students’ minimal obstruction of the area around the police ended.

The line of seated students had begun to break up no more than eight seconds after Lt. Pike began spraying. The spraying continued, however, and officers soon began using batons and other physical force against the now-incapacitated group.

9. Even after police began using unprovoked and unlawful violence against the students, they remained peaceful.

Multiple videos show the aftermath of the initial pepper spraying and the physical violence that followed. In none of them do any of the assaulted students or any of the onlookers strike any of the officers who are attacking them and their friends.

10. The students’ commitment to nonviolence extended to their use of language.

At one point on Thursday afternoon, before the police attack on the demonstration, a few activists started a chant of “From Davis to Greece, **** the police.” They were quickly hushed by fellow demonstrators who urged them to “keep it nonviolent! Keep it peaceful!”

Their chant was replaced by one of “you use weapons, we use our voice.”

Six and a half minutes later, the entire group was pepper sprayed.
http://studentactivism.net/2011/11/...-know-about-fridays-uc-davis-police-violence/
 
The Patriot Guard Riders to do squash anyone's rights. They attend the funerals of those fallen heros where they are INVITED. They ride their motorcycles, make a lot of noise and shield the mourners from the ignorant rable. They do not go where they are not invited. They do not prevent the protestors from protesting, they just drowned them out.

Let me personally thank you for your fathers service. I am grateful that he had the courage to stand for his country when parts of it would not stand for him.

I am not a expert on the Patriot Guard since Westboro did not show up but I know they provide an escort to the graveside and I think they form a human wall or something similar to try and shield the family from the protesters (at the families request).


Oh sorry guys, I totally got the wrong thing in my head. I thought you meant the patriot act. Remember the legislation that allowed police officers and other agencies to begin wire taping individuals.

10 lashes with a wet noodle for me!!

Yep the patriot guard guys are great. I saw a thing on my local PBS station on them last year. :thumbsup2
 













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