Pepper Spraying Students at UC-Davis

[LuvsDragonflies]

What's your question?

Why shouldn't NJ people be talking about the event? Is it something I'm missing? Is it a particulare person from NJ you are speaking to or the state occupants in general? Do you JUST mean NJ because of some pertinent information or would it really apply to anyone that doesn't live in CA?

I go out for a couple hours and come back lost,

 

[Lucille1963]

What procedure was that? Do you have access to the policy and procedures manual of the UC-Davis campus police.

Yes. Here it is.
http://www.ucop.edu/ucophome/coordrev/ucpolicies/documents/policepol_adminproc.pdf

 

[undertheradar]

Why shouldn't NJ people be talking about the event? Is it something I'm missing? Is it a particulare person from NJ you are speaking to or the state occupants in general? Do you JUST mean NJ because of some pertinent information or would it really apply to anyone that doesn't live in CA?

I go out for a couple hours and come back lost,

I just find it interesting that the most vocal opponents of what took place are from outside of California. We, like so many other states, have an evergrowing base draining an evershrinking money pool. We have people from across the country providing commentary that the Constitution is being violated by attempting to disburse the student demonstration. These demonstrations are held every time the regents meet and they have been demonstrating these meetings for decades. I would just like it if each state regulated the funding for higher education without interference from people who will have zero impact from funding or taxation to increase the funding. I equate it to a community wanting to increase sales tax and instead of those residents who will be the most impacted from the change voting, everyone else in the country or the world getting to vote for it. Our state is gutting funding for seniors, mental health, elementary education, the list goes on. While a higher education is a want, it is not a right. We cannot continue to subsidize the cost of higher education for those who cannot afford it, that is the reality of California's financial state. These students are protesting any increase, no matter how much money is involved.

 

[No.17CherryTreeLane]

But, what about the students that pay to go there and live there? Are they allowed to sit on their own sidewalks? You know, the ones they sorta rent when they pay tuition for the time the attend the school.

They deliberately formed a human chain for the purpose of blocking traffic, and then refused all requests to move to the side.

That's different than just sitting on a sidewalk. The protesters were very clear that they had no intention of moving to allow those other tuition-payers the freedom to use the sidewalk.

 

[cornflake]

As noted, this goes on everyplace and, as noted in the thread, like two days ago, there were student protests at CUNY and SUNY sites, with 15 arrests when the protesters tried to infiltrate a closed trustee meeting.

The reason that's not a national story is because the NYPD didn't (this time), use inappropriate force or cause an incident. There was an altercation, they simply grabbed and removed people who were involved in the altercation, it was a news blurb for the tuition hikes and protest and nothing more.

Had the cop not done what he'd done, this thread wouldn't exist.

 

[CPT Tripss]

As someone who is overtaxed and California is wanting to increase taxes to help lessen the burden on these students by taking money from my household, yes, I believe that taxpaying residents of California have a vested interest in these actions. If research was done, you would see that households with income under $30,000.00 per year pay zero state income tax, the rest of us pay much more. Again, why shouldn't everyone in the nation or the world for that matter have a say in how California funds higher education. I know that I don't believe that anyone other than Californians should be deciding how to spend state funds. Unless of course you would like Californians helping New Jersey residents find new ways to help fund the raided pension funds, just as was done here. Exactly how do you propose to fund these discounted educations without further raiding of pension funds? You do not have an unlimited source of funding and since less than 50% of residents contribute via income taxes, how much higher do you think personal taxes can be raised before there is a revolt of the taxpayers who fund this little state known as California?

As for hiring illegals, isn't Camden's Campbells Soup one of the biggest violators of hiring illegals or has that been corrected in the past year? Surely the residents of New Jersey don't partake in hiring day labor or undocumented domestic help?

In regards to police activity, it looks as if Philadelphia is as bad as it was in the 70's. If a little pepper spray is so unsettling, what about when city of Philadelphia employees set off the incidiary device that resulted in all of the homes lost from the attempt to rid MOVE from Philadelphia?

Surely you have learned that the former Los Angeles police chief is being hired to investigate the UC-Davis pepper spray incident? This is questionable given that the federal government gained oversight for actions against minorities during his command.

You are aware that students were instructed multiple times to disburse? Ignoring the instructions of the police crosses the line with regards to peaceful demonstration. Which part of being asked to disburse were you implying violated the Constitution?

What's going on in Philly that you are likening to the MOVE killings?

as far as I'm concerned, the question here isn't whether or not CA should change its funding of higher education. The question is, did the police act appropriately in using pepper spray?

What is the difference between disperse and disburse? In this article we compare disburse vs disperse, give definitions of both disperse and disburse, and give you tips on when it is proper to use disperse or disburse.

If we disburse their bonuses, maybe the angry crowd will disperse. Although the words disburse and disperse look rather similar and sound very similar, they have different roots and meanings. Unlike with most pairs easily confused words, in this case, knowing the etymology may add to the difficulty, so this article will help clarify those issues, as well as meaning differences for you.

Disburse

Disburse is a transitive verb that means “to pay out.” Here is an example:

On Friday, the lender disbursed the funds for my student loan, so I expect that the college will receive notification within a matter of days.

Disperse

Disperse is both a transitive verb (one that takes an object) and an intransitive verb (one that functions without an object). It’s meanings range from “break up” to “ separate” to “drive away” to scatter” to “share or distribute.” Here are examples:

Transitive: The gentleman speaking quite loudly in the park gazebo insisted that he was merely dispersing knowledge to seekers of wisdom, not disturbing the peace.

Intransitive: To restart a rugby game, the players on each side gather in a standardized form called a scrum (short for scrummage), engage with each other, competing for the ball, and then disperse across the field.

http://www.educationbug.org/a/disburse-vs-disperse.html

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

I just find it interesting that the most vocal opponents of what took place are from outside of California. We, like so many other states, have an evergrowing base draining an evershrinking money pool. We have people from across the country providing commentary that the Constitution is being violated by attempting to disburse the student demonstration. These demonstrations are held every time the regents meet and they have been demonstrating these meetings for decades. I would just like it if each state regulated the funding for higher education without interference from people who will have zero impact from funding or taxation to increase the funding. I equate it to a community wanting to increase sales tax and instead of those residents who will be the most impacted from the change voting, everyone else in the country or the world getting to vote for it. Our state is gutting funding for seniors, mental health, elementary education, the list goes on. While a higher education is a want, it is not a right. We cannot continue to subsidize the cost of higher education for those who cannot afford it, that is the reality of California's financial state. These students are protesting any increase, no matter how much money is involved.

And what you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care what the students were protesting about. You don't pepper spray peaceful protesters. Period. Every time we allow the government to do such a thing, we lose a bit more of our freedom. I don't care what your message is. You don't use a CHEMICAL WEAPON that has been BANNED IN WARFARE on peaceful American protesters.

 

[cornflake]

They deliberately formed a human chain for the purpose of blocking traffic, and then refused all requests to move to the side.

That's different than just sitting on a sidewalk. The protesters were very clear that they had no intention of moving to allow those other tuition-payers the freedom to use the sidewalk.

Yes, that's the point of a human chain, of a sit-in, of a march, etc., it's a show of strength and numbers and commitment. That's... the point.

If people who chained themselves together around the 200-year-old tree someone wanted to cut down would just disperse because someone told them to, what would be the point in going?

If the students at Columbia just gave up control of the building they took over because someone asked, what would be the point?

If the people sitting at the lunch counter got up and moved because they were told to, what would be the point?

They were protesting. There's a point. They were making it.

 

[cornflake]

And what you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care what the students were protesting about. You don't pepper spray peaceful protesters. Period. Every time we allow the government to do such a thing, we lose a bit more of our freedom. I don't care what your message is. You don't use a CHEMICAL WEAPON that has been BANNED IN WARFARE on peaceful American protesters.

This. They could have been a bunch of KKK morons protesting that there are black kids allowed in the school. Had they been sitting, the same way, doing the same thing, I'd be here, saying the same stuff. In that case, the cops say move or we'll move you, the KKK morons go limp, they get picked up, etc. At no point should there be weaponry involved unless there's an actual physical threat or altercation warranting that level of force being necessary to quell it.

 

[No.17CherryTreeLane]

Yes, that's the point of a human chain, of a sit-in, of a march, etc., it's a show of strength and numbers and commitment. That's... the point.

If people who chained themselves together around the 200-year-old tree someone wanted to cut down would just disperse because someone told them to, what would be the point in going?

If the students at Columbia just gave up control of the building they took over because someone asked, what would be the point?

If the people sitting at the lunch counter got up and moved because they were told to, what would be the point?

They were protesting. There's a point. They were making it.

Of course that's...the point. It's a protest, not just some kids who happen to be sitting on a sidewalk. That was...my point.

And thank you for the history lesson, but we all know that protests are about not getting up and moving, because what would be the point?

The only thing I am concerned with is whether or not they were breaking the law by blocking the sidewalk. That's it.

And to be clear, I don't think breaking that law would justify the use of pepper spray.

 

[Lucille1963]

And what you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care what the students were protesting about. You don't pepper spray peaceful protesters. Period. Every time we allow the government to do such a thing, we lose a bit more of our freedom. I don't care what your message is. You don't use a CHEMICAL WEAPON that has been BANNED IN WARFARE on peaceful American protesters.

 

[eliza61]

As someone who is overtaxed and California is wanting to increase taxes to help lessen the burden on these students by taking money from my household, yes, I believe that taxpaying residents of California have a vested interest in these actions. If research was done, you would see that households with income under $30,000.00 per year pay zero state income tax, the rest of us pay much more. Again, why shouldn't everyone in the nation or the world for that matter have a say in how California funds higher education. I know that I don't believe that anyone other than Californians should be deciding how to spend state funds. Unless of course you would like Californians helping New Jersey residents find new ways to help fund the raided pension funds, just as was done here. Exactly how do you propose to fund these discounted educations without further raiding of pension funds? You do not have an unlimited source of funding and since less than 50% of residents contribute via income taxes, how much higher do you think personal taxes can be raised before there is a revolt of the taxpayers who fund this little state known as California?

As for hiring illegals, isn't Camden's Campbells Soup one of the biggest violators of hiring illegals or has that been corrected in the past year? Surely the residents of New Jersey don't partake in hiring day labor or undocumented domestic help?

In regards to police activity, it looks as if Philadelphia is as bad as it was in the 70's. If a little pepper spray is so unsettling, what about when city of Philadelphia employees set off the incidiary device that resulted in all of the homes lost from the attempt to rid MOVE from Philadelphia?

Surely you have learned that the former Los Angeles police chief is being hired to investigate the UC-Davis pepper spray incident? This is questionable given that the federal government gained oversight for actions against minorities during his command.

You are aware that students were instructed multiple times to disburse? Ignoring the instructions of the police crosses the line with regards to peaceful demonstration. Which part of being asked to disburse were you implying violated the Constitution?

This part.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In the case of the students we can extend the use of the government to mean local government.



THATS MY POINT!! I did not live here when the move incident occured so I can't speak to that. but Yes, I do want californians to get upset at our police brutality issues. YES!! I want everyone in the country to get mad about the Penn State molestation case. Why in the world do you feel that any place should be allowed to mistreat it's citizens and only the members of that neighborhood are allowed to voice an opinion. REALLY.

YOU don't find that extremely sad. So what you're saying is if Westboro church pickets some military funeral as long as it doesn't effect you, you could care less. If Blacks are denied the right to vote in Arksansa as long as your not inconvenience your perfectly ok with that happening?

Sorry girlfriend but the constitution does not read "you have the right to free asembly UNTIL the authorities tell you to leave". That is called North Korea and Egypt and we see how the egyptians are trying to get rid of that particular problem.

No where did I or anyone else here say we wanted a say on what your state does with its money and you are the only person who keeps bringing it up. What we did say is no police force, government agency has the right to act outside the guidelines of the bill of rights. its non negotiable, should not and will not be tolerated. If it happens in California or in Wyoming, it will be fought.

What we did say is that the CONSTITUTION applies to every state. people can protest without getting beat up, harrased, intimidated or any thing else by the authorities.

We are not arguing whether or not the students have a legitimate gripe, we are arguing the students right to whatever grievance they feel they have and to peacefully gather to redress those grievances.

 

[eliza61]

This. They could have been a bunch of KKK morons protesting that there are black kids allowed in the school. Had they been sitting, the same way, doing the same thing, I'd be here, saying the same stuff. In that case, the cops say move or we'll move you, the KKK morons go limp, they get picked up, etc. At no point should there be weaponry involved unless there's an actual physical threat or altercation warranting that level of force being necessary to quell it.

I'm so not understanding why this should only be concerning Californians?

 

[undertheradar]

And what you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't care what the students were protesting about. You don't pepper spray peaceful protesters. Period. Every time we allow the government to do such a thing, we lose a bit more of our freedom. I don't care what your message is. You don't use a CHEMICAL WEAPON that has been BANNED IN WARFARE on peaceful American protesters.

Exactly how many times must the police request that the peaceful protestors disperse before it becomes a criminal act by the protestors? Had the protestors obeyed the request to end the protest they would not have had the experience of being pepper sprayed. They were at school so it must qualify as a lesson learned?

 

[undertheradar]

This part.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

In the case of the students we can extend the use of the government to mean local government.



THATS MY POINT!! I did not live here when the move incident occured so I can't speak to that. but Yes, I do want californians to get upset at our police brutality issues. YES!! I want everyone in the country to get mad about the Penn State molestation case. Why in the world do you feel that any place should be allowed to mistreat it's citizens and only the members of that neighborhood are allowed to voice an opinion. REALLY.

YOU don't find that extremely sad. So what you're saying is if Westboro church pickets some military funeral as long as it doesn't effect you, you could care less. If Blacks are denied the right to vote in Arksansa as long as your not inconvenience your perfectly ok with that happening?

Sorry girlfriend but the constitution does not read "you have the right to free asembly UNTIL the authorities tell you to leave". That is called North Korea and Egypt and we see how the egyptians are trying to get rid of that particular problem.

No where did I or anyone else here say we wanted a say on what your state does with its money and you are the only person who keeps bringing it up. What we did say is no police force, government agency has the right to act outside the guidelines of the bill of rights. its non negotiable, should not and will not be tolerated. If it happens in California or in Wyoming, it will be fought.

What we did say is that the CONSTITUTION applies to every state. people can protest without getting beat up, harrased, intimidated or any thing else by the authorities.

We are not arguing whether or not the students have a legitimate gripe, we are arguing the students right to whatever grievance they feel they have and to peacefully gather to redress those grievances.

To the point, Westboro is scum. Were you at the funeral for one of the young men my son played football with? Those idiots attempted to attend and were blocked by veterans and members of the community.

The students at UC-Davis were allowed to protest on a thursday and overnight into friday. They were requested to end the protest and chose to ignore that request by the administration. The police issued requests for the students to end the assembly and those requests were ignored. No matter how the police attempted to end the protest, the students were refusing to cooperate. The students were warned and still refused to end the assembly. All the students had to do was move along and they refused to do so. Had they been forcibly removed it would involve complaints of brutality. This is an instance where the students took it too far and the police response is questionable. Had the students simply honored the request and ended the protest, there would have been no further issue. They were allowed to exercise free speech, they weren't willing to compromise to bring it to a peaceful end.

 

[Art 1]

Exactly how many times must the police request that the peaceful protestors disperse before it becomes a criminal act by the protestors? Had the protestors obeyed the request to end the protest they would not have had the experience of being pepper sprayed. They were at school so it must qualify as a lesson learned?

Exactly. The police were right in doing what they did. Time to go back to school children.

 

[Lucille1963]

Exactly. The police were right in doing what they did. Time to go back to school children.

I think quite a few Americans need to go back to school and the first class should be "The First Amendment".

 

[LuvsDragonflies]

I think quite a few Americans need to go back to school and the first class should be "The First Amendment".

Well played Lucille, well played.

First Amendment people, use it or lose it.

 

[cornflake]

Exactly how many times must the police request that the peaceful protestors disperse before it becomes a criminal act by the protestors? Had the protestors obeyed the request to end the protest they would not have had the experience of being pepper sprayed. They were at school so it must qualify as a lesson learned?

If you're asking me - I'll go with there is no number of times, because the Amendment, which is quoted in this thread, doesn't specify that the right to assemble and petition covers 4 hours of assembly, or assembly until the cops ask you to move, or anything else.

However - if it's a criminal act because they're on private property (which in this case is arguable), then the answer is they can ask all they want and it becomes a criminal act when they decide it does (as it's generally a desk ticket-level offense).

Whether it becomes a criminal act or not has nothing to do with pepper spraying anyone. It doesn't matter what type of criminal act is being committed, the use of force and/or weaponry depends solely on the level of force being demonstrated by the perpetrator(s) and the force needed (and not in excess of that) to quell violence, subdue a violent suspect or remove the imminent threat of violence to the public or law enforcement.

A bunch of students sitting on the ground crosslegged, arms linked, presented no threat, were not violent and nothing they did warranted any use of force.

If it's a criminal act - arrest them. The students were fully prepared for the consequences of their actions. That's why they sat down and linked arms, because they knew the cops were going to arrest them. That's what you do. That's what they did. The cops were the ones lost the plot.

 

[Acklander]

Had the students simply honored the request and ended the protest, there would have been no further issue. They were allowed to exercise free speech, they weren't willing to compromise to bring it to a peaceful end.

And had the police followed proper procedure, there would have been no further issue. It was a peaceful demonstration. The police escalated it to a violent demonstration. The police were wrong.