OT - Puppy snapping and growling at my kids (update on post #54)

[RMAMom]

I agree that most of the behaviors you have described are learned behaviors. Your pup is 4 months old he is a baby and everything will go in his mouth, if he is chewing everything then he hasn't earned the right to be free in the house. I would confine him somewhere like the kitchen until he is a little older and you can trust him. His growling is probably playful at this point and although it seems scary he is just playing and from what you described the kids are his favorite "toys" The second his teeth touch skin all play should stop, leave the room for 30 seconds and then come back. This will teach bite inhibition and there are tons of info on the web so google it and educate yourself

There is no way I would let the kids feed him or give him treats. At 4 months he should be fed 3 times a day, put his food down, give him 20 minutes and put it away, If he doesn't eat he will soon learn that meal time is not play time and will eat. Also the kids should not touch him or his food while eating, who wants that harassment while trying to eat a meal.

As for exercise running around a yard, no matter how big, is not enough exercise for a high energy puppy. He needs to be walked daily for 20 to 30 minutes as he grows but you can also tire him out mentally. A training session where he spends 30 - 45 minutes thinking will work wonders, you can also buy some toys that will make him think buy a tug a jug or a kong wobbler and put his kibble from one of his meals in it. It will keep him busy and wear him out. When he is antsy and making you crazy you can also put a handful or two of kibble in a water bottle and put it on the floor and he will have to figure out how to get it out.From what little you have written about your trainer I wouldn't have him back. Find a behaviorist / trainer that teaches positive reinforcement. You were right to ask for help, you have a baby with bad habits but you need to search your area for the right trainer.
I would also google NILF it will make a huge difference in life with your pup.

 

[DisneyF4]

I know this sounds harsh but I would let the dog go now while he is still young enough to find good home without children. Some dogs just do not do well with children no matter what breed they are.

My family was in a similar situation a few years ago, and we wound up adopting out our beautiful 11 month old German Shepard puppy for this very reason.
We worked with her until we felt we had no other option before finally deciding to let her go, and it was one of the toughest decisions we've ever made.
Now we have a very sweet Border Collie/Black Lab mix, and she is such a blessing to our family.
You have to first and foremost protect your family; sometimes it just doesn't work with some dogs, and don't feel badly about it either. Also, the dog has to understand from the beginning that it cannot dominate any member of your family. Our new puppy used to think my younger daughter could be dominated, but after a couple of smacks across the nose with a paper, she learned differently. Don't let any of these so called "behaviorists" lead you to believe that using a paper is wrong either. Our trainer actually taught us this method, and it has worked well with our dogs for years.
Good luck!

 

[100AcreWood]

Thanks again. We're working closely with our vet, the dog trainer and our breeder (who is a top-notch breeder in our area). We decided to give the dog another 30 days and see what we can do to correct the behavior before making any big decisions. Now, in that time if his behavior escalates we'll find him a new home without children.

Hoping today will be a better day. He growled twice yesterday but fortunately didn't snap at anyone. As far as exercise, he gets as much exercise as he will allow. We play until he is tired and he refuses to walk. He literally sits on the sidewalk refusing to move. This is another issue we're working on. He only walks when you say fine let's go home.

 

[zuzu310]

I don't usually think of this with Goldens but...I know with German Shepherds there sometimes comes a time when they will challenge you as puppies. If you don't break them then, they will rule you. We had a small poodle growing up that was kind of snappy also and this was what was suggested. When she was out of control, we would flip her on her back and hold her there until she stopped fighting. It showed dominance. I know it sounds mean. This is the same thing lots of people do with more aggressive breeds as puppies. With Germans, a trainer I knew would flip the puppy on his back (on the floor of course), hold around his neck (NOT choking-the hand was just placed there), and wait for him to stop fighting. It was only then that the dog understood dominance. I know this all sounds mean but in the dog world that is how they are shown dominance and I think with some dogs it can take longer to sink in.

 

[maggs1035]

Please make sure you have a crate to send him too! Not only is it a time out for you, its a break for the dog! They need their own space. My vet says dogs like crates, they don't like not having a place to go!

 

[jrmasm]

I don't usually think of this with Goldens but...I know with German Shepherds there sometimes comes a time when they will challenge you as puppies. If you don't break them then, they will rule you. We had a small poodle growing up that was kind of snappy also and this was what was suggested. When she was out of control, we would flip her on her back and hold her there until she stopped fighting. It showed dominance. I know it sounds mean. This is the same thing lots of people do with more aggressive breeds as puppies. With Germans, a trainer I knew would flip the puppy on his back (on the floor of course), hold around his neck (NOT choking-the hand was just placed there), and wait for him to stop fighting. It was only then that the dog understood dominance. I know this all sounds mean but in the dog world that is how they are shown dominance and I think with some dogs it can take longer to sink in.

Alpha rolls should never be done by anyone that is not a dog trainer!!!!!!

OP, have you considered meeting with another trainer for a second opinion?

 

[100AcreWood]

I have considered getting another opinion. My trainer is coming on Monday to our house to access the situation. We'll figure out what to do from there. I feel confident in her professional opinion at this point.

Also, he is crate trained. We've had several puppies in the past. We're definitely not young or new at this. In fact this time I would say we've finally got the rules right on what to do. I know the mistakes we've made in the past with puppies and we've worked really hard to not repeat. However, I'm still analyzing the situation to see if we need to change anything. We put away the ropes. Of course he is trying to get us to tug with his tennis ball now. Crazy boy.

That said, he is showing dominance over the kids. He knows not to mess with us. I have no fear of the dog. But I can't ask one of my children to show him who's boss when that could lead to them getting bitten. My 10 year old dd jumps when he snaps so it's probably reinforcing his behavior.

 

[robinb]

Thanks again. We're working closely with our vet, the dog trainer and our breeder (who is a top-notch breeder in our area). We decided to give the dog another 30 days and see what we can do to correct the behavior before making any big decisions. Now, in that time if his behavior escalates we'll find him a new home without children.

I'm glad that you are giving him another 30 days. You seem to be doing all the right things, except I am not so sure about your trainer. Can your breeder suggest someone else? I find some of methods to be perplexing. I can't believe that he things that tug of war is a good idea for a large breed puppy, especially one with a high prey drive (his cat intensity). See this video from Cesar Milan: http://www.cesarsway.com/training/affection/Tug-of-War-with-Your-Dog that addresses this very thing.

Hoping today will be a better day. He growled twice yesterday but fortunately didn't snap at anyone. As far as exercise, he gets as much exercise as he will allow. We play until he is tired and he refuses to walk. He literally sits on the sidewalk refusing to move. This is another issue we're working on. He only walks when you say fine let's go home.

Your trainer also seems baffled that your dog doesn't want to walk on a leash unless he's heading home. Your puppy has now moved past the kids in the pack and has his eyes on you. He doesn't want you to tell him what to do anymore and he is throwing a puppy hissy fit by sitting down and refusing to move. WALKING the dog on a leash should be his exercise. Playing with him in the backyard is a REWARD. Petting him is a REWARD. He should earn his rewards with good behavior. I would have him on a leash at all times that he is out of his crate. I would not play with him in the back yard and I would not allow him to potty off the leash. Sure, you need to expend his energy but it's more important to reestablish pack order first. Oh ... and if he's sleeping on your bed he needs to sleep in his crate.

I do have one question. How old was he when you brought him home? Maybe he was taken away from his mom and littermates too soon? He was beaten up in puppy class as if he didn't know how to play with the other pups properly and now he is trying to establish himself as a leader without really knowing how to go about it.

Good luck! I think it's a good idea to give this pup more time to adjust his place in the pack. I hope that things work out for you and him .

 

[Texashokies]

If your kids are frightened of the dog, then IMHO the dog needs to go.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the idea that nipping is normal puppy behavior. There is a big difference between puppies using their mouths to play and nipping. There is also a big difference between growling in play and snarling. Play growls and mouthing can be trained out of a dog. The other can be trained to be dormant, but when push comes to shove the dog will revert back to its instinctual behavior.

What you are describing is aggressive behavior that is putting your kids at risk of injury. How are you going to feel if the dog DOES bite your child and cause harm?

Next time you pick out a puppy there are some simple things you can do to see if the dog's personality is more submissive or aggressive. Tug firmly on the dog's tails, legs, & ears. Push the dog around and make it topple over. How does it react? If it growls or nips, then don't bring it home. If it gets super nervous & scared, then don't bring it home. If it rolls over in submission or wags it's tail and asks for more, then the dog is a keeper.

 

[100AcreWood]

If your kids are frightened of the dog, then IMHO the dog needs to go.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the idea that nipping is normal puppy behavior. There is a big difference between puppies using their mouths to play and nipping. There is also a big difference between growling in play and snarling. Play growls and mouthing can be trained out of a dog. The other can be trained to be dormant, but when push comes to shove the dog will revert back to its instinctual behavior.

What you are describing is aggressive behavior that is putting your kids at risk of injury. How are you going to feel if the dog DOES bite your child and cause harm?

Next time you pick out a puppy there are some simple things you can do to see if the dog's personality is more submissive or aggressive. Tug firmly on the dog's tails, legs, & ears. Push the dog around and make it topple over. How does it react? If it growls or nips, then don't bring it home. If it gets super nervous & scared, then don't bring it home. If it rolls over in submission or wags it's tail and asks for more, then the dog is a keeper.

That's exactly what we did and he was very submissive. The breeder has been around this breed for 30 years and she selected him for us. She is baffled that he flipped a switch on us. Of all the puppies in the litter he was most interested in my kids. One of the other puppies actually hid from us.

Another poster asked me how old he was when we picked him up. He was 9 weeks old. I can honestly say we picked one of the best breeders in the southeast. She is very very into her breed. No bad experiences from anyone and I wouldn't consider any of this her fault.

He growled twice this morning at my dd again. He is really targeting her.

 

[theworldneedscolor]

If your kids are frightened of the dog, then IMHO the dog needs to go.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with the idea that nipping is normal puppy behavior. There is a big difference between puppies using their mouths to play and nipping. There is also a big difference between growling in play and snarling. Play growls and mouthing can be trained out of a dog. The other can be trained to be dormant, but when push comes to shove the dog will revert back to its instinctual behavior.

What you are describing is aggressive behavior that is putting your kids at risk of injury. How are you going to feel if the dog DOES bite your child and cause harm?

Next time you pick out a puppy there are some simple things you can do to see if the dog's personality is more submissive or aggressive. Tug firmly on the dog's tails, legs, & ears. Push the dog around and make it topple over. How does it react? If it growls or nips, then don't bring it home. If it gets super nervous & scared, then don't bring it home. If it rolls over in submission or wags it's tail and asks for more, then the dog is a keeper.

I'm sorry to say it, but I agree with this poster also. We has a lab for about five or six years, and for a while he was the PERFECT dog. I mean, he barked and was bad on the leash, but he was sooo sweet and loving. And then it the last year or two, he totally turned. He would bite for now reason. Like I was just petting him, and he suddenly snapped and I had to go to Urgent Care. My sister also was bit by him multiple times, and she had to get stitches once. He bit my mom as well, but never my dad. We took him to the vet, but he couldn't find anything that was wrong with him. He wasn't old, deaf, sick...nothing. We ended up giving him to a farm. One of the saddest days of my life, but we couldn't keep our family in danger. Now we are happy with our little Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, but I still get anxious around bigger dogs.

 

[maggs1035]

You need Caesar Milan The dog Whisperer

 

[100AcreWood]

You need Caesar Milan The dog Whisperer

Gotta love Caesar! The video a pp posted was awesome. Super helpful!

 

[Order66]

I've been a vet tech and have shown, bred and trained dogs (large dominant dogs) for 20+ years. I don't say this lightly...........send this dog back. Your breeder sounds involved and caring, but is completely wrong for encouraging you to "work it out" with this dog.

This dog is too dominant for your family. I have owned and bred some hard tough dogs, SCH titled dogs and never would I tolerate this behavior from a 4 month old. Puppy just don't act like this, even dogs that grow up to be working dogs. Pups like this are not for the average owner and for his breed, just an unacceptable temperament. Your breeder should recognize this and between him and a pup that was fearful of you.......neuter both the parents! Great breeder or not, this was not a quality litter of Goldens.

What you are describing, the dog doesn't respect the humans in this family. He sees himself as alpha and is a social climber who is picking the weakest members of the "pack" out first to show his authority to. Beginning with your DD who is afraid. He's a bully and he knows how to correct her. He may even have some fear aggression, but combined with a civil instinct to bite this can create a very dangerous animal.

Working with a trainer is great and the right step. But best you are going to accomplish is masking his natural temperament with modifications to his behaviors. Keep in mind that you'll always have to be one step ahead of him. He gets away with nothing! Is your entire family ready to live like this for the next 12+ years? Will your children always be afraid of him? Will you ever trust him?

It's tough to give up a dog you've become attached to, but for everyone's sake send him back. Select a new pup and consider having the trainer come with you to assess the temperament.

regards

 

[Jenngoofys]

Nadira36 - this is exactly what worked for my 2 dogs!! I think maybe the chewing everything might be due to teething. But just a guess cranky not cooperative .... Sounds like teething to me maybe her mouth hurts. Another thing my family has found and I'm not saying every dog but we find males to be less crabby!!

 

[Happyjen27]

OP, I'm very impressed by you. You are doing exactly what I would do. Seek out experts and then decide the best course of action. I'm also very impressed by your breeder, as evidenced by the fact that she is so willing to take him back. That shows love for her pups, not just someone into the cash.

Like Order 66 pointed out, this is not NORMAL puppy behavior. Teething is normal, but teething does not come with the GROWL. This puppy is showing agression, and is quite young to be doing so.

When faced with decisions like this, I never want to be the person who saw something bad coming, and didn't stop it. How would you feel if there was a bad bite to one of your children in these next 30 days? I would feel terrible, which is why I would return the pup now.

 

[North of Mouse]

Hoping for some advice, words of encouragement, good stories maybe?

Our 11 year old golden retriever died three years ago and we finally decided to get another golden. He is 4 months old now and in the last two weeks his personality has shifted terribly. I expected him to be great with kids like our last golden but he has started growling and snapping at my kids. They are 10, 5, and 3.

We have a dog trainer coming to our house and he is in puppy classes. So we're doing our job training him. The strange thing is, in puppy class the other dogs literally beat him up. He is a total wimp.

He was trained and now he started jumping on us again. Also he's taking everything he can get his mouth on. Two weeks ago he would have never touched our clothes, toys, paper towels, etc. When he gets something that isn't his or could be dangerous, the kids ask him to "drop it" and he growls. We know his "play growl" and this is a serious I'm warning you growl.

He snapped last week at my son when we were at the vet because he saw a cat and he is crazy intense about cats. Twice this week he has snapped at my 10 year old dd. She only petted him and told him he was a good boy and he snapped.

Today he actually bit her on the lip but thank goodness he didn't draw blood. I heard him growl and told her to back away and before she could he went for her. He refused to go to his crate after that so I tried to pick him up and he became as stiff as a board. Feeling intimidated for the first time, I put him down and decided to seek more advice.

Has anyone experienced this? It will get better right? I supervise the dog with the kids always BUT he is very unpredictable right now.

There is no way I would keep a puppy (dog) that is aggressive with my children. I have heard too many horror stories. Even if your last dog was a sweetie, does not mean the next of same breed will be. We had a boxer for my son when he was one. They "grew" up together and that dog was a teddy bear, but watched our son like she was his parent. Later we got another one, then another after that one. Both were terrible and we couldn't trust them, so we stopped with that breed.
In our state if a dog bites someone and you go to the Dr. they are required to report it and they will take your dog.
Hope things work out for all of you and it doesn't get worse.

 

[SueM in MN]

That's what I was taught as well. Generally speaking, tug of war with a large breed dog is very a bad idea.

Another idea, instead of having your kids hand feed the dog, make him wait until they have all had something to eat. The dog always eats last.

That was what we were told by both our breeder and the trainer.

Tug of war is a game for 2 dogs to play - never people playing with a dog because it is a dominance gem and also works against teaching the dog to give you anything.

I've been a vet tech and have shown, bred and trained dogs (large dominant dogs) for 20+ years. I don't say this lightly...........send this dog back. Your breeder sounds involved and caring, but is completely wrong for encouraging you to "work it out" with this dog.

This dog is too dominant for your family. I have owned and bred some hard tough dogs, SCH titled dogs and never would I tolerate this behavior from a 4 month old. Puppy just don't act like this, even dogs that grow up to be working dogs. Pups like this are not for the average owner and for his breed, just an unacceptable temperament. Your breeder should recognize this and between him and a pup that was fearful of you.......neuter both the parents! Great breeder or not, this was not a quality litter of Goldens.

What you are describing, the dog doesn't respect the humans in this family. He sees himself as alpha and is a social climber who is picking the weakest members of the "pack" out first to show his authority to. Beginning with your DD who is afraid. He's a bully and he knows how to correct her. He may even have some fear aggression, but combined with a civil instinct to bite this can create a very dangerous animal.

Working with a trainer is great and the right step. But best you are going to accomplish is masking his natural temperament with modifications to his behaviors. Keep in mind that you'll always have to be one step ahead of him. He gets away with nothing! Is your entire family ready to live like this for the next 12+ years? Will your children always be afraid of him? Will you ever trust him?

It's tough to give up a dog you've become attached to, but for everyone's sake send him back. Select a new pup and consider having the trainer come with you to assess the temperament.

regards

I agree.
The dog is targeting the young girl because he sees her as the most easy to control 'pack member'. Once he is above her in the pack, he will likely move on to target the next highest unil be gets to the top of the pack.
Living in fear of your dog is dangerous and no fun for anyone.

 

[Skywalker]

He growled twice this morning at my dd again. He is really targeting her.

NO OFFENCE but I just have to ask...are you sure there is no reason for this? No behind-the-scenes teasing or hurting of the dog by any of the kids?

 

[dzorn]

The dog should never be allowed alone with your children or without you right there to supervise. I would give the dog back. The safety of the chilren trumps having the dog.

Denise in MI