OT - Puppy snapping and growling at my kids (update on post #54)

Sounds to me like you are seeing a classic case of resource guarding: http://www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_ResourceGuarding.html

I'm glad that you have your trainer coming over to help you out. Another great resource is the website www.mysmartpuppy.com They have some great trainers over there on the forum. Perhaps if you post your problem there, you'll get some great help.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this, good luck.
 
And I play tug with his rope. I really hate that game because he growls the entire time he's tugging but the trainer said it doesn't cause agression. We are working with her to walk him. It's very hot here even at night and if we take him out on a walk he sits on the sidewalk and refuses to move. Our dog trainer said it's the strangest thing she's ever seen. Most dogs pull like crazy and our dog refuses to walk.


Just a couple points. The game of tug actually teaches a dog to NOT drop something that is in their mouth. So you're sending mixed messages when playing tug and then wanting the dog to drop something later on.

You mention that when the kids "ask" the dog to drop something it growls. The kids need to TELL the dog to drop whatever it is. Your trainer is right that the kids need to be above the dog in the hierarchy. One thing to help with this is to make sure the kids are always the first ones to eat, the first ones to walk through a door. The dog needs to FOLLOW them. So if they're outside, the dog must wait for the kids to go back into the house or to leave the house. The dog should wait until they are given permission by the kids to eat, etc.

Dogs who don't know where they stand in the pack get nervous. They will feel like even though they are not alpha dogs themselves that if no one is in charge, they will take over and be the alpha - which stresses them out and causes them to act out. But Order66 sounds correct in that this dog might genuinely be a dog who thinks they should be alpha, and that is not a dog that should be in a house with young children - unless the parents are VERY able to always be the alpha and always be "on." Which is really rough.

I would really suggest you read the Cesar's Way books by Cesar Milan. They are just great.
 
I feel for you with this puppy. We have a German Shepherd who was very difficult as a puppy. He is now 4 years old and the greatest dog in the world in my children's eyes. I completely agree that a tired dog is a good dog. Exercise made the difference between Cujo and Lassie with my dog. Tennis balls and the typical fetch is his favorite game to play. The kids also taught him to be obedient with tricks and treats. He was often placed in the submissive position (on his back) while the kids would pet him. He still hates doing this. We did not crate train just used a doggie door. We had to not allow any food from the table for about 6 months due to food aggresion. If he growled or nipped he was immediately thrown outside. He loved to knock down the kids outside which required hours of us leash training him. He once ate my DS's guitar except for the strings I guess he couldn't digest them. So the more dog bones the better. He still will plow you over if you light the fireplace. He steals the kids firework punks on the fourth and puts them out. We deeply love our shepherd esp. because he was such a pain in the rear in the beginning so give it your best shot before you throw in the towel.
 
Take the pup back to the breeder. I have a friend whose dog started this kind of behavior and as much as they tried the dog only got worse as he got older. Once he bit my friends DH hand...real bad they finally gave up and sent him back to the breeder.
The breeder ended up rehoming him to another young couple (gay..no kids and did not plan on having kids) and the dog has been the best pet for them. Sometimes your family and the dog just do not click for some reason...there is no shame to it. A great breeder will find this dog a new home...one where he will be happy. In the mean time work with the breeder to get another pup.

I see no reason to keep a dog that is being that agresstive to your children.
 

without knowing specifics....it's hard to say, but first off, your dog is a baby still. However, you may have a dog with a temperament that doesn't work for your house. You have 3 young kids,and some dogs just don't want to deal with that. Maybe you should go back to the breeder,and ask to give him back,with perhaps a dog that is better suited to your family instead coming home with you.( a good breeder should be able to place a dog suited to your home with you)
I have had dogs for MANY years,and I wouldn't have trusted all of them with kids.SOme, yes,but not all. I have one now that isn't trusted AT ALL with kids,or most adults. She started displaying her 'true' personality at about 4 months. She is who she is. We've trained her extensively,and she is still after 6 years, a LOT of extra work. But my kids are also older,and the dog is 11 pounds. We also have one now who is a charmer,and loves kids,and their chaos.
WHat I'm saying is, it's not necesarily your fault, dogs have personalities too,and many times, they do better in a different environment.
what others have said is true, this dog should NEVER be allowed alone with your kids. EVER. That is a lot of responsibilty,but he's trying to tell you,in his own way,that he is NOT comfortable with what is happening right now. Don't let it escalate.
 
Hi!! I've had much experience with puppies, and they do go through these kinds of phases. Golden retrievers are naturally restless, and always need to be around people, and have something to do. You mentioned your pup refuses to walk....I would work on that ASAP. Letting him/her roam around the backyard isn't the same kind of exercise as walking on a leash. He needs something to focus on, and drain his psychological energy, and running loose around the yard unfortunately isn't a way to do that. Also, I would never use the crate as a place for punishment...that will create a bad memory for your pup, and you might have problems with him using it in the future. My best advice is consistency. Any dog (especially a puppy) can be "molded" into a fabulous family member, you just need to work on it, and have everyone in the house be consistent with it as well. Another thing....don't yell at the dog. The volume panic from that creates a high-stress energy, and your dog mot likely will not cooperate, and may act out even more. I could go on and on. I agree with some PP's, and I would look at a second opinion in terms of trainers. It's ok to ask for references, and to "interview" your trainer before your make a commitment to them. Just remember to keep calm, assertive, be patient, and give your little guy a chance before assuming the worst. Good luck! :thumbsup2
 
Well, I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is we've been there - and saw a HUGE difference. You can change the behaviours.
The bad news is you're likely causing them. From what you've written I can see a few things happening that would cause the behaviour.

I highly recommend looking up Dr. Ian Dunbar - his website has tons of info for how to train your puppy using dog behaviour - not alpha stuff - that alpha dog stuff tends to cause more problems than it fixes.

In Jan we rescued a large bree d puppy - at 4 mos he was 50lbs (at 11 mos he's 90lbs) he was a sweet puppy, but he jumped, he growled, he lunged, he nipped, and he even bit me a couple time (not enough to draw blood, but he left bruises).

First, you need to train your puppy - not the kids, once he's more predictable, then get the kids to help. Second - do NOT play tug-of-war. Tug-of-war is a game that establishes dominance. Until your puppy will drop whatever you have as soon as you tell him, do not play this game. it DOES create aggression - at the very least it lets your dog believe he's boss.

Also, if you're not already crate training - do so. It'll really make a huge difference. If he's not behaving crate him. If you can't watch 100% crate him. Get a few kong toys - he gets his kibble from toys or hands only. Not a dish. This rewards him for playing with his toys - not the kids toys.

When giving treats by hand - close your fist - he does not get the treat until he stops touching your fist. At first he will lick, and paw at your hand - as soon as he takes his nose away from your hand open your hand - after he starts to get the idea, then keep your hand closed until he doesn't touch you for 10 seconds, then 15 then only if he doesn't try touching you at all. If he jumps, turn your back and cross your arms. Don't say anything, just turn around give him a treat when he puts all 4 feet on the floor.

To inhibit bite - grab his mouth and force your hand in - so you're circling his lower jaw with your hand - he will push your hand out - when he does reward him with a treat.

Teach him to sit, lie down, roll over. If he's sitting, he's not jumping, if he's lying down he's not jumping. If you don't know anything else to do - make him sit/lie down and reward him for that vs accidentally reward him for a bad behaviour.

Attention is reward - so if you yell at him - it's a reward.

If he's gotten a toy, chewwed a shoe - it was your fault for leaving it out - do NOT pull it away from him. Everytime you pull it away from him gives him information. It lets him know he must defend everything from you b/c you steal things from him. Teach him drop-it/off/leave-it some command that lets him know not to touch. Everytime he drops what he has, reward him - it rewards the drop - he will eventually only get his toys, then you can move on to games like tug-of-war where the game is enough reward to drop-it and get-it.

anyhow - this is basic information - I am not a dog behaviourist - but this is what's worked for us. I think you should (at the very least) ditch the trainer you have - but better yet find an actual dog behaviourist to help you out. but look at the credentials - you want someone who actually has the education to back up their claim to the title.

Everything this person said.

I agree that most of the behaviors you have described are learned behaviors. Your pup is 4 months old he is a baby and everything will go in his mouth, if he is chewing everything then he hasn't earned the right to be free in the house. I would confine him somewhere like the kitchen until he is a little older and you can trust him. His growling is probably playful at this point and although it seems scary he is just playing and from what you described the kids are his favorite "toys" The second his teeth touch skin all play should stop, leave the room for 30 seconds and then come back. This will teach bite inhibition and there are tons of info on the web so google it and educate yourself

There is no way I would let the kids feed him or give him treats. At 4 months he should be fed 3 times a day, put his food down, give him 20 minutes and put it away, If he doesn't eat he will soon learn that meal time is not play time and will eat. Also the kids should not touch him or his food while eating, who wants that harassment while trying to eat a meal.

As for exercise running around a yard, no matter how big, is not enough exercise for a high energy puppy. He needs to be walked daily for 20 to 30 minutes as he grows but you can also tire him out mentally. A training session where he spends 30 - 45 minutes thinking will work wonders, you can also buy some toys that will make him think buy a tug a jug or a kong wobbler and put his kibble from one of his meals in it. It will keep him busy and wear him out. When he is antsy and making you crazy you can also put a handful or two of kibble in a water bottle and put it on the floor and he will have to figure out how to get it out.From what little you have written about your trainer I wouldn't have him back. Find a behaviorist / trainer that teaches positive reinforcement. You were right to ask for help, you have a baby with bad habits but you need to search your area for the right trainer.
I would also google NILF it will make a huge difference in life with your pup.

I googled for you: http://www.pets.ca/dogs/articles/nothing-in-life-is-free-nilf/ Susan Garrett has a book called Ruff Love that would also offer some help.


Thanks again. We're working closely with our vet, the dog trainer and our breeder (who is a top-notch breeder in our area). We decided to give the dog another 30 days and see what we can do to correct the behavior before making any big decisions. Now, in that time if his behavior escalates we'll find him a new home without children.

Hoping today will be a better day. He growled twice yesterday but fortunately didn't snap at anyone. As far as exercise, he gets as much exercise as he will allow. We play until he is tired and he refuses to walk. He literally sits on the sidewalk refusing to move. This is another issue we're working on. He only walks when you say fine let's go home.

Wait him out. He's still a baby, so he may just need short walks, but don't let him decide when it is time to go home.

I have considered getting another opinion. My trainer is coming on Monday to our house to access the situation. We'll figure out what to do from there. I feel confident in her professional opinion at this point.

Also, he is crate trained. We've had several puppies in the past. We're definitely not young or new at this. In fact this time I would say we've finally got the rules right on what to do. I know the mistakes we've made in the past with puppies and we've worked really hard to not repeat. However, I'm still analyzing the situation to see if we need to change anything. We put away the ropes. Of course he is trying to get us to tug with his tennis ball now. Crazy boy.

That said, he is showing dominance over the kids. He knows not to mess with us. I have no fear of the dog. But I can't ask one of my children to show him who's boss when that could lead to them getting bitten. My 10 year old dd jumps when he snaps so it's probably reinforcing his behavior.

Don't ever let children try to show a dog they are "boss". That stuff is flat out wrong. Keep the kids totally out of the equasion for now. The dog should be getting rewards for ignoring the children at this point. Rewards for laying quietly at someone's feet. Rewards for walking on the leash. The kids can give him his food bowl, but for now it would be best if you held the dog's collar while a child puts the bowl in front of him to make sure he can't lunge at the child. Let go of the collar and say OK when he can eat.

Look up Pat Miller and patricia McConnells websites. they are great. also check www.apdt.com for trainers. But, if he keeps giving you a bad vibe around your kids, you have to give him back to the breeder. I'm glad you got him from a responsible breeder with a proper contact. That's how it is supposed to work! They breed a dog that can't be around kids, they have to deal with it. In case you can't tell from my username, I'm a dog person, too!
 
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Any dog (especially a puppy) can be "molded" into a fabulous family member, you just need to work on it, and have everyone in the house be consistent with it as well.

I am sorry to disagree with you. There are plenty of times when any dog (puppy or adult) are just not a good fit for a family.
If the puppy is biting family NOW at 4 months...how are they going to EVER trust this dog....Oh they can go ahead and do what I see happen so many times...lock the dog up whenever you have company....not take it out in public because they fear the dog *just may* go after someone. The kids get to have the joy of owning a difficult dog that can never be trusted...how fun!!
 
One more thing -- mouthing and true biting are two different things. Growling is very concerning, though. Goldens can be incredibly mouthy, but they shouldn't be growling or biting hard. I'd keep in very close contact with the breeder on this one. I am pretty worried that it isn't going to work out.
 
I am sorry to disagree with you. There are plenty of times when any dog (puppy or adult) are just not a good fit for a family.
If the puppy is biting family NOW at 4 months...how are they going to EVER trust this dog....Oh they can go ahead and do what I see happen so many times...lock the dog up whenever you have company....not take it out in public because they fear the dog *just may* go after someone. The kids get to have the joy of owning a difficult dog that can never be trusted...how fun!!

Agreed. I would never lock up a dog for bad behaviour, or when they do something wrong. I do still stand by my opinion that you can train your dog properly at an early age. I believe aggression is usually based on learned behaviour, or fear, or frustration, or pent up energy. Of course there are many schools of thought and practise out there, I would just go with what you're most comfortable with. If you're not comfortable with being patient and consistent with a puppy, then maybe you should re-home him and wait a few years until you're ready for that big a commitment.
 
OP-Please put your children's safety first and have the breeder find a new home for this dog. What if the dog bites one of your children in the face and leaves a scar? How will you feel, when this dog is obviously giving you many signs that it is not comfortable around your children? Why wait for the dog to bite (think you said it actually did bite but didn't break the skin), when you know this problem is not going to go away? Make the hard decision and find another home for this dog.
 
OP,
The sooner the dog goes back to the breeder, the sooner it can get placed into a setting to begin it's new life. The longer you wait, the more stressful it is on the dog, your children and you.
Your children (and you) are living in fear.
 
I believe aggression is usually based on learned behaviour, or fear, or frustration, or pent up energy.

...or....it could be genetics. I currently own a dog that is inherently aggressive,touchy,and overreactive to just about EVERYTHING. We have trained her in NILF and all positive reinforcement methods,she knows a LOT of tricks and behaviors that we taught to keep her mind occupied,rather than being aggressive. She goes for 2 mile walks daily,and is trained/treated multiple times weekly to reinforce.we DO put her in the bedroom when we have a lot of company. :thumbsup2She is the way she is. It wasn't learned,we didn't scare her. She grew from a little rescued pup,into this dog. (started showing signs around 4 months) We keep her away from situations that stress her,like lots of people in our home. (a couple at a time,we've desensitized her to) B/C if we don't she starts acting in an antisocial way,and no one is happy.
To OP, take it very seriously. Some dogs make growly noises,etc as'talking' but your kids are very young. Be careful what chances you take,some dogs don't fit well with kids. simple as that. I would NOT have tried to keep this difficult dog if I had little kids,and I had to worry about their safety.
 
Hi, OP here.

We decided to keep our puppy. He is doing great now. I think we had a combination of bad training advice, a really bad puppy class experience and a really strange teething problem. His teething was so bad he lost all of his teeth in less than a month. Some days he was losing 2 a day. He was also bleeding a lot from the mouth. So we stuck it out. We fired the trainer, started following advice from the breeder and made it through the teething.

Thanks for the concern. I wouldn't suggest to anyone to stick it out like we did. It's a tough personal decision.

No need to further post on this topic.
 
I'm glad that things are working out for you :cool1:! Might I make one more suggestion? Edit your original post with your update at the end of the post and also edit your subject with "Update Post #54". Otherwise, others will continue to give advise even though you have already resolved your problem.
 
Hi, OP here.

We decided to keep our puppy. He is doing great now. I think we had a combination of bad training advice, a really bad puppy class experience and a really strange teething problem. His teething was so bad he lost all of his teeth in less than a month. Some days he was losing 2 a day. He was also bleeding a lot from the mouth. So we stuck it out. We fired the trainer, started following advice from the breeder and made it through the teething.

Thanks for the concern. I wouldn't suggest to anyone to stick it out like we did. It's a tough personal decision.

No need to further post on this topic.

Awww, that is great news. I am glad things are working out. I think the dog I have now, lost all of her teeth in one day also, it seemed like one day she had all baby teeth, and then the next day all adult teeth. Anyway, I am happy for you and your familly.
 
Update Post #54


Hoping for some advice, words of encouragement, good stories maybe?

Our 11 year old golden retriever died three years ago and we finally decided to get another golden. He is 4 months old now and in the last two weeks his personality has shifted terribly. I expected him to be great with kids like our last golden but he has started growling and snapping at my kids. They are 10, 5, and 3.

We have a dog trainer coming to our house and he is in puppy classes. So we're doing our job training him. The strange thing is, in puppy class the other dogs literally beat him up. He is a total wimp.

He was trained and now he started jumping on us again. Also he's taking everything he can get his mouth on. Two weeks ago he would have never touched our clothes, toys, paper towels, etc. When he gets something that isn't his or could be dangerous, the kids ask him to "drop it" and he growls. We know his "play growl" and this is a serious I'm warning you growl.

He snapped last week at my son when we were at the vet because he saw a cat and he is crazy intense about cats. Twice this week he has snapped at my 10 year old dd. She only petted him and told him he was a good boy and he snapped.

Today he actually bit her on the lip but thank goodness he didn't draw blood. I heard him growl and told her to back away and before she could he went for her. He refused to go to his crate after that so I tried to pick him up and he became as stiff as a board. Feeling intimidated for the first time, I put him down and decided to seek more advice.

Has anyone experienced this? It will get better right? I supervise the dog with the kids always BUT he is very unpredictable right now.
I know this is an old post, and curious how this turned out for you? We are having the exact problem with a lab/hound mix puppy. Trying to decide if rehoming is best.
 
I know this is an old post, and curious how this turned out for you? We are having the exact problem with a lab/hound mix puppy. Trying to decide if rehoming is best.
How old is the puppy? Hounds can be way more stubborn than goldens. How are the kids?
 
He is 7 months. The kids don't bug him. Usually it's triggered by food, or if the child approaches him when he's resting.
 

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