Oprah goes too far again.

[auntpolly]

So are you admitting that was a shot or not?

I took to ignoring you because like so many others here, you like to pretend you play nice and label other posts as the bad ones. Today's shot was just one I didn't want to ignore.

I'm just fine with people who can admit they're dishing it out.

No, I said I'm not ashamed of anything I've said, and if I took a shot at you I would have been ashamed. You never hold back, so I didn't think I ever had to hold back with you. We disagree alot, sorry. I'm not disagreeing with you just to hear myself disagree.

I thought, based on the way you debated so agressively that you could take a little heat. I was wrong. I do apologize for having offended you. I don't like offending people. I didn't take you for the sensitive type, but now that I know you are, I won't bother you anymore.

 

[jgmklmhem]

Also wanted to add....why are the girls doing all this....it isn't normally to get the attention of the homely smart nice guy from calc class. They are doing it to get the attention of the Jock, the Fonze, the Preppy guy etc. So as much as these guys are being shallow and want this type of crap from the girl.....the girl is choosing to do this type of crap to get the "cool" guy thus being shallow themselves.

 

[cardaway]

That's too funny to see.

 

[vivilasvegas]

Also wanted to add....why are the girls doing all this....it isn't normally to get the attention of the homely smart nice guy from calc class. They are doing it to get the attention of the Jock, the Fonze, the Preppy guy etc. So as much as these guys are being shallow and want this type of crap from the girl.....the girl is choosing to do this type of crap to get the "cool" guy thus being shallow themselves.

and the homely smart nice guys are secretly in love with the hot girls!!

I know a lot of "nerdy" guys (love one, by the way ), but they aren't asking out the homely girls either, so don't play that game.

Girls dress and act a certain way to attract men because they think that's what men want. I don't understand how anyone can question that!

 

[beckmrk04]

Also wanted to add....why are the girls doing all this....it isn't normally to get the attention of the homely smart nice guy from calc class. They are doing it to get the attention of the Jock, the Fonze, the Preppy guy etc. So as much as these guys are being shallow and want this type of crap from the girl.....the girl is choosing to do this type of crap to get the "cool" guy thus being shallow themselves.

Absolutely.

Guys do the whole macho-show off thing. But girls aren't out getting them drunk then coercing them to do daredevil stunts and making money off of it. Guys are making that up all on their own. Heck, there is even a show dedicated to it- which is geared towards guys: Jack*ss.

The thing is, we need to catch guys and girls before this whole mess even starts! And let them know what to look for in a partner. Some of that comes with maturity.

And, I am proudly married to one of the smart guys/nerds!

 

[Buckalew11]

I find it very interesting that not one woman on here has commented on how boys do crap just to get the girls attention just in different ways (such as being the bad-boy or being the one who buys the most presents or the one who has the coolest car and also the one that is the better looking). Being the "homely smart nice guy" in high-school didn't exactly make me the top of the list in dating circles. Girls treated the guys pretty much the exact same way that guys were treating girls.

Your thoughts are valid and true. It reminds me of the saying, "Nice guys finish last."

In HS, my best friend and I had a guy say to us during freshman year, "There are girls you date and girls you marry. You two are the girls you marry."
At the time we were sorta hurt but realized it was a compliment to our character.
And this same friend and I talked about how the nicest guys in school were the ones we didn't notice and how most of them grew up to be very nice men, DHs and fathers!

 

[jgmklmhem]

and the homely smart nice guys are secretly in love with the hot girls!!

I know a lot of "nerdy" guys (love one, by the way ), but they aren't asking out the homely girls either, so don't play that game.

Girls dress and act a certain way to attract men because they think that's what men want. I don't understand how anyone can question that!

in love with probably not....lust maybe but that isn't really outside the norm for either sex.

the homely girls aren't doing their dressing up and acting to get the nerdy guys either nor are they asking them out (another issue altogether but why is it the guy has to do the asking)

I agree fully with you last statement but you could change girls and guys pretty much interchangably other than maybe the dressing part but both definately act in ways that are self defeating just to gain the attention of the opposite sex. I know Oprah's show was about girls so consequently this thread, but it goes on both sides of the XX/XY divide. My point is just to point out that it isn't as one sided as this thread or Oprah have presented it.

 

[Robinrs]

Only I think the same old ho-hum stuff is the fact that young women so easily buy into the whole dumb/look-at-me-I'm-a-porn-star tedium. As my Gram once said, men love it & young females--& some of us oldies--are man hungry. Nothing new there~
What is pretty depressing is seeing the hook, line & sinker consumerism, of image & product, of those lovely young ladies. It really makes me wonder if our society has degenerated to "Me, me, that's enough about me. What do you think about me?"? Are we seeing their whole picture though? Do they earn good grades? do they volunteer in the community?

I like Oprah, all except the celeb/movie star things. Some fluff can be a real stress reliever, but occassionally she will feature way too much of it for my tastes. I did enjoy hearing Pink's point of view, but so few of them have anything interesting to offer. I love the Debt Diet shows, I have great respect for her crusade to stop child abuse & her enthusiasm for charity & reading

Jean

I remember 20 years ago in a consortium for Public Service directors, led this time by the warden of a Women's prison. She said that 95% of all females incarcerated are there because of male influence.

I guess she was trying to cause that darned divide, huh?

Btw, no shock I'm sure, I LOVE OPRAH!!!

 

[jgmklmhem]

Absolutely.

Guys do the whole macho-show off thing. But girls aren't out getting them drunk then coercing them to do daredevil stunts and making money off of it. Guys are making that up all on their own. Heck, there is even a show dedicated to it- which is geared towards guys: Jack*ss.

The thing is, we need to catch guys and girls before this whole mess even starts! And let them know what to look for in a partner. Some of that comes with maturity.

And, I am proudly married to one of the smart guys/nerds!

True I am not going further in to the whole GGW stuff but on the high-school level I think it goes both ways pretty evenly. I think a great deal of it goes back to biology as well. It has been shown that men (in general) are way more visual beings than women and women are (in general) way more feelings based then men (shown with brain chemistry experiments etc). Which is why men want the hot blonde and women want the rich guy (feeling of security) or the bad boy (feeling of adventure) etc.

 

[vivilasvegas]

in love with probably not....lust maybe but that isn't really outside the norm for either sex.

the homely girls aren't doing their dressing up and acting to get the nerdy guys either nor are they asking them out (another issue altogether but why is it the guy has to do the asking)

I agree fully with you last statement but you could change girls and guys pretty much interchangably other than maybe the dressing part but both definately act in ways that are self defeating just to gain the attention of the opposite sex. I know Oprah's show was about girls so consequently this thread, but it goes on both sides of the XX/XY divide. My point is just to point out that it isn't as one sided as this thread or Oprah have presented it.

oh sure, I agree. It's always amazing to me when I hear someone saying that won't go out with so and so because they aren't good looking enough(and then complain they are single), when they themselves aren't that fantastic.

Oh, and I don't think I've seen an Oprah show in over 10 years!

 

[discernment]

That's too funny to see.

No, i thought it was rather hokie-ish myself.

That one didnt pan out for ya either.

BUZZZ!!! Wrong answer but thanks for playing.

 

[Disney Doll]

You can't seriously think the men have no blame in this.
Like I said before - bimbos get more male attention than the plainer looking brainy girls. Of course the plainer looking girls are going to see this and realize the only way they can compete is to dumb themselves down and flaunt themselves.

Sure women are to blame as well but they got the idea from somewhere

True. But where in this process have we lost our young girls, that they would even consider this option of "dumbing down and flaunting"?

I am sorry, but there's the issue of personal responsibility here. If you do stupid things when you're drunk, then don't drink. If you're smart but act stupid, that's your choice. If you decide to flaunt yourself, that's your choice.

Unless someone is holding a gun to your head and threatening to kill you if you don't play stupid, get drunk or flaunt your body, those are your choices. You are not a victim. You may be someone who made very poor choices. But you are not a victim. A woman who gets raped is a victim. A woman whose private parts get mutilated because it is a custom in her country is a victim.

Our problems as a gender will continue until women stop blaming men for our problems and take responsibility for the choices we make.

 

[Disney Doll]

and the homely smart nice guys are secretly in love with the hot girls!!

I know a lot of "nerdy" guys (love one, by the way ), but they aren't asking out the homely girls either, so don't play that game.

Bingo!

I was not considered one of the "hot" girls in high school.

I was athletic, fun, average-looking, smart and had parents who would not let me out of the house looking like a two-bit hooker, and I didn't have the nerve to leave my house dressed one way and change my clothes when I got to my destinaiton so I'd be wearing something "hipper".

And I didn't get asked out by any of the "nerdy but nice" guys, because they were busy pining away after the Jessica Simpson look-alikes with the long blonde hair and big ****s and presumably no brains, although Jessica is doing OK financially for someone who's allegedly stupid!

I did date in high school, but it was usually after a guy got to know me as a friend, and then decided I might not be too bad to date.

 

[mickeysgal]

Our problems as a gender will continue until women stop blaming men for our problems and take responsibility for the choices we make.

You got it! Well said!

(This goes for the guys too, by the way.)

 

[MouseWorshipin]

I understand that guys like to ogle girls (and more), especially drunken, slutty ones. Nothing new there. And there will always be girls with low self-esteem only to eager to fufill the role. Sad, but true.


But the porn (and soft-porn) industry used to have a taboo. Hidden in back rooms, sent in brown paper wrappers. It wasn't thrown on TV for kids to see. Pre-teens and teens stay up late enough to see this stuff on weekends. I worry about what it is doing to the girls' concept of sexuality. "Oh, that's what guys like...that's what I can do to get them to like me."

I have no problem with porn (don't watch it, but it's fine for others). But it needs to stay where it belongs. That's my HO, anyway.

And Oprah has gone waaaay off the deep end. It is like she's leading some kind of cult...but that's another story. 20 years ago, she was great. Now she's creepy.

 

[Crankyshank]

Society itself is sending a much stronger message about the need to look a certain way for girls than it is for boys. and in many cases it's so they can attract any guy - not just the popular ones because even the nerdy guys cast a blind eye in favor of the hot girls.

and men don't have to use their bodies to get ahead in the entertainment industry nearly as much as the women do. You don't see women out in droves buying magazines like FHM, Maxim, Playboy, Penthouse, etc... You don't see women out there spending money to get Guys Gone Wild.
Biological reasons aside, there's a lot more reinforcement out there for the sexy women prancing around wearing little more than their imagination than there is for guys to do the same.
I'm 31yrs old and I know I'd like to turn on the tv or go to the magazine stand and not be told in a thousand different ways that I'm inferior because I don't look a certain way.

Instead of turning around and claiming someone is exaggerating the problem or say "yeah but" how about something actually gets done about it?

 

[Teejay32]

True. But where in this process have we lost our young girls, that they would even consider this option of "dumbing down and flaunting"?

I think girls who dumb themselves down have self-esteem issues...and girls who sleep with boys in jr. high have self-esteem issues...it doesn't strike me as a problem for girls on spring break who flash for cameras. I don't want to confuse the two groups (really wish I'd seen the show now) because there's a difference between the conflicts that young girls face and a bunch of older ones..."going wild" I guess.

So on that note, young girls have a good - a really good - chance of being taken advantage or pressured into things by boys. They always did. Then there's pressure from their peers to look right, dress right, etc. Well, right now our society's perceived definition of attractive, successful, & fashionable is: expensively trashy. It is society's problem, not that of any one individual.

 

[auntpolly]

I talk about this book all the time -- sorry if someone already has -- Reviving Ophelia. It really should be required for everyone with a daughter. It talks about the subtle ways that girls are kind of growing up too early, becoming sexual too early. It's just so good, I really think it changed the way I raised DD.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...f=pd_bbs_1/102-1155079-0624956?_encoding=UTF8

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

I think the true tragedy of my generation of females (I am 20 years old) is that many feel that being themselves isn't good enough and it is better to dumb yourself down and dress like Paris Hilton to be liked. So many try to emulate the celebrities they see on T.V. and I don't think that men are to blame. I think society is to blame. This is what we have let become the norm. So girls see this and think that is how they are supposed to act, dress, etc. I really enjoyed what Pink was saying. About how if you are trying so hard to be someone you see on t.v. or in a magazine, you'll never reach your full potential and more importantly, you'll never figure out who YOU really are because you're too busy imitating someone else. I think that was the point of this episode. Dr. Robin did have some pretty harsh views as far as blaming all of this on men BUT I think the message of the show is that we need to teach young women that what you see on t.v. isn't reality. It is an image and a facade. And you shouldn't try so hard to act dumb or overly sexual to get attention because being SMART and feeling good about youself is the healthier way to go.

 

[auntpolly]

The book I was talking about says that girls who are 12, 13 still want to be creative, to play like little kids, to be adventurous, but if they do, they get labled tom boys and not "cool" , so they get pressured into conforming.