OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[kdonnel]

Were they? As I said before, there were people who knew, and did, better. T

But how many?

Until it reaches a tipping point, those that knew better were the social activists. We can't expect everyone to be a social activist.

In my opinion you can't hold people to having the "wrong" view until about 40% of the population holds the "right" view and there has been a steady trend to get to that 40%.

If we could go back in time to the 1930's I think you would be hard pressed to find that 40% of the population believed in racial equality and that those words used in the song were wrong.

To put things in perspective as to what was considered right and wrong both before and after the song was produced:
In 1906 the Bronx Zoo displayed Ota Benga in a cage with monkeys.
In the 1930s Germany displayed African family's in exhibits at their zoos.
In 1958 Belgium put in a Human Zoo at the Worlds Fair they hosted.

 

[DeniseJH]

You keep going back to history books. History is so much more. Every country in the world has things from their history--monuments, buildings, etc. Do you think the US is the only nation in the world with a dark past? Seeing the monuments, homes, churches etc. from the time of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and others brings the country's history alive unlike any book can possibly do. He isn't "celebrated" because he was a salve owner. He is "celebrated" because he is a founder of our country and wrote the Declaration of Independence. How do we not recognize the man who wrote the document our country is based on?

Both Dh and I have a great x? grandmother who was Native American--you really want to ask me that?

And of course History is so much more - but others keep saying that the history books are going to be wiped clean, and I bring them up because they are always going to be there. Here, and in other countries...I have mentioned museums here, and in other countries as well. While we're at it, history is so much more than statues as well. As far as what Jefferson is celebrated for - I don't see how you can you separate the two. They are the same person. No one wants to tear down any homes buildings or churches from that era, unless they were built after the fact as an homage. They simply are the history, they aren't icons put on a pedestal to be revered. There really is a big difference. Of course he can be recognized, but I'll say again, he shouldn't be venerated with a statue.

 

[DeniseJH]

But how many?

Until it reaches a tipping point, those that knew better were the social activists. We can't expect everyone to be a social activist.

In my opinion you can't hold people to having the "wrong" view until about 40% of the population holds the "right" view and there has been a steady trend to get to that 40%.

If we could go back in time to the 1930's I think you would be hard pressed to find that 40% of the population believed in racial equality and that those words used in the song were wrong.

To put things in perspective as to what was considered right and wrong both before and after the song was produced:
In 1906 the Bronx Zoo displayed Ota Benga in a cage with monkeys.
In the 1930s Germany displayed African family's in exhibits at their zoos.
In 1958 Belgium put in a Human Zoo at the Worlds Fair they hosted.

But it doesn't take a social activist to know right from wrong. And trying to play the percentages is silly - there's no way of knowing , and choosing 60% to be the point at which the wrong are truly wrong is arbitrary at a minimum.


And those examples you listed are truly horrible and there is no excuse for any of them - regardless of the year they occurred. And the mere fact that they occurred doesn't mean that they were right.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how many....."All men are created equal...", "Do unto others..." and all that. People are capable of knowing that treating another human being like an animal is wrong.

 

[kdonnel]

But it doesn't take a social activist to know right from wrong.

So using your logic we should hold people accountable for every "wrong" thought or belief they had no matter what the majority of society believed at the time or the level of scientific understanding.

Sounds like a horrific way to judge past societies.

I sure hope my time is not judged in a similar manner.

 

[DeniseJH]

So using your logic we should hold people accountable for every "wrong" thought or belief they had no matter what the majority of society believed at the time or the level of scientific understanding.

Sounds like a horrific way to judge past societies.

I sure hope my time is not judged in a similar manner.

We aren't talking about every wrong -we're talking about racism.

 

[Southernmiss]

I didn’t know about anything happening at our other state schools but at USM, they took down the state flag at the front of the university. No one even noticed until of course the news got wind of it and did a big story on it. So one sad little group of “protesters” spent weeks sitting out by the flagpole, holding signs and yelling something every once in awhile. I think they finally gave up. Honestly, I haven’t noticed if the flag is back or not or if they are still there. They just became part of the landscape.

I wish they would just go ahead and let us vote on the dang flag and be down with it. There have been some really nice alternatives presented. Some that will still honor the past while looking to the future.

My son was on the Student Government Association when the USM state flag came down. There were threats on campus and to the students (son gave me play by play as it happened that week) and there are still weekly Sunday afternoon "sit ins" in protest of the flag being removed. The flag is still down as it is at other universities in the state.

February this year in Oxford other rallies and "showing of behinds" took place. Classes cancelled on Friday and Saturday they moved to the town square.

 

[Kimberlyann11]

So using your logic we should hold people accountable for every "wrong" thought or belief they had no matter what the majority of society believed at the time or the level of scientific understanding.

Sounds like a horrific way to judge past societies.

I sure hope my time is not judged in a similar manner.

We will certainly be judged and for good reason.

 

[mrsstats]

Says who? I voted for both of them because I love their personalities. But they weren't the best singers so I think America got it right. I vote with my heart.

I voted for them too as I loved their singing and personality. It was a big thing on the web the day after. I don't think American Idol is racist. America is voting for who they like or find cute. Frankly, IMHO, it is a popularity contest at this point.

 

[Floridaman999]

We aren't talking about every wrong -we're talking about racism.

What will we all be upset about next week and demand change?

 

[DeniseJH]

What will we all be upset about next week and demand change?

I don't know, I don't make the schedule.

 

[Floridaman999]

I don't know, I don't make the schedule.

I hope to meet the scheduler one day.

 

[LSUmiss]

Are we banning Thomas Jefferson and anything associated with him too? So who gets to rewrite the Declaration of Independence? I'm not in favor of banning anything because I do believe in slippery slopes. Hopefully we never become THAT zealous.

Banning things & taking down statues who pay homage to ppl some no longer identify with are 2 different things.

 

[LSUmiss]

But how many?

Until it reaches a tipping point, those that knew better were the social activists. We can't expect everyone to be a social activist.

In my opinion you can't hold people to having the "wrong" view until about 40% of the population holds the "right" view and there has been a steady trend to get to that 40%.

If we could go back in time to the 1930's I think you would be hard pressed to find that 40% of the population believed in racial equality and that those words used in the song were wrong.

To put things in perspective as to what was considered right and wrong both before and after the song was produced:
In 1906 the Bronx Zoo displayed Ota Benga in a cage with monkeys.
In the 1930s Germany displayed African family's in exhibits at their zoos.
In 1958 Belgium put in a Human Zoo at the Worlds Fair they hosted.

I can agree with your first statement & that is my point about taking down certain statues. In this area, a majority of ppl wanted them down. So they’re down & that’s that. It’s not controversial or ppl being too sensitive. The ppl is this area decided that is not someone they wanted to pay homage to. Could that not pay the case with other statues in other areas? It’s about who the majority of ppl want to honor now.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I can agree with your first statement & that is my point about taking down certain statues. In this area, a majority of ppl wanted them down. So they’re down & that’s that. It’s not controversial or ppl being too sensitive. The ppl is this area decided that is not someone they wanted to pay homage to. Could that not pay the case with other statues in other areas? It’s about who the majority of ppl want to honor now.

Who would you consider the majority though and how would you calculate that?

 

[luvsJack]

My son was on the Student Government Association when the USM state flag came down. There were threats on campus and to the students (son gave me play by play as it happened that week) and there are still weekly Sunday afternoon "sit ins" in protest of the flag being removed. The flag is still down as it is at other universities in the state.

February this year in Oxford other rallies and "showing of behinds" took place. Classes cancelled on Friday and Saturday they moved to the town square.

Didn't know anything about any threats. Just those sad few people standing out beside Hardy St. I am surprised we weren't informed of any threats that went on. Our police force is usually on top of things like that since its easy for it to bleed over from one campus to another. They took our's down for awhile but I thought they put it back up, I will have to check.

I was told by an employee from USM that there were several on campus that were upset about it because no one was asked their opinion about removing it or if the majority of students/faculty/staff thought it should be removed. She didn't say if the upset people had an issue with the flag or wanted it there, just that they wanted to be asked.

 

[luvsJack]

And of course History is so much more - but others keep saying that the history books are going to be wiped clean, and I bring them up because they are always going to be there. Here, and in other countries...I have mentioned museums here, and in other countries as well. While we're at it, history is so much more than statues as well. As far as what Jefferson is celebrated for - I don't see how you can you separate the two. They are the same person. No one wants to tear down any homes buildings or churches from that era, unless they were built after the fact as an homage. They simply are the history, they aren't icons put on a pedestal to be revered. There really is a big difference. Of course he can be recognized, but I'll say again, he shouldn't be venerated with a statue.

I am not sure who is putting Thomas Jefferson on a pedestal. But honestly, I think we should be leave the memorial of this man right where it is and just be honest about who he was. he did great things and he did horrible things. In guide books, history books, whatever. He is important to the history of this country but he was also a product of his time that thought of African Americans as less than human. Thank God, we have learned better than that now.

Our ancestors were racist. They were racist against the Native Americans, the African Americans, Irish (well not a race but you get what I mean), Germans, Japanese, etc. etc. etc. Some have moved well beyond that and a few haven't. Let's just be honest about it. No reason to lie.


He doesn't just have a statue, he has a whole building! But there is a reason for that. So does Abraham Lincoln (who you do know was racist also, just read some of the things HE said!). George Washington's home is visited by a great many people every year (and I guess so is Thomas Jefferson's), if the Washington memorial was taken down, how long until his home is too?

 

[kdonnel]

We aren't talking about every wrong -we're talking about racism.

So your saying racism should hold people accountable to a different standard then any other wrong?

Going back to my first post in this thread:

A moral relativist would say that our values today can't be compared with the values from another era. What was right for them was right for them. What is right for us is right for us.

The philosopher Miranda Fricker is not a moral relativist, but she thinks the test for blameworthiness is whether the person could have known any different. "The proper standards by which to judge people are the best standards that were available to them at the time".

It's unfair to blame people for failing to be moral pioneers, she says. "The attitude of blame presupposes that the person was in a position to have done better."

I don't think in the 1930's that is was common to believe in racial equality. To judge her based on the current belief of racial equality is wrong.

 

[DeniseJH]

So your saying racism should hold people accountable to a different standard then any other wrong?

Going back to my first post in this thread:


I don't think in the 1930's that is was common to believe in racial equality. To judge her based on the current belief of racial equality is wrong.

To the first part: yes, I do believe racism is worse than many other wrongs - you don't? What's more basic than how you treat your fellow man?


To the second part: I understand that you don't think that it was common to think about racial equality in the 30's. What I think is that people knew right from wrong; that they knew it wasn't right to treat other human beings so horribly.


I think we're all repeating ourselves now.

 

[luvsJack]

To the first part: yes, I do believe racism is worse than many other wrongs - you don't?


To the second part: I understand that you don't think that it was common to think about racial equality in the 30's. What I think is that people knew right from wrong; that they knew it wasn't right to treat other human beings so horribly.


I think we're all repeating ourselves now.

Any "ism" that leads someone to treat another human being badly because of something they have no control over is wrong and one is just as bad as the other. Racism isn't the only one.

 

[DeniseJH]

Any "ism" that leads someone to treat another human being badly because of something they have no control over is wrong and one is just as bad as the other. Racism isn't the only one.

Well, there are a lot of wrongs that aren't "isms".

You'll note I said "many" other wrongs.