OK, I'll say it... we are too sensitive

[DeniseJH]

The whole thread was started about a song. A song is words.



I never mentioned black-face either.

But since you edited your post after I initially quoted it, I'll try again:



I wasn't aware that any of us knew who Kate Smith sat with or ate with? All I said (way, way upthread) was that we don't know enough about her to assume she was hateful. She sang something polite people wouldn't listen to today. Your guess is that it was because she was a horrible person, my guess is that it was because she didn't know any better. But all we can do is guess, and I don't think either of our guesses are realistically going to change. (Though if she rises from the dead, visits my house, and refuses to sit next to my son's best friend, I do promise I'll show her the door.)

And you still haven't answered my question. - I agree that "treating people like animals" (or more accurately, treating people like I wouldn't even treat animals) is horrible! What I'm trying to understand better are your feelings about not "qualifying" things - how using an outdated word, refusing to sit with someone, and burning a cross are the same?

To me, they are "qualified" (in order) as uninformed, prejudiced & mean, and evil & dangerous. They're all something to be stopped, but they're not all on the same "level" - and I think treating them as such leads to more confusion than progress.

A song is words and words are letters. Therefore I am insulted by letters. The point was that the theme of the song is racist. It is not simply "name calling", as is the example you gave.

I'm not talking about who Kate Smith sat or ate with, I'm talking about the Jim Crow laws of the time.

You reposted a thread that included a line stating that black face was not considered racist at the time - that is to what I was referring.


I don't know what "edit" to which you are referring. I did edit out the word "be" in the last line of post #593 because I realized what I was inferring would be troublesome. That was my only edit.

 

[DeniseJH]

The whole thread was started about a song. A song is words.



I never mentioned black-face either.

But since you edited your post after I initially quoted it, I'll try again:



I wasn't aware that any of us knew who Kate Smith sat with or ate with? All I said (way, way upthread) was that we don't know enough about her to assume she was hateful. She sang something polite people wouldn't listen to today. Your guess is that it was because she was a horrible person, my guess is that it was because she didn't know any better. But all we can do is guess, and I don't think either of our guesses are realistically going to change. (Though if she rises from the dead, visits my house, and refuses to sit next to my son's best friend, I do promise I'll show her the door.)

And you still haven't answered my question. - I agree that "treating people like animals" (or more accurately, treating people like I wouldn't even treat animals) is horrible! What I'm trying to understand better are your feelings about not "qualifying" things - how using an outdated word, refusing to sit with someone, and burning a cross are the same?

To me, they are "qualified" (in order) as uninformed, prejudiced & mean, and evil & dangerous. They're all something to be stopped, but they're not all on the same "level" - and I think treating them as such leads to more confusion than progress.

The reason I won't qualify them is because there is no point. If the issue is "the time" multiple types of racism occurred at that time. Of course they are not the same, but it's not as if only 1 type of racism occurred at that time. And the discussion pertains to that time, and excusing people for their racism.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

The whole thread was started about a song. A song is words.



I never mentioned black-face either.

But since you edited your post after I initially quoted it, I'll try again:



I wasn't aware that any of us knew who Kate Smith sat with or ate with? All I said (way, way upthread) was that we don't know enough about her to assume she was hateful. She sang something polite people wouldn't listen to today. Your guess is that it was because she was a horrible person, my guess is that it was because she didn't know any better. But all we can do is guess, and I don't think either of our guesses are realistically going to change. (Though if she rises from the dead, visits my house, and refuses to sit next to my son's best friend, I do promise I'll show her the door.)

And you still haven't answered my question. - I agree that "treating people like animals" (or more accurately, treating people like I wouldn't even treat animals) is horrible! What I'm trying to understand better are your feelings about not "qualifying" things - how using an outdated word, refusing to sit with someone, and burning a cross are the same?

To me, they are "qualified" (in order) as uninformed, prejudiced & mean, and evil & dangerous. They're all something to be stopped, but they're not all on the same "level" - and I think treating them as such leads to more confusion than progress.

Kate Smith welcomed Josephine Baker, a black singer and activist of her time, onto her program at a time when many in the industry would not, and did not, welcome black people. Baker generally felt so unwelcome, she moved to France! I'd say that says something about Kate! Perhaps she had remorse about her earlier actions and wanted to try to make up for it. We don't know, but it is a possibliity.

As for the rest and this ongoing back and forth:

 

[Floridaman999]

I asked the dead horse and he convinced me to change my mind. See? It works!!!

 

[luvsJack]

You and I disagree - we've been back and forth on this. I've explained my opinions many, many times (some would say to the detriment of some poor horse). I get what you all are saying, I get it...and I disagree.


The black-face comment is in response to PollyannaMom's post, reposting NotUrsala's post.

You say you aren’t talking about words in a previous post. This whole thread is about songs which are in fact words.

People are stating facts not just opinions. Do you disagree with those facts?

 

[PollyannaMom]

I don't know what "edit" to which you are referring. I did edit out the word "be" in the last line of post #593 because I realized what I was inferring would be troublesome. That was my only edit.

When I first replied, I could only see your first sentence. When I went back later, there was more to the post. Maybe it was just a glitch?

The reason I won't qualify them is because there is no point. If the issue is "the time" multiple types of racism occurred at that time. Of course they are not the same, but it's not as if only 1 type of racism occurred at that time. And the discussion pertains to that time, and excusing people for their racism.

Thank you.

 

[DeniseJH]

You say you aren’t talking about words in a previous post. This whole thread is about songs which are in fact words.

People are stating facts not just opinions. Do you disagree with those facts?

I just replied to that exact point above to PollyanaMom.

To what facts are you referring?

 

[luvsJack]

For years upon years only one side had to listen. And they got the message all too well. And when monuments didn't do the trick, violent measures did. Their feelings weren't taken into account. That message was, "We're still in charge here." Well times have changed. Those violent measures, though they still do happen, aren't even remotely as widespread as they were and are punished instead of brushed aside these days. And in many cities where these monuments went up well the other side is in charge now. And after years upon years of listening all too well, they aren't forced to listen any more. They want them down and I cannot say as I blame them one bit.

So we all continue to pay for the sins of the past? I understand exactly what you are saying. But, why just do the same things in reverse? That just makes for more divide.

Maybe with some actual conversation, it can be understood that they want the statue down but are not bothered by the antebellum homes or some other memorial. or whatever. Misunderstanding breeds fear and only conversation will correct that.

 

[luvsJack]

I just replied to that exact point above to PollyanaMom.

To what facts are you referring?

The facts of the 30’s being a different time and different people. Of things that are known to offensive now, weren’t always. There are plenty of facts related in this thread and you keep dismissing them as defending racism.

 

[DeniseJH]

The facts of the 30’s being a different time and different people. Of things that are known to offensive now, weren’t always. There are plenty of facts related in this thread and you keep dismissing them as defending racism.

I've said it at least a dozen times: I know that people were different then, you can't tell me that they didn't know right from wrong. "Things" that are known to be "offensive" now "weren't always". Those are very general terms. "Times were different then." Yes, that is a fact, but it has no specific meaning.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

So we all continue to pay for the sins of the past? I understand exactly what you are saying. But, why just do the same things in reverse? That just makes for more divide.

Maybe with some actual conversation, it can be understood that they want the statue down but are not bothered by the antebellum homes or some other memorial. or whatever. Misunderstanding breeds fear and only conversation will correct that.

The difference is one side paid for years with deaths and whippings and second class citizenship. The other side is paying by not having a statue of a white supremacist in the city park they don't visit any more. The two don't remotely equate. And to claim it's the same thing in reverse is preposterous.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I've said it at least a dozen times: I know that people were different then, you can't tell me that they didn't know right from wrong. "Things" that are known to be "offensive" now "weren't always". Those are very general terms. "Times were different then." Yes, that is a fact, but it has no specific meaning.

Given that there were people in the 30s that didn't sing racist songs, the idea that people were mere drones following their times is an errant one.

 

[Magical2017]

I think what often happens is that those who are used to being in the majority are now having behaviors pointed out as racist or insensitive. This is happening in a more consistent manner than in the past. They do not like this, and are very sensitive about it. In turn, they imply that it is others who are too sensitive or too "pc."

 

[DeniseJH]

Given that there were people in the 30s that didn't sing racist songs, the idea that people were mere drones following their times is an errant one.

Exactly.

 

[luvsJack]

The difference is one side paid for years with deaths and whippings and second class citizenship. The other side is paying by not having a statue of a white supremacist in the city park they don't visit any more. The two don't remotely equate. And to claim it's the same thing in reverse is preposterous.

Not listening in reverse. You responded to a post I made about talking and listening not what anyone went through. I never compared what anyone went through to taking down a statue. I am simply saying that if everyone would stop arguing and listen to each other, a lot could possibly be resolved.

The people who want things removed have good reason. Many people that talk about history and heritage are not referring to slavery or racism. Perhaps a civil conversation could bring understanding to that.

 

[luvsJack]

Given that there were people in the 30s that didn't sing racist songs, the idea that people were mere drones following their times is an errant one.

So if there are people now that don’t sing patriotic songs, are they less American. There are a lot of people that don’t sing a lot of different songs. Doesn’t mean anything. I would venture to guess that some of those that didn’t sing racist songs were actually much more racist than Kate Smith who the more you learn about her makes a person question whether she was or not.

 

[luvsJack]

I think what often happens is that those who are used to being in the majority are now having behaviors pointed out as racist or insensitive. This is happening in a more consistent manner than in the past. They do not like this, and are very sensitive about it. In turn, they imply that it is others who are too sensitive or too "pc."

So you think some of us are still singing these songs, who most have never heard before now, from 70 years ago and we don’t like being called out on it?

Or that we are wearing black face? Or using old terms to describe someone?

 

[kaytieeldr]

Do you not understand the concept that these things aren't done anymore? I've got no problem putting Kate Smith's rendition in the same category.

Kate Smith's rendition of what in what category? God Bless America in the category of displaying humans of any ethnicity in zoo cages? It's genuinely not clear.

 

[DeniseJH]

So if there are people now that don’t sing patriotic songs, are they less American. There are a lot of people that don’t sing a lot of different songs. Doesn’t mean anything. I would venture to guess that some of those that didn’t sing racist songs were actually much more racist than Kate Smith who the more you learn about her makes a person question whether she was or not.

I think she/he was using singing racist songs as an example, not the entirety of what would define/exclude a person from being racist. Especially since this thread is about songs. I could be wrong, of course.


And you can't equate patriotism to racism.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

Kate Smith's rendition of what in what category? God Bless America in the category of displaying humans of any ethnicity in zoo cages? It's genuinely not clear.

We don't display humans in a cage and we don't celebrate people who sang racist songs....at least I don't celebrate people who sang racists songs. And I'm not saying Kate Smith version of GBA should be burned. But I think it's a good idea to find another version.