Official Dopey 2017 Thread

[Keels]

While true a lot of races still offer an insurance policy, deferral, or transfer. I'm also positive that most races don't cost nearly as much as Disney races do which makes just throwing that money away harder.

I really think the big problem people are paying attention to is paying more for less.

RnR races are cheaper depending on when you register, but NYC and Chicago have both cost me almost exactly (like, within $5) what Disney charges for races of the same distance. 2017 Napa-to-Sonoma is $15 cheaper than a Disney Half Marathon. But all of these races are still $160-$190 + fees, so they're not THAT much cheaper than a Disney race. None of these offer true insurance policy, deferral or transfer.

Even my local marathon weekend charges $145 for the half/full/ultra, and in 2017 they've done away with refunds and deferrals for 2017. You can transfer the bib to someone else, but the spots are limited and it has to be done well in advance of race weekend. So, yeah, that's $60 cheaper than Disney. But in 2015, they canceled EVERY race except the half marathon and provided no refunds - and that happens every couple of years here, so at least at Disney you're almost guaranteed decent weather to run.

I do think price point has more to do with it than "more for less", and if it's a "more for less" issue it's likely that long-time participants remember more discounts for runners rather than a lack (if there is) of on-course entertainment.

And the TA selling rooms thing ... well, you've effectively eliminated anyone local or that owns DVC from going through a TA. For Orlando races, unless I get in on registration day, I'm not doing the race. I'm not going to pay for a hotel room I don't need because I already have a house down the street, and I'm certainly not paying for park tickets when I already have a pricey AP to use. So, right there, just from my race weekend spending habits, RD has lost between $300-600 (depending on the weekend) in registration fees, ~$150 in merch and another ~$300 in peripheral registrations I purchase (ChEAR, Race Retreat, etc.). I'm obviously not the only one that feels this way either.

But I'm not going to complain about smaller race fields and hopefully more people that take the weekends seriously (I'm looking at you, Princess).

 

[rteetz]

RnR races are cheaper depending on when you register, but NYC and Chicago have both cost me almost exactly (like, within $5) what Disney charges for races of the same distance. 2017 Napa-to-Sonoma is $15 cheaper than a Disney Half Marathon. But all of these races are still $160-$190 + fees, so they're not THAT much cheaper than a Disney race. None of these offer true insurance policy, deferral or transfer.

Even my local marathon weekend charges $145 for the half/full/ultra, and in 2017 they've done away with refunds and deferrals for 2017. You can transfer the bib to someone else, but the spots are limited and it has to be done well in advance of race weekend. So, yeah, that's $60 cheaper than Disney. But in 2015, they canceled EVERY race except the half marathon and provided no refunds - and that happens every couple of years here, so at least at Disney you're almost guaranteed decent weather to run.

I do think price point has more to do with it than "more for less", and if it's a "more for less" issue it's likely that long-time participants remember more discounts for runners rather than a lack (if there is) of on-course entertainment.

And the TA selling rooms thing ... well, you've effectively eliminated anyone local or that owns DVC from going through a TA. For Orlando races, unless I get in on registration day, I'm not doing the race. I'm not going to pay for a hotel room I don't need because I already have a house down the street, and I'm certainly not paying for park tickets when I already have a pricey AP to use. So, right there, just from my race weekend spending habits, RD has lost between $300-600 (depending on the weekend) in registration fees, ~$150 in merch and another ~$300 in peripheral registrations I purchase (ChEAR, Race Retreat, etc.). I'm obviously not the only one that feels this way either.

But I'm not going to complain about smaller race fields and hopefully more people that take the weekends seriously (I'm looking at you, Princess).

Again I understand where you are coming from but I don't think you are the target for TAs. I think the target would be people who want a whole vacation package plus race registration.

Sure big time races like NYC and Chicago are expensive but they are more one and done than I would think Disney is. I mean I don't think I would run NYC or Chicago more than once but I'll run Disney more than once because I make a vacation out of it. I went to Disney before races and and I'll go to Disney after races but now I can put them together.

Here is Wisconsin I don't think any of the major races cost close to what Disney charges but I can't say I've looked very closely.

Everything coming together is really starting to make people take a second look. This was really brought to my attention when the Mickey Miles podcast did a two part episode on the whole deferral thing and more. All four people they had on the podcast are runDisney veterans. All four are starting to second guess doing runDisney races. Brian Marx who was on the show had set a goal to run every single Disney race but decided against that due to on going things and is now running a half in all 50 states. I think everything is piling together and really starting to make people think.

 

[Chasing Dopey]

A good friend recently retired from DL after several decades. She's quite worried that Disney is going to quickly lose its edge...

Disney has been separating the entities, so even though they have several billion dollar movies this year, the parks won't get a dime other than merchandising. (Remember, the guy running the parks came from merch. It explains a lot.) Because of the compartmentalizing, I imagine runDisney now has to foot the bill for all its entertainment. Now, the people running the big show are all very smart, and I wouldn't bet against them. Revenues have gone up this year, and attendance has fallen. It's a business and they have to pay the bills, but there is growing concern that the experience will suffer, much as it did when they tried to update Tomorrowland with too small a budget. (Don't get me started on Epcot.)

So, runDisney is caught up in all this. There are financial considerations that are probably shrinking the on course entertainment, even as they lose on a lot of potential revenue through terrible merchandise management (or philosophy). One thing Disney does not do, other than through its endless questionnaires, is anything resembling 'mystery shoppers'. They self-police entirely. Wouldn't it be great if runDisney thought outside the box and brought in some of their customers to report on their experience, openly and face to face?

 

[rteetz]

A good friend recently retired from DL after several decades. She's quite worried that Disney is going to quickly lose its edge...

Disney has been separating the entities, so even though they have several billion dollar movies this year, the parks won't get a dime other than merchandising. (Remember, the guy running the parks came from merch. It explains a lot.) Because of the compartmentalizing, I imagine runDisney now has to foot the bill for all its entertainment. Now, the people running the big show are all very smart, and I wouldn't bet against them. Revenues have gone up this year, and attendance has fallen. It's a business and they have to pay the bills, but there is growing concern that the experience will suffer, much as it did when they tried to update Tomorrowland with too small a budget. (Don't get me started on Epcot.)

So, runDisney is caught up in all this. There are financial considerations that are probably shrinking the on course entertainment, even as they lose on a lot of potential revenue through terrible merchandise management (or philosophy). One thing Disney does not do, other than through its endless questionnaires, is anything resembling 'mystery shoppers'. They self-police entirely. Wouldn't it be great if runDisney thought outside the box and brought in some of their customers to report on their experience, openly and face to face?

I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Parks are going in a completely different path. Guardians in tower or terror? That's purely because of intellectual property and to sell merchandise. Just check the rumors and news board where I spend most of my time and you'll see the craziness that is happening at the parks.

 

[Keels]

A good friend recently retired from DL after several decades. She's quite worried that Disney is going to quickly lose its edge...

Disney has been separating the entities, so even though they have several billion dollar movies this year, the parks won't get a dime other than merchandising. (Remember, the guy running the parks came from merch. It explains a lot.) Because of the compartmentalizing, I imagine runDisney now has to foot the bill for all its entertainment. Now, the people running the big show are all very smart, and I wouldn't bet against them. Revenues have gone up this year, and attendance has fallen. It's a business and they have to pay the bills, but there is growing concern that the experience will suffer, much as it did when they tried to update Tomorrowland with too small a budget. (Don't get me started on Epcot.)

So, runDisney is caught up in all this. There are financial considerations that are probably shrinking the on course entertainment, even as they lose on a lot of potential revenue through terrible merchandise management (or philosophy). One thing Disney does not do, other than through its endless questionnaires, is anything resembling 'mystery shoppers'. They self-police entirely. Wouldn't it be great if runDisney thought outside the box and brought in some of their customers to report on their experience, openly and face to face?

That would be great, but I think you underestimate the staffing that RunDisney has in general. Registration is completely outsourced to Active.com (TRUST ME ON THIS - I've had so many issues between Princess/Tink/DLH that I'm very familiar with how everything works), race weekend logistics are completely handled by TrackShack/Spectrum Sports, customer service is handled by central customer service at Disney. There is a marketing person who is over a fleet of interns, and is also responsible for overseeing Creatives for race weekends, but everything is done by the creative/graphics side of overall Disney marketing to make sure things conform to style. And so on and so forth.

The new, snazzy all-digital event guides? They're put together by Rodale - publisher of Runner's World and other endurance publication. I'm sure Rodale is footing the bill to edit (ha! Don't get me started on that ...) and design the digital guides, in trade for having pages of Runner's World sponsored content in the guides, along with branding at events. It's one of the first things you learn in event management - when you can't fit it in the budget, find a sponsor that will pay for it.

It wouldn't surprise me if RunDisney had to pay an hourly rental rate for property (hence moving W&D from night to morning - it reduced the overall cost for keeping Epcot open to JUST runners and family/friends with full staffing until 4 a.m.), as well as hourly for M&G, custodial, security and general staffing for the races. Then there's the cost for the permits to shut down streets, which is the only way to get Orange County Sheriff's Department out and the cost that is associated with that (police don't just show up for free), the staffing for Reedy Creek emergency entities - and that includes security patrolling the courses overnight - rental of A/C equipment, scaffolding, bleachers, tents, and items associated with all of that. Printing of signage, and the people who work overnight to swap those items out. Cost associated with generators and lighting. Pyrotechnics. I could keep going and going and going. RunDisney aims to put on a spectacle of a race weekend, and with that comes associated costs.

I'm about to hit my one-year anniversary of RunDisney races, and while I've yet to see a quality drop-off, I do see significant changes from race weekend to race weekend. I LOVE that the 5K medals are metal now. I think the event guide looks slick and is cool, and I can probably guesstimate how much they're saving by not printing all those hard-copy glossy guides that ultimately land in the trash.

Also, another upgrade they haven't mentioned is Runner Tracking (and I assume overall timing). For Disneyland, they've made the move to Real-Time Runner Tracking (RTRT.me) - and they. are. awesome. I've followed friends at St. Jude and La Jolla on the app, and it's great - you can get updates at anytime from a runner via the app, and actually follow them on the course map. So cool.

I think the branding and merch keeps getting better - especially the free race shirts. Like, I have NO interest in Tinker Bell or any of the fairies, but man ... the Tink stuff was really chic with great colors and designs.

Look. I've been as hard on RunDisney as the next person - and even the hardest at points. But now that I've spent a summer working with a race director and seeing the work (and costs!) it takes to pull off a 500-person race, I'm not going to complain on what they do. So far, I've found the races to be worth my $$. When they don't, I'll stop shelling out for them (or my hips give out, one of the other ...). And I do prefer Disneyland over WDW at this point, because a person can only run Cone Alley so many times ...

But I don't think RunDisney is making the $$ hand-over-fist the way it may appear they are. If I had to guess, the bulk of their profit comes from the Expo (both merch and vendor fees) and then ancillary registrations (ChEAR Squad and Race Retreat). And the merch bit, I think they've got a number they need to meet and they've decided that product scarcity that's almost guaranteed to meet that dollar figure is better than having to drastically discount too much merchandise and essentially get rid of it for cost. It sucks for us as participants, and I do think the logical thing would be to restrict Official Merchandise sales on the first day to only runners - but who knows, if they were to do that they might in turn do away with Disney Visa/AP/DVC discounts on merchandise, and that would suck too.

 

[taffy]

I think you hit the nail right on the head.

Parks are going in a completely different path. Guardians in tower or terror? That's purely because of intellectual property and to sell merchandise. Just check the rumors and news board where I spend most of my time and you'll see the craziness that is happening at the parks.

This is the problem. Everyone complains that they are not updating areas of the parks and the moment they do everyone complains. The fact is T of T is getting outdated theme wise and by updating to Guardians they are trying to win over a new generation of Disney fans who will one day frequent this site who will complain when the lifecycle of there beloved Guardian ride is closed for the next big thing.

I wonder how many complained years ago when they introduced the star tours ride as a way of selling merchandise.

The fact is they are moving with the times in the hope they can continue to win over the next generation of Disney fanatic We are all starting to get a bit old and they are looking to the future

 

[BuckeyeBama]

So far, the only thing that rD has done that would limit my future participation is eliminate defferals without an insurance option, and that would only keep me from signing up for challenges. I don't ever see myself running in DL because the course in not on Disney property, so I really don't care what they do out there. The biggest draw that rD races have for me and my family - WDW for our vacation while in town and characters along the courses for pictures since we rarely do this in the parks anymore.

 

[FFigawi]

So far, the only thing that rD has done that would limit my future participation is eliminate defferals without an insurance option, and that would only keep me from signing up for challenges.

I'm close to this too. I might be out my $600 for this year's Dopey if they retroactively decide not to offer deferrals, which would make me much more leery of signing up again. On the flip side, with a house not too far from Orlando, combining a trip home with a race and a trip to Disney makes more sense than several separate trips. I know, #expatproblems

 

[Chasing Dopey]

So far, the only thing that rD has done that would limit my future participation is eliminate defferals without an insurance option, and that would only keep me from signing up for challenges. I don't ever see myself running in DL because the course in not on Disney property, so I really don't care what they do out there. The biggest draw that rD races have for me and my family - WDW for our vacation while in town and characters along the courses for pictures since we rarely do this in the parks anymore.

The deferral policy is a challenge. These races are typically booked pretty far out, even if they aren't selling out as quickly as before. The risk factor is pretty high.

I would recommend a DL race, though, for those who have the means. It's smaller, but it also means everything is more compact and convenient, such as the expo. Unlike in Orlando, where the vast majority of the course is inaccessible to everyone but Disney, the course is packed with spectators, local high school bands and cheerleaders, Light Side has a big 501st contingent, and of course lots of places for friends and family to see you along the way. It's a lot of fun.

 

[Chasing Dopey]

But I don't think RunDisney is making the $$ hand-over-fist the way it may appear they are. If I had to guess, the bulk of their profit comes from the Expo (both merch and vendor fees) and then ancillary registrations (ChEAR Squad and Race Retreat). And the merch bit, I think they've got a number they need to meet and they've decided that product scarcity that's almost guaranteed to meet that dollar figure is better than having to drastically discount too much merchandise and essentially get rid of it for cost. It sucks for us as participants, and I do think the logical thing would be to restrict Official Merchandise sales on the first day to only runners - but who knows, if they were to do that they might in turn do away with Disney Visa/AP/DVC discounts on merchandise, and that would suck too.

Yes, they're clearly making resource decisions. But the merchandise scarcity is bizarre in some cases. For example, there is no reason to sell out of the pre-order jackets 7 months before a race. (I can understand D&B doing this, but not for rD items.) They have to set a deadline, but sell out? What is the point of that? It's infuriated my sister, I know that.

They also know the items that will sell out at the expo, in no small part due to resellers. Allowing mail orders of some items at the expo would eliminate the resellers who clog up the process to begin with, and make sure people can get the items to commemorate their achievement that they can actually bring out in public. Telling people 'we won't sell you this, but it's all over ebay for a lot more money' starts them off on the wrong foot, and damages the experience.

 

[Tardisblue]

I LOVE that the 5K medals are metal now.

I'd just like to take a moment to thank you for using the correct spelling of both of these words. Now go out and test your mettle!

Nerd rant over.

 

[rteetz]

This is the problem. Everyone complains that they are not updating areas of the parks and the moment they do everyone complains. The fact is T of T is getting outdated theme wise and by updating to Guardians they are trying to win over a new generation of Disney fans who will one day frequent this site who will complain when the lifecycle of there beloved Guardian ride is closed for the next big thing.

I wonder how many complained years ago when they introduced the star tours ride as a way of selling merchandise.

The fact is they are moving with the times in the hope they can continue to win over the next generation of Disney fanatic We are all starting to get a bit old and they are looking to the future

I disagree. ToT is not outdated as a theme it is incredibly popular. Guardians does not fit in such an attraction.

Star tours was introduced in the 80s and was not specifically to sell merchandise. That deal was done under a different CEO.

I'm 18, and I don't like guardians going into ToT. It just doesn't make sense. Where in the movie is there a tower?

 

[Barca33Runner]

I definitely see where everyone is coming from; I've got my fair share of gripes about how Disney and rD do things. I'm pretty sure that if I had been running multiple events every year that I would have pared back by now and my frustration probably would be magnified. For my four races and one weekend a year, however, I am still really excited to head down to WDW for a racecation.

I think the longer you do something the more wistful you get for the good ol' days and the more rose-colored those past experiences become, so it's tough for me to really judge if there is anything really different about the on-course experience over the past five years. The one thing that has undoubtedly changed (at least for WDW Marathon Weekend) is that the races have become more expensive. If this trend continues I would certainly hope that there are some improvements to justify the increased cost rather than increased cost being used to fill the revenue gap caused by decreased demand.

I'm willing to give rD and Disney the benefit of the doubt for now that they will adjust to the changing market. If ever I feel like they aren't holding up their end of the bargain it is easy enough to decide to run and vacation elsewhere.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Morning temps are beginning to drop around here (finally) so I decided to try long hill repeats for the first time this season. It was a 7 mile run with some really tough long/steep hills and I finished the run in great time and feeling like I could run a lot further. I am pretty surprised given my lack of hill work since I broke my foot, but I am happy to know that I can do it when I need to.

Now I wait and see what muscles are sore tomorrow morning.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I disagree. ToT is not outdated as a theme it is incredibly popular. Guardians does not fit in such an attraction.

Star tours was introduced in the 80s and was not specifically to sell merchandise. That deal was done under a different CEO.

I'm 18, and I don't like guardians going into ToT. It just doesn't make sense. Where in the movie is there a tower?

I also think that the ToT theme remains relevant. Maybe a certain percentage of the patrons are unfamiliar with the Twilight Zone, but that is a tiny part of the "creepy" feel that makes up the overall theme of the ride. That said, I am not opposed to any change in ride themes. Change is good, and it gives Disney a chance to clean things up. Not sure how Guardians ties into a spooky elevator theme, but I also have no idea what they might be planning. Maybe it is no longer an elevator, but some other falling story line?

 

[Barca33Runner]

I disagree. ToT is not outdated as a theme it is incredibly popular. Guardians does not fit in such an attraction.

Star tours was introduced in the 80s and was not specifically to sell merchandise. That deal was done under a different CEO.

I'm 18, and I don't like guardians going into ToT. It just doesn't make sense. Where in the movie is there a tower?

I hate to admit it, but Twilight Zone does nothing for me and actually detracted from my interest in riding ToT for a long time. I have no idea what the IP and licensing issues are with branding ToT to that theme, but if it is a better deal economically to re-brand the ride with some of Disney's IP ... well, I couldn't blame them. I like the ride and will continue to frequent it when in DHS either way, it just doesn't tug at my nostalgia the way it does for others.

Would I rather they expand and give Guardians, etc. their own new attractions? Yeah, but that doesn't seem to be in their minds at this moment. Like I said in another thread, and this is obviously with no insight into the economic or geographic viability of such an option, I would be looking into building a fifth park themed around Star Wars (and, potentially depending on how and if the legal issues with Universal are worked out in the future, Marvel) that featured more thrill rides that would serve as a bridge for older kids and teens who think they've outgrown Disney.

As for re-branding ToT into a Guardians theme? I think they could tie something into the prison since it was multiple levels. They could introduce different people in different cells on the different levels and then stage a jailbreak. I've only seen the movie once a couple years ago, forgive me if that wasn't accurate. Anyway, theme park rides don't necessarily have to make sense.

 

[WhereInFlorida]

But I don't think RunDisney is making the $$ hand-over-fist the way it may appear they are. If I had to guess, the bulk of their profit comes from the Expo (both merch and vendor fees) and then ancillary registrations (ChEAR Squad and Race Retreat).

Well said on the whole post, I have always thought that profit was fairly minimal for RD and certainly not up to WDW Corp standards. I even doubt that expo is much of a profit as there are still the buses, CM, and am sure facility fees to WDW.

I think the longer you do something the more wistful you get for the good ol' days and the more rose-colored those past experiences become, so it's tough for me to really judge if there is anything really different about the on-course experience over the past five years.

Agree as well. So much wisdom being splattered all over the disboards.

 

[rteetz]

I also think that the ToT theme remains relevant. Maybe a certain percentage of the patrons are unfamiliar with the Twilight Zone, but that is a tiny part of the "creepy" feel that makes up the overall theme of the ride. That said, I am not opposed to any change in ride themes. Change is good, and it gives Disney a chance to clean things up. Not sure how Guardians ties into a spooky elevator theme, but I also have no idea what they might be planning. Maybe it is no longer an elevator, but some other falling story line?

It's still going to be an elevator but your going through the collectors items to get the guardians out. To me it doesn't fit. ToT wasn't built to be changed. There is no elevator or big tower in guardians where this makes sense thematically.

 

[rteetz]

I hate to admit it, but Twilight Zone does nothing for me and actually detracted from my interest in riding ToT for a long time. I have no idea what the IP and licensing issues are with branding ToT to that theme, but if it is a better deal economically to re-brand the ride with some of Disney's IP ... well, I couldn't blame them. I like the ride and will continue to frequent it when in DHS either way, it just doesn't tug at my nostalgia the way it does for others.

Would I rather they expand and give Guardians, etc. their own new attractions? Yeah, but that doesn't seem to be in their minds at this moment. Like I said in another thread, and this is obviously with no insight into the economic or geographic viability of such an option, I would be looking into building a fifth park themed around Star Wars (and, potentially depending on how and if the legal issues with Universal are worked out in the future, Marvel) that featured more thrill rides that would serve as a bridge for older kids and teens who think they've outgrown Disney.

As for re-branding ToT into a Guardians theme? I think they could tie something into the prison since it was multiple levels. They could introduce different people in different cells on the different levels and then stage a jailbreak. I've only seen the movie once a couple years ago, forgive me if that wasn't accurate. Anyway, theme park rides don't necessarily have to make sense.

The twilight zone is barely part of the ride. The pre show and music are the biggest parts that involve the twilight zone.

There are licensing fees for it but it's nothing major or too expensive.

Your tie in is sort of how it will be themed.

To me it's like frozen in Norway it sort of works but really doesn't.

 

[rteetz]

I hate to admit it, but Twilight Zone does nothing for me and actually detracted from my interest in riding ToT for a long time. I have no idea what the IP and licensing issues are with branding ToT to that theme, but if it is a better deal economically to re-brand the ride with some of Disney's IP ... well, I couldn't blame them. I like the ride and will continue to frequent it when in DHS either way, it just doesn't tug at my nostalgia the way it does for others.

Would I rather they expand and give Guardians, etc. their own new attractions? Yeah, but that doesn't seem to be in their minds at this moment. Like I said in another thread, and this is obviously with no insight into the economic or geographic viability of such an option, I would be looking into building a fifth park themed around Star Wars (and, potentially depending on how and if the legal issues with Universal are worked out in the future, Marvel) that featured more thrill rides that would serve as a bridge for older kids and teens who think they've outgrown Disney.

As for re-branding ToT into a Guardians theme? I think they could tie something into the prison since it was multiple levels. They could introduce different people in different cells on the different levels and then stage a jailbreak. I've only seen the movie once a couple years ago, forgive me if that wasn't accurate. Anyway, theme park rides don't necessarily have to make sense.

The twilight zone is barely part of the ride. The pre show and music are the biggest parts that involve the twilight zone.

There are licensing fees for it but it's nothing major or too expensive.

Your tie in is sort of how it will be themed.

To me it's like frozen in Norway it sort of works but really doesn't.