Not ROFR thread - general discussion

[ChipTheRescueRanger]

Notification from DVCforless


Listing is re listed over priced contract that beens on the market for ages

 

[fflmaster]

I see a post saying you can make an offer for a contract on dvcforless to bypass the broker. How is this done? I only have the option to “view” the contract by going to the broker’s website to make an offer there.

 

[LittleBitGoofy]

I see a post saying you can make an offer for a contract on dvcforless to bypass the broker. How is this done? I only have the option to “view” the contract by going to the broker’s website to make an offer there.

Click through to see the listing on the individual broker's site and there you can submit an offer.

 

[fflmaster]

Click through to see the listing on the individual broker's site and there you can submit an offer.

Yea, I know you can submit like this. I thought somone posted how they submitted via dvcforless and bypassed the broker.

 

[pzw90]

Well the aggregators only pick up what the brokers have listed, so you would have to go through the broker.

You can look on www.redweek.com or https://tug2.com/timesharemarketplace to see if anyone is posting directly. You could scour Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace or the plethora of Facebook DVC groups.

You could go through the process of making an offer through a broker, getting a contract and the sellers information and reach out to them directly and see if they will play ball to work with you directly. Will it work, probably not. I think the listing agreements have some clause that is an offer is accepted (what you need to do to get to contract phase) then the seller owes the commission, or they need to have it listed for a certain amount of time before the seller can get out without paying the commission. Plus the whole not working with a broker who knows what they are doing might turn people off. Most people want to have it as easy as possible.

 

[disneylandtour]

Well the aggregators only pick up what the brokers have listed, so you would have to go through the broker.

You can look on www.redweek.com or https://tug2.com/timesharemarketplace to see if anyone is posting directly. You could scour Craigslist or Facebook Marketplace or the plethora of Facebook DVC groups.

You could go through the process of making an offer through a broker, getting a contract and the sellers information and reach out to them directly and see if they will play ball to work with you directly. Will it work, probably not. I think the listing agreements have some clause that is an offer is accepted (what you need to do to get to contract phase) then the seller owes the commission, or they need to have it listed for a certain amount of time before the seller can get out without paying the commission. Plus the whole not working with a broker who knows what they are doing might turn people off. Most people want to have it as easy as possible.

A few times I've seen seller's names accidentally posted in listings.

 

[patm95]

I'm on the path to have all of my dues covered by rental points, leaving me with all of the points I want to use for the year due free. I figured it was good math - but I'm finding out there is a good portion of owners that hate owners like me. Not that I care.

I’ve thought about doing this myself. How many points do you feel you’d have to allocate for rental? About half?

 

[fflmaster]

I’ve thought about doing this myself. How many points do you feel you’d have to allocate for rental? About half?

Each resort would be slightly different. And how much you charge in rent would make a difference. But, half is probably a good number.

I generally need 150 points a year. So, if I calculate rental at 18 pp and my dues at 9.12 pp, I would need to rent out 150 points to cover my dues, leaving me with the 150 I need for the year.

 

[mamaofsix]

Each resort would be slightly different. And how much you charge in rent would make a difference. But, half is probably a good number.

I generally need 150 points a year. So, if I calculate rental at 18 pp and my dues at 9.12 pp, I would need to rent out 150 points to cover my dues, leaving me with the 150 I need for the year.

Interesting concept. I am wondering how to account for the cost of the initial buy in for the contract you use just for rentals?

Say you spend $20K on a resale contract strictly to rent out . . . you'd need to cover the costs of not just the dues for both contracts but also that $20K to make the math work in your favor, right?

 

[Brian Noble]

I’ve thought about doing this myself. How many points do you feel you’d have to allocate for rental? About half?

Think about it this way.

Your plan is to buy a set points to use. You also plan to buy another set of points that you will use to generate an income stream. That's just an investment---the fact that it happens to be an investment in a DVC rental doesn't matter. It's just an investment. If you look carefully, I think you will find that in most cases the investment return on "buying DVC points to rent" is not much better than you'd get if you just plowed the purchase price for the "second set" of points into a broad stock index fund, and paid your dues out of that.

And the index fund is a lot less work.

That's not an accident. The significant presence of renters tends to set the market price of points at a number that is neither too high nor too low compared to other investment alternatives. There are ways to get outsized returns on DVC rentals, but it requires a little more than just buy-hold-rent. Instead, you'd need to buy-strip-flip.

Notice how many fully-stripped contracts are on the various broker sites to see how prevalent this is.

 

[mamaofsix]

Think about it this way.

Your plan is to buy a set points to use. You also plan to buy another set of points that you will use to generate an income stream. That's just an investment---the fact that it happens to be an investment in a DVC rental doesn't matter. It's just an investment. If you look carefully, I think you will find that in most cases the investment return on "buying DVC points to rent" is not much better than you'd get if you just plowed the purchase price for the "second set" of points into a broad stock index fund, and paid your dues out of that.

And the index fund is a lot less work.

That's not an accident. The significant presence of renters tends to set the market price of points at a number that is neither too high nor too low compared to other investment alternatives. There are ways to get outsized returns on DVC rentals, but it requires a little more than just buy-hold-rent. Instead, you'd need to buy-strip-flip.

Notice how many fully-stripped contracts are on the various broker sites to see how prevalent this is.

Thank you. Very good explanation.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I’ve thought about doing this myself. How many points do you feel you’d have to allocate for rental? About half?

I might be careful about doing that since Disney has indicated they are going to look more closely at “commercial renters”.

 

[fflmaster]

I might be careful about doing that since Disney has indicated they are going to look more closely at “commercial renters”.

I could see Disney limiting the amount of reservations allowed in someone else’s name not on the deed, but that number isn’t going to affect much. It may limit those “commercial renters” but not those that only rent out their own points on years not using.

What you may see if Disney starting limiting, would be minimum points needed to make a reservation. IE: if Disney only allowed say 10 reservations per use year, someone trying to rent may limit those reservations request to 50 or 100 points minimums.

 

[Brian Noble]

"Surely it can never happen to me" are pretty much infamous as famous last words go.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I could see Disney limiting the amount of reservations allowed in someone else’s name not on the deed, but that number isn’t going to affect much. It may limit those “commercial renters” but not those that only rent out their own points on years not using.

What you may see if Disney starting limiting, would be minimum points needed to make a reservation. IE: if Disney only allowed say 10 reservations per use year, someone trying to rent may limit those reservations request to 50 or 100 points minimums.

Buying points for the express purpose of renting out annually to pay dues every year could establish a pattern of renting that would fall under the definition of a commercial renter.

I am not saying it is at the moment, but Disney has expressed that they will be focusing on it more and so I believe there is an elevated level of risk moving forward. Given the elevated risk and the newly enforced 1099-K reporting laws, I think people need to be much more careful when considering purchasing points for the express purpose of renting.

 

[ChipTheRescueRanger]

I have a feeling the market is going to start to pick up this week !

I hope

New flash it dint hahah

 

[juxtapose]

I want to 100% clarify use year when buying a resale contract. We do not own DVC right now. We want to use some points in November 2025 so we know we need to try to find a resale contract ASAP. If we bid on a contract with February or March Use year with listed 220 points for 2025, we will be able to use those in November 2025? Is there any particular benefit to which month Use Year you get?

 

[TinkAgainU]

I want to 100% clarify use year when buying a resale contract. We do not own DVC right now. We want to use some points in November 2025 so we know we need to try to find a resale contract ASAP. If we bid on a contract with February or March Use year with listed 220 points for 2025, we will be able to use those in November 2025? Is there any particular benefit to which month Use Year you get?

The 11 month booking window for November 2025 opened in December 2024 – so at this point some of what you want to book might already be taken (ask someone with DVC membership to check for you or mention what you’re looking for since some things book super fast, others do not), but if you purchase at the Resort you want, you still have priority over people who have that resort Not as their home resort who must wait until 7 months prior to book there. Even getting on the waitlist prior to the 7th month increases chances of a booking a lot.

FYI, what a lot of people do is book their home resort for the time they want to go, then move-over with a booking (or a waitlist) at 7 months prior to somewhere else they’d like if it’s available – but with all the people who professionally rent out points now, you really want to try and book at your home resort asap. It takes around 45-60 days to close and get access to your points, on a resale purchase so allow for that too.

If you bought a contract with a March Use Year – each allocation of points can be used between 3/1/xx and the following year 2/28/xx. You can borrow or bank points but those are a one-way transfer and expire in the use year they were moved to. If a March Contract has 220 points for 2025 use year (3/1/2025 to 2/28/2026), then November 2025 falls in that time period.

Never confuse when you have point allocations you can use, with when you can Book a reservation. Two different things, and as soon as those are clear in your head everything else makes sense Picking a Use Year does matter. Simply because of cancellation penalties. You might want to buy the Field Guide for around $15 as it explains a lot of this and has charts to help? www.dvcfieldguide.com (I feel like I refer people to this a Lot, no it's not mine lol).

 

[MagicDVC]

I want to 100% clarify use year when buying a resale contract. We do not own DVC right now. We want to use some points in November 2025 so we know we need to try to find a resale contract ASAP. If we bid on a contract with February or March Use year with listed 220 points for 2025, we will be able to use those in November 2025? Is there any particular benefit to which month Use Year you get?

Ideally, you want a UY right before your ideal travel dates. You can bank points up until 8 months from your UY. For example with a Mar UY, you can bank points up until the end of October, which if you need to cancel a trip, you would be able to bank those points into the next UY. Some DVC members like to think that this is a built in cancellation policy.

 

[WinterSolider]

Think about it this way.

Your plan is to buy a set points to use. You also plan to buy another set of points that you will use to generate an income stream. That's just an investment---the fact that it happens to be an investment in a DVC rental doesn't matter. It's just an investment. If you look carefully, I think you will find that in most cases the investment return on "buying DVC points to rent" is not much better than you'd get if you just plowed the purchase price for the "second set" of points into a broad stock index fund, and paid your dues out of that.

And the index fund is a lot less work.

That's not an accident. The significant presence of renters tends to set the market price of points at a number that is neither too high nor too low compared to other investment alternatives. There are ways to get outsized returns on DVC rentals, but it requires a little more than just buy-hold-rent. Instead, you'd need to buy-strip-flip.

Notice how many fully-stripped contracts are on the various broker sites to see how prevalent this is.

The missing piece that you allude to but don't say explicitly is that the market tends to under-discount stripped contracts (or under-premium loaded contracts).

Loaded contracts cost more than stripped contracts, but the gap between the two isn't as wide as it *should* be, meaning it's almost always in your interest to buy loaded and sell stripped. You're going to lose $X on the final sale price but you'll be able to extract $Y of value in the stripping process and Y > X.