New Parking Structure/Pedestrian Bridge Question

[agamble]

Thank you Darkbeer1 for your insight. I just couldn't wrap my head around the idea of keeping the crosswalk where it is when there isn't even an intersection there. It makes a lot of sense the way you've interpreted it that there will be crosswalks at some locations (ie near HOJO), but not necessarily the current crosswalk. And the post from HOJO only said there would still be pedestrian access to the park. They never promised that particular crosswalk would still be open. Lucky for them if true as they're already more expensive than the hotels across from the park and they'll get to claim they're one of the shortest walks after all is said and done.

It would be sad for those staying at hotels near Toy Story if those shuttles are not running daily though.

 

[Darkbeer1]

thMost of the Hotels near Toy Story are part of the ART Shuttle system, which happens to run the Toy Story Buses (Route 20). So the shuttles will be closer, but you will have to pick up the cost of the fare ($5 per day for adults, cheaper per day for a multi-day pass), but then you get picked up near your hotel/motel, and don't have to walk through the Toy Story Parking Lot to get to the pick up point (about a 1/4 mile).

And yes, HoJo's got lucky, but then again, for some folks staying there, it might just be easier to walk down Manchester to the new Transporation Hub and use the bridge. The walk will be similar in distance.

But only time will tell, I can see some lobbying from certain property owners at the Planning Comission Hearing which will more than likely be held September 19th.

 

[Kindermouse]

Thank you Darkbeer1 for your insight. I just couldn't wrap my head around the idea of keeping the crosswalk where it is when there isn't even an intersection there. It makes a lot of sense the way you've interpreted it that there will be crosswalks at some locations (ie near HOJO), but not necessarily the current crosswalk. And the post from HOJO only said there would still be pedestrian access to the park. They never promised that particular crosswalk would still be open. Lucky for them if true as they're already more expensive than the hotels across from the park and they'll get to claim they're one of the shortest walks after all is said and done.

It would be sad for those staying at hotels near Toy Story if those shuttles are not running daily though.

If the hojo becomes the shortest walk I'll definitely being staying farther away and shuttling in. I already dont stay at the hojo because it too far to walk as a single woman alone with young children late at night. Once the foot traffic is diminished it will feel even less safe.

So the choices are A. live action frogger across across harbor DI&S or Tropicanna or B. staying at Candy Cane and using their shuttle. Candy Cane is looking better and better.

 

[Darkbeer1]

FYI, the current plans will have the Candy Cane Inn Shuttle dropping folks off at the new Transportation Hub, so you would still would use the bridge. But then, any other Hotel Shuttle, including the ART shuttle to HoJo's will also be dropping people off there. So it does level the playing field in regards to shuttle access.

So you would have plenty of options with the shuttle, or opt to stay near the new Transportation Hub, such as the Quality Inn Motel, the new Holiday Inn Express, the Courtyard and HoJo's and walking on Manchester to access the bridge. Or the Grand Legacy to the south, which will be access on Disney Way and near the nearby Anaheim GardenWalk and new 4 star Hotels (former Anaheim Plaza) and the JW Marriott at AGW. That walk should be safe and secure with lots of folks.

 

[Kindermouse]

FYI, the current plans will have the Candy Cane Inn Shuttle dropping folks off at the new Transportation Hub, so you would still would use the bridge. But then, any other Hotel Shuttle, including the ART shuttle to HoJo's will also be dropping people off there. So it does level the playing field in regards to shuttle access.

So you would have plenty of options with the shuttle, or opt to stay near the new Transportation Hub, such as the Quality Inn Motel, the new Holiday Inn Express, the Courtyard and HoJo's and walking on Manchester to access the bridge. Or the Grand Legacy to the south, which will be access on Disney Way and near the nearby Anaheim GardenWalk and new 4 star Hotels (former Anaheim Plaza) and the JW Marriott at AGW. That walk should be safe and secure with lots of folks.

Yes I would use the bridge with the shuttle but I guess my point is that there isn't any point at staying at any of the closer properties if you are going to have to walk over the sky bridge either way. Basically none of them are actually convenient enough to pay for their convenience.

The walk down harbor without the foot traffic that it has now, but with the same level of mentally ill homeless people would feel too sketchy. So those would be out.

Disney properties are too expensive for the 12 nights a year I try for across a few trips. So those are out.

Hojo is a long walk alone at night no matter how you slice it is and already a lot more expensive than many others on harbor. So that's out.

The hotels with immediate access around where the bridge begins already charge too much, certainly more than I feel they are worth. Especially when considering the multiple trips a year that we like to do. They are only going to charge more once they hold the title as most convenient (though still not really any more convenient that taking a shuttle from further away).

That is why I said the Candy Cane is looking like the winner. Lol and to think I used to say it was too far away.

 

[GoBears 1980]

So it looks like I'm going to be playing live action frogger when I go to Disneyland...sounds...exciting? There is no way they are going to keep people who stay across the street on harbor from crossing the street there. With or without a cross walk. According to your post the front area will have a handicapped drop off area which means it will be an entry point which means that people who stay across the street will still cross there. Period. You can't even get them to walk at rope drop and how simple is that.

I sure hope your wrong about the removal of the cross walk or there are going to be some young families that get turned into road pizza. The city has a responsibility to have crosswalks where people want to cross for the safety of pedestrians (who have the right of way even at unmarked intersections) so I can't see how they think that the bridge would serve that need. people won't walk that far away just to cross the street.

Why did you quote the part that said "removing the crosswalk by the Park Vue Inn and extending the median on Harbor Blvd in the area, including a fence to prevent people from trying to cross where not allowed" and ignore the "fence" part?

It will look like this.

https://goo.gl/maps/FGa3goPgDm32

So any family trying to cross Harbor will only get as far as the center median unless they intend to hop the fence with grandma, the stroller and kids.

The city has an obligation to drivers as well as pedestrians. Pedestrians do not have the right of way to cross a street any place they want. Where the crosswalk is right now isn't an intersection.

 

[Kindermouse]

I included it because I would be surprised if it actually kept everyone from trying to cross unless it is an 8 foot sheer faced concrete divider. I imagine there are people sans grama and the stroller that will try to cross there or elsewhere to save them the near 1/3 mile walk from harbor to the bridge entrance. I see myself driving down harbor and trying not to hit people because people don't have a safe place to cross.

Yes the city has a right to protect its drivers but every intersection with a cross street, and there are many, on harbor is a crosswalk whether it is marked or not.

EDITED TO ADD: as it turns out it doesnt need to be a true intersection midblock crosswalks also give pedestrians the legal right of way.
this is from the CA DMV website:

• Respect the right-of-way of pedestrians. Always stop for any pedestrian crossing at corners or other crosswalks, even if the crosswalk is in the middle of the block, at corners with or without traffic signal lights, whether or not the crosswalks are marked by painted lines.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/right_of_way

 

[gary1955]

.... just a low grade ramp that meets ADA requirements (that means no more than a one foot raise over 12 feet of the ramp, so the ramps will have to be at least 240 feet long, think of the Tomorrowland Monorail ramps, which meet the code regarding slope)

a 1 in 12 ramp requires a level landing every 30 feet. typically this is a corner or turnaround so the level area is usually about the width of the walkway. I think they will probably design for a 1 in 20 slope or more so that it does not require level landings. this means we are talking about something more than 400 feet. they didn't specify if the 20 foot height is to the top of the walkway surface or the clear height at the roadway so this will effect the length of the approach walkways if the depth of the bridge structure has to be added. depending on how the supports are designed this could add another 40 or 48 inches in height and added length for the approach walkways. end to end we are looking at something at least 900 feet long.

one thing for certain it is not going to be anything like the slope of the ramp at the east end of Paradise Pier. I had to push a wheelchair up that slope on a hot day and I was tired at the top. it is a real ordeal for someone in a chair to do it by hand.

 

[michellekcm]

So, to get this straight in my head, to go to, say, Denny's, you would walk down to Katella to cross and then back up? Or McDonald's you would walk up to the HoJo intersection (Manchester?) and back down? Just trying to figure out how this will impact our plans in January....

Edited to add - ok, just re-read it and the crosswalk probably won't be closed by January. But in the future this would be the case?

 

[smartlabelprint]

Let me add, the new Pedestrian Bridge is planned without stairs, but using ramps. The bridge is supposed to be about 20 feet high, so there will be room needed on both sides of Harbor, the east side ramp will be where the Carousel is, and the west bound ramp will be over the Cast Member parking area/drop off (Harbor Pointe next to Costuming). The ramp doesn't have to be 20 feet high for much of it, just tall enough for the CM Buses and then tall enough to walk under closer to Costuming. The entire bridge and ramps will be in a secure area, so once you go through security on the East Side, you won't have to do it again. But no elevators on escalators are planned currently, just a low grade ramp that meets ADA requirements (that means no more than a one foot raise over 12 feet of the ramp, so the ramps will have to be at least 240 feet long, think of the Tomorrowland Monorail ramps, which meet the code regarding slope)

It looks like the Toy Story Lot buses will drop off a bit farther away, where the Taxi Stand is currently off of Harbor. This and a special ADA shuttle service from the new Transportation Hub will be the only two shuttles allowed to use the area (driveway entrance at Disney Way). Then there will be a secondary Security Check entrance for those guests, and those crossing on Harbor Blvd at Manchester (the HoJo folks). It will much smaller in size than currently available.

Yes, there are rumors from multiple sources that the current Toy Story Shuttle Drop Off area will become part of DCA to allow expansion for Marvel Land, and it does make sense. They could easily decide to remove Stage 17, Monsters Inc. and other nearby structures for a new area to develop. And with more land space available, a good potential for a major attraction.

No changes are planned to the West Side, Downtown Disney and the Hotels will be outside the Security Zone, and all folks parking at the Mickey & friends Structure will be screened after taking the tram.

As for the Toy Story Lot, it will remain open most days, and might even be expanded. A lot of it has to do with how the new Star Wars Land impactes attendance. So on slow days, the Toy Story Lot won't open when the park opens, and will only open when needed. But on most days, it will still operate. The city wants more access to it though, for the Convention Center and its expansion (they lost parking next to the Hilton), so there will be a deal made as part of the permit approval. Expansion of Toy Story will depend on the new planned Cast Member parking Structure planned for the corner of Harbor and Ball, currently a flat level CM lot. But Disney wil pay for the new structure if demand warrants.

As for the city closing the current crosswalk, there is no "need" for it after the Bridge opens, and they can easily close it, if that is what they want to do. (We are talking city owned land, not Disney). They are providing crossing at Manchester with a Traffic Light. And yes, there will more than likely be Anaheim Police in the area when the change is first made to keep people from playing Frogger. And it IS against the law to cross in the middle of a street, it is called Jaywalking and enforced in California and many other places. (Since the city wants to remove the light and intersection next to the Park Vue Inn).

And the new ADA shuttle I mentioned will load at the new Eastern Transporation Harbor off Manchester, where folks taking the ART Shuttle, other Hotel Shuttles and public Transporation (OCTA/LA Metro) will be droping off guests. It will go up Manchester to Harbor, turn left on Harbor to Disney Way, go into the new Shuttle area and drop off, then take Disney Way to Clementine/Manchester back to the new Hub. (Circle route). That and the Toy Story Buses will be the only two allowed to use the area. Anyone being dropped off with ADA needs will have to go to the new Hub on Manchester, and use the new Shuttle, or opt for using the bridge, which some folks will opt to do

So there are winners, with the Quality Inn, Holiday Inn Express and Grand Legacy at the Park getting lucky with the new changes, and the Park Vue Inn and BWPPPI&S being the losers and requiring more of a walk.

But as stated, these are still PROPOSED changes and we will know more in the next couple of months, as there is the review period, and then the Planning Commission hearing at City Hall, and then there are cases where the entire City Council will want to have a second review and vote. But Disney really wants the project done by the time Star Wars Land opens to the public.

Thanks so much dark beer. Always very through & detailed.

A little over my head but I'm happy to hear about the graded ramp & no elevators!

 

[agamble]

So, to get this straight in my head, to go to, say, Denny's, you would walk down to Katella to cross and then back up? Or McDonald's you would walk up to the HoJo intersection (Manchester?) and back down?

It sounds that way. Again a win for Disney as it makes it more difficult to get to places outside the park to eat. Though certainly not impossible, especially if you're staying at one of the nearby hotels. Tom Bricker mentions some ordinances that pertain to the businesses in the area of Disneyland though in his report http://www.disneytouristblog.com/disneyland-resort-eastern-gateway-expansion/ though it was written before HOJO's announcement that there would still be pedestrian access. I imagine businesses will protest the idea of no walkway. Whether they win or not probably matters more to the city than Disney. It's the road that is a problem. I don't think Disney really has any issues with the crosswalk being there. Though there may not be an entrance to the park in that exact location any longer causing guests to walk toward a new entrance way.

 

[Nonsuch]

I included it because I would be surprised if it actually kept everyone from trying to cross unless it is an 8 foot sheer faced concrete divider. I imagine there are people sans grama and the stroller that will try to cross there or elsewhere to save them the near 1/3 mile walk from harbor to the bridge entrance. I see myself driving down harbor and trying not to hit people because people don't have a safe place to cross...

Guests can be protected from their own poor judgement by eliminating the entrance on the west side of Harbor, and have everyone use the Eastern Gateway.

 

[GoBears 1980]

Yes the city has a right to protect its drivers but every intersection with a cross street, and there are many, on harbor is a crosswalk whether it is marked or not.

EDITED TO ADD: as it turns out it doesnt need to be a true intersection midblock crosswalks also give pedestrians the legal right of way.
this is from the CA DMV website:

• Respect the right-of-way of pedestrians. Always stop for any pedestrian crossing at corners or other crosswalks, even if the crosswalk is in the middle of the block, at corners with or without traffic signal lights, whether or not the crosswalks are marked by painted lines.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/hdbk/right_of_way

There are no uncontrolled intersections on Harbor Blvd South of Ball in Anaheim. There are no crosswalks other than at controlled intersections. The crosswalk that exists now in front of the Best Western Park Place Inn is going to be removed and that will make any attempt to cross Harbor there illegal.

California Vehicle Code Section 21955 (CVC §21955) states that: “Between adjacent intersections controlled by traffic control signal devices or by police officers, pedestrians shall not cross the roadway at any place except in a crosswalk"

Since Manchester and Disney Way are adjacent intersections controlled by traffic control signal devices any attempt to cross Harbor other than in those crosswalks will be illegal.

 

[hanna-nana]

If this ramp is the only entrance, that makes for a super long walk with stiles at the end of the day. heck, even to start the day! and if all shuttles drop off there, too? Nothing is close. Right? Unless we stay at the DLH. I was hoping to go in the next year. I'm thinking I'll wait until this is all done now. Does not sound fun with all that construction. But who am I kidding. We won't be able to stay away.

 

[Kindermouse]

I just realized that with the long distance to the parks it will be the end of the midday break. Oh my gosh I'm so sad. . I always tell the WDW people that they may have Epcot but we have a 5 minute walk to the turnstiles. How sad that one of the gems about DLR (and I consider staying close and the convenience it affords to be a big gem) will be gone unless you spend 500 a night at the Grand.

 

[Darkbeer1]

The Disneyland Hotel is about a mile walk, depending on your room through Downtown Disney to get the Main Entrance Plaza and security check. No trams/shuttles are offered.

As for the access to the nearby Harbor Blvd restaurants, yes, you will have to go to Manchester and then cross Harbor to get to Mimi's Café, Panera, McDonald's, IHOP, Denny's and Tony Roma's. So they all will be losing business if the plan is approved. (and of course, the Pizza Press will close in mid October).

And thanks Gary, I forgot about the level platform breaks required on the ramp, but there is plenty of room on both sides of the new Bridge to allow the needed distance, and Disney has stated they are planning an ADA (wheelchair) Shuttle from the new Transportation Hub. But then, loading the vehicle with a Wheelchair isn't fast, as they have to load, and then by law, strap down the chair before driving. So some will opt to use the bridge instead. Alas, for strollers, you won't have that option.

It will be an interesting story to watch in the nest year or two as to the final decisions that will be made.

 

[Kindermouse]

The Disneyland Hotel is about a mile walk, depending on your room through Downtown Disney to get the Main Entrance Plaza and security check. No trams/shuttles are offered.

.

So, even with the sky bridge making the harbor hotels somewhat inaccessible DLH still isn't closer than offsites? Hojo Is just under half a mile making it twices as close as DLH even with the inconvenience of the skybridge. I think all the on property hotels will get a huge boost because of this but to be sure but It is important for families to note that the on properties (aside from the grand of course) are still not the closest.

 

[Darkbeer1]

Kindermouse, one big issue, how do you measure the distance between a Hotel/Motel and the Parks Entrance, a fellow reporter of mine years ago decided on using the Hotel Lobby/check-in to the center of the Esplanade (Star) as a fair gauge. Now this can be misleading, for example, the Disneyland Hotel has three towers, and can add about a 1/4 of a mile in addition if staying at the Frontier Tower, same with the Grand Californian. Also the Howard Johnson Plaza Hotel (aka HoJo's), the back tower also adds additional distance. Then you also need to take things into consideration, for example, the Paradise Pier Hotel is well known for its lack of Elevators and how slow they are. Also you do need to think about if they offer shuttles, and what type. Disney Hotels do not offer the option, they want you to walk through Downtown Disney and spend money. In the city of Anaheim, all private shuttles are not allowed, though the Candy Cane Inn and Anaheim Majestic Garden Hotel were Grandfathered and can still operate their own, so long as they don't need a major Building Permit, in which case, they will have to switch to the ART system. ART was designed to reduce traffic and to get "clean air" credits from the State and Federal Government. ART has expanded and does serve other nearby cities, but Hotels are not required to use them. So a few Hotels on/near Harbor in Garden Grove opt to run their own shuttle instead.

I am going to use an approximate measure, based on my knowledge and show you a few walking maps.

Let's start with the Frontier Tower at the Disneyland Hotel, about .56 of a mile.

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=6931216

Now, let's look at a couple of the "lucky" Hotels near the new transportation Hub.

The Quality Inn is .57 of a mile using the new bridge.

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=6931224

And now the Grand Legacy at the Park, .72 of a mile using the bridge.

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=6931226

So it does come down to a lot of things, the basic cost of the lodging, what benefits do you get (Breakfast, WiFi, etc), the quality of the room, do you want a kitchen (extended stay type of hotel), do they charge for parking (if you have a vehicle), resort fees, style of Hotel/Motel (basic to deluxe or in the middle), what is easy access from your Hotel, for example, the Disney Hotels give you no real option to go off-property to a restaurant, drug store (Food/drink) and other stores or other things that can save you money. The time it takes to walk/use the shuttle, also what other things do you want to do in the area besides the Disneyland Resort, many folks want to explore the area, including other Theme Parks, Museums, Sporting Events, Shopping Malls, etc. Without a car, the Disney Hotels are a poor choice. The Harbor Drive Hotels have access to the ART system, plus the OCTA and LA Metro busses, and private shuttles. Also more choices in things like Taxis, as Disney has a contract with Yellow Cab to only allow them to pick up guests on property.

I do understand that the proposed changes will make some people unhappy, but as both a big Theme/Amusement Park fan, and a resident of the city of Anaheim, I do understand the need to address the traffic issues and why Disney and the city are addressing the issues. And since I have seen folks say they walk about 20 miles or more a day in the parks (sometimes less if only visiting one of the two parks in a day), the amount of "extra" distance is small. One quick example, just walking down Main Street is about 1/6th of a mile.

Good luck in making your personal decisions and having many more trips to the area.

 

[Darkbeer1]

One other point, Kindermouse, in regards to this comment... >>I think all the on property hotels will get a huge boost<< That is not possible, as all the Disney owned Hotels have a high occupancy rate already, so if anything the rates might go up, but not the amount of guests, due to the limited supply. Disney just announced a planned 4th Hotel in the current Downtown Disney parking lot, and they are planning a Higher end Hotel than the Grand Californian, looking for the amount they can charge a night, and not focused on adding more rooms. Plus the new planned competition of the 4-Star Hotels not owned by Disney, such as the JW Marriott and the two new Wincome Hotels, though one will much more focused on the Convention Center than Disney (the former Anabella). So Disney in California is much more focused on the amount they can charge per night, unlike Disney in Florida, where they own so much land, and can offer a large variety of price ranges to try and keep people on property.

 

[ClaraOswald]

Okay....So I am still super confused.

First, if we go to Disneyland in 2017 (either February, March, or June)...will we still have the same walk from the Desert Inn to the parks? Or will it be changed by then?

Second, in the future, if we stay at a hotel that has a shuttle...would that basically drop us off at the new parking structure where we'd go through security and then over the new bridge?