New pamphlet handed out yesterday...3/3/2012

[Chickenlady]

OMG, aren't those the worst! I forget the company that rents those, but I would never, never rent from them. Almost as bad as the bike guys in Vegas with the escort ads on their backs....always made me wonder if your "escort" would arrive on a bike.

 

[ttintagel]

Irritating though it may be, it has historically been the case that when people of two vastly different sizes are attempting to maneuver around one another in a small space, the societal norm is to place the responsibility of greater caution on the larger of the two parties, because the larger person has more potential to seriously injure the smaller one. If you increase your size and weight by sitting on a 280 lb machine, then you are the larger party, and the burden of care falls on you.

You know, I used to think that way, too. Then and injury happened to me, and I saw it from the other side. and realized it's just not as simple as that, not matter how much some people would like it to be. The limitations of the device and the conditions on the ground just don't fit with that worldview.

It's physically impossible to stop a scooter as quickly as you'd have to if you were going to always yield the right of way. Making a rule like that would be, for all practical intents and purposes, banning the disabled from the park because they'd only be able to move a couple of feet per day.

The only times I ever came close to hitting people is when they were being egregiously rude or inattentive. Like, parents pushing their small children out in front of me a foot away, or people swinging on the railings of a ramp, or walking with their faces buried in a phone, or parents allowing their children to run unsupervised at full speed across traffic. As a wise man once said, you cannae change the laws of physics. Newton's laws be a harsh mistress. That's why railroads have crossing lights and barriers (and cowcatchers), and why you;re not allowed to play on the subway tracks.

The only way you can prevent accidents between smaller and larger parties when the smaller parties are aggressively putting themselves in harm's way is to completely eliminate either the larger or smaller parties, and I don't think Disney wants to lose the revenue from either one.

Obviously, since a pamphlet experiment was tried, SOMEONE feels that there is risk to be managed in this scenario

Sure - the risk of more butthurt from the able-bodied, some of whom resent having to make any accommodation at all and are very vocal about it, and parents who don't want to bother making any effort to teach their children.

 

[TLSnell1981]

You can't be serious. I can think of lots of other signs if this is so harmless..(Caution: Drunk person), (Warning: Stupid person), (Caution: May be distracted person), (Caution: Fat person), (Warning: Stinky person) and on and on. Labeling a person or a scooter as a "Rental:Novice Driver" is demeaning and prob. against ADA, since I've never seen "Caution: Blind person" stuck on anyone's back.

You are a much kinder person, than I am...

 

[Talking Hands]

OMG, aren't those the worst! I forget the company that rents those, but I would never, never rent from them. Almost as bad as the bike guys in Vegas with the escort ads on their backs....always made me wonder if your "escort" would arrive on a bike.

I think most of the rental companies are doing this now. If I see a rental I assume I need to be wary of them.
For the people commenting that people in ECV/wheelchairs are at hinney heighttry it 24/7 even when not in a wheelchair. The life of short people like me.

 

[Chickenlady]

I think most of the rental companies are doing this now. If I see a rental I assume I need to be wary of them.

Randy's mobility does not have any "rental" signs on their scooters. They are very nice, cheap and the scooter work well. Never had any problems and they do meet you in person to make sure you don't have any questions. Or in my case, just to shoot the breeze and catch up.

 

[SueM in MN]

Randy's mobility does not have any "rental" signs on their scooters. They are very nice, cheap and the scooter work well. Never had any problems and they do meet you in person to make sure you don't have any questions. Or in my case, just to shoot the breeze and catch up.

I especially like that about Randy's for new users. They make sure that whoever is going to use it has been shown and operated all the controls (also leave written information).

Written instructions with the ECV is good, but I am sure that some don't read it (based on the number of people DH and I have seen in the parks who are obviously new users and did not know there was even a speed control on the ECV they rented, much less where it was.

 

[jgualario]

I'm sorry you were offended. My husband was in physical pain when he was hit by a scooter and was taken to the hospital for stitches. The scooter was behind him and ran right into him on our way into Fantasmic. Now I understand that all scooter riders are not equal. However, after all of the poor examples of scooter drivers on these board- I for one am glad that Disney is finally saying something. (We were not reimbursed for ANY of the hospital bills)

I would love to see Disney paint scooter pathways on the pavement (kind of like bike lines on the streets). That way everyone is aware of who has the right of way.

 

[SueM in MN]

I'm sorry you were offended. My husband was in physical pain when he was hit by a scooter and was taken to the hospital for stitches. The scooter was behind him and ran right into him on our way into Fantasmic. Now I understand that all scooter riders are not equal. However, after all of the poor examples of scooter drivers on these board- I for one am glad that Disney is finally saying something. (We were not reimbursed for ANY of the hospital bills)

I would love to see Disney paint scooter pathways on the pavement (kind of like bike lines on the streets). That way everyone is aware of who has the right of way.

I'm sorry he was hurt.
The problem with making painted lanes would be keeping people not on scooters out of it.
There is a well marked separated pathway that leads to the entrance of the Land pavilion at Epcot. It is marked with wheelchair symbols at the beginning and end of the path, has rails on each side, so you have to enter it from one of the openings, and a wheelchair symbol is marked on the pavement.
Every time we have used it with DD's wheelchair, there have been more walkers in that path than people with ECVs or wheelchairs.
People are in their own little world and either don't notice or don't care.

Painted lines would be the same, except there would not be rails dividing it from the rest of the pathway.

 

[bouncycat]

I'm sorry you were offended. My husband was in physical pain when he was hit by a scooter and was taken to the hospital for stitches. The scooter was behind him and ran right into him on our way into Fantasmic. Now I understand that all scooter riders are not equal. However, after all of the poor examples of scooter drivers on these board- I for one am glad that Disney is finally saying something. (We were not reimbursed for ANY of the hospital bills)

I would love to see Disney paint scooter pathways on the pavement (kind of like bike lines on the streets). That way everyone is aware of who has the right of way.

Well, they have one going into the land at Epcot. I was there last night, and I had to wait for a group of people coming down the ramp, 3 wide covering the WHOLE ramp for me to go up. so, with them painting pathways on the pavement, it won't work. Walking people will not abide by that rule. Same thing with the bathrooms, people with kids, or 5 teenagers are usually always in the big stall, so I don't take my chair in with me anymore. People don't abide by the rules as it is, and don't look where they're going. yea, there are bad scooter people out there. But it's a VERY small minority. I've said it before, everyone has a bad scooter driver story, shoot, I have bad walker stories. It happens. It can happen ANYWHERE. Even at a mall. So, the paintings will not work.

 

[SueM in MN]

1. Texting or talking on a phone while moving
2. Following too closely (tailgating)
3. People who cut you off
4. Speeding
5. Swerving in an out of 'traffic'
6. Not letting you merge into traffic
7. Slow people 'dawdling' where othes can't pass
8. People moving into your path without looking
9. Looking to the side instead of where you're going
10. People who are indecisive about where they are going

Top pet peeves about ECV and wheelchair users?
Top pet peeves about people pushing strollers?
Top pet peeves that ECV and wheelchair uses have about people walking in the parks?
None of the above?
All of the above?

The correct answer is none of the above.
This list is on an article in the April 2012 issue of Consumer Reports and was from a national study of 845 Americans conducted by Consumer Reports Research about other drives on the roads. I left out the things that had to do with parking, not dimming headlights and not using turn signals, but otherwise the list is from magazine article.

Even though the correct answer is none of the above, it could easily be all of the above.
The same basic list shows up in every thread where people walking complain about the behavior of ECV and wheelchair users, people and people using ECVS and wheelchairs complain about behavior of other people.

I drive to work every day in rush hour traffic in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area. I see those behaviors every day.
Most drivers are courteous, but a few who are in their own world, don't see a problem with what they are doing, are not skilled in driving (and maybe should not be), or just don't care make problems for everyone.
In most cases, they do KNOW what they are supposed to be doing and how they are supposed to be driving, what rules to follow, etc.
But, being aware does not always translate into better behavior.

Put that same 'bad driver' into WDW and they will probably show those same annoying (and somewhat dangerous) behaviors, whether they are piloting an ECV, a wheelchair, a stroller or just their own 2 feet.

Add some extenuating factors to that, including things like:

• Many people are not familiar with the parks and are studying maps as they go.
• There are a lot of things to see and people are trying to look around as they go.
• People are focused on where they are going, not where they are.
• People are hurrying to get places.
• People are trying to keep their parties together.
• People are using cell phones to hook up with oth members of their party, track wait times and and navigate.
• ECV and wheelchair users are below most people's line of sight.
• Some people are not about other people - its all about them.

It doesn't matter if you are walking or riding, those things are likely to cause issues between other guests.

 

[Michigan]

We are fast coming to the end of our winter 6 miles from Disney only 3 more weeks left. Here are some things I noticed yesterday from people using scooters and walking people.

1. Woman on Apple rented scooter with 2 kids one on each knee both helping her operate it going very fast into a pile of strollers at the new Dumbo ride.

2. Another woman in the TTC with a cigarette in one hand while driving aother Apple scooter almost burn someone.

3. 3 people in manual wheelchairs 2 of them my girls waiting in the hallway next to the wall to be taken to the buggy on HM duck several times so they wouldn't be hit in the head with backpack from people exiting the ride.

 

[Inkmahm]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if I'm saying something you already know.

I just was at WDW 3/13 o 3/20. My arthritis in my knees is such that I can not walk the parks anymore and I rent a scooter from Disney when I am there. I have done this for the last several years. Since we go to Disney 3 or 4 times a year, I know it would be cheaper for me to buy a scooter of my own or rent from an outside vendor. But, I still have hope that someday I will be able to walk the parks again and not need the scooter.

Anyway, I rented scooters in each of the 4 parks. I didn't get any handout about scooters at any of the parks. I did get the standard instruction from the CMs when I picked up the scooters.

On this trip, the parks were very crowded compared to what I have been used to in the off season. I tried hard NOT to hit anyone. Sometimes, people walked right in front of me on purpose trying to "beat" me, like people do at train crossings. There are no breaks on the scooters so I was not able to stop all the time! I admit I caught a few heels that way. Adults I didn't feel too sorry for but kids just don't know any better. They run because they can.

The WDW park scooters don't go all that fast but the ones I saw from outside rentals could build up some speed. I don't know that I'd have a problem getting a handout that reminded me to slow down and be safe. Also to not have kids ride on the scooter with the driver. I didn't see the wording, but I understand the intent for safety.

 

[SueM in MN]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if I'm saying something you already know.

I just was at WDW 3/13 o 3/20. My arthritis in my knees is such that I can not walk the parks anymore and I rent a scooter from Disney when I am there. I have done this for the last several years. Since we go to Disney 3 or 4 times a year, I know it would be cheaper for me to buy a scooter of my own or rent from an outside vendor. But, I still have hope that someday I will be able to walk the parks again and not need the scooter.

Anyway, I rented scooters in each of the 4 parks. I didn't get any handout about scooters at any of the parks. I did get the standard instruction from the CMs when I picked up the scooters.

From what I have heard, the pamphlets were only handed out for a few days and then stopped.

On this trip, the parks were very crowded compared to what I have been used to in the off season. I tried hard NOT to hit anyone. Sometimes, people walked right in front of me on purpose trying to "beat" me, like people do at train crossings. There are no breaks on the scooters so I was not able to stop all the time! I admit I caught a few heels that way. Adults I didn't feel too sorry for but kids just don't know any better. They run because they can.

Most people assume scotters have no brakes, but that is not actually true.
They don't have brakes that you apply like a car brakes. The brakes on a scooter or power wheelchair are automatic. When you let go of the throttle (or joystick on a power wheelchair), it automatically brakes, without the driver having to do anything.

The WDW park scooters don't go all that fast but the ones I saw from outside rentals could build up some speed. I don't know that I'd have a problem getting a handout that reminded me to slow down and be safe. Also to not have kids ride on the scooter with the driver. I didn't see the wording, but I understand the intent for safety.

The complaint people have written about was that the pamphlet was not about safety; it was about courtesy.
One of the points people reported reading was telling people on ECVs to keep their distance from others to be courteous.
But, a lot of the hits are caused by things you mentioned, people trying to 'beat' the ECV, like cars at train crossings or purposely crossing in front of the person using an ECV. A lot of the comments on the thread were reflecting the need for people walking to understand that kind of behavior is dangerous and how they should behave around ECVs - give them space, don't stop suddenly in front of one, they can't stop as quickly as someone walking.

No one would have complained if they handed out a safety pamphlet to everyone, added the information to all the patk maps or put a sign up with the information and directed everyone entering the park to look at it.

 

[Inkmahm]

I have a similar issue with Tower of Terror at DHS (but not DCA). I know I can get the ECV through the mainstream line - because I did it by accident once. The Greeter was working with some Guests, and since I knew where to go frommthe olden days on foot - I went. No problem.

Turns out, because the WDW rental scooters are bulkier and don't fit, they won't allow any ECV to use that entrance. You need to transfer. Tough when you're solo with not a lot of upper body strength. Even after I met up with the Attraction Lead at closing (prearranged with Guest Services, I'm not quiet ) and demonstrated it's navigable.

The DCA ToT queue truly is mainstreamed.

I was just at ToT last week. They wouldn't let me through the stand by line with my ECV. We came back later with fast passes and I tried again. This time the CM asked me if I had been on the attraction before. When I said I had, he directed me to go through the gift shop and find a CM there who would have me park my ECV at the elevator for the ride. I was okay with that. I didn't skip any long line with that special entrance because I had fast passes anyway. But I would have been happier had they let me take the ECV through the stand by line in the first place.

 

[Inkmahm]

From what I have heard, the pamphlets were only handed out for a few days and then stopped.

Most people assume scotters have no brakes, but that is not actually true.
They don't have brakes that you apply like a car brakes. The brakes on a scooter or power wheelchair are automatic. When you let go of the throttle (or joystick on a power wheelchair), it automatically brakes, without the driver having to do anything.


The complaint people have written about was that the pamphlet was not about safety; it was about courtesy.
One of the points people reported reading was telling people on ECVs to keep their distance from others to be courteous.
But, a lot of the hits are caused by things you mentioned, people trying to 'beat' the ECV, like cars at train crossings or purposely crossing in front of the person using an ECV. A lot of the comments on the thread were reflecting the need for people walking to understand that kind of behavior is dangerous and how they should behave around ECVs - give them space, don't stop suddenly in front of one, they can't stop as quickly as someone walking.

No one would have complained if they handed out a safety pamphlet to everyone, added the information to all the patk maps or put a sign up with the information and directed everyone entering the park to look at it.

But letting go of the handle that is the throttle doesn't stop the scooter on a dime. Hand brakes would stop it quicker. My issue is someone jumping in front of me is going to get hit even if I let go of the throttle immediately because I just can't stop that fast.

I did take the time to read about 90% of this thread and now I understand a bit better. I would also be upset if I was handed something to tell me to have more courtesy on the scooter.

 

[kaytieeldr]

I have to respectfully disagree. Hand brakes wouldn't stop an ECV quicker than simply releasing the throttle because using hand brakes would require the next step (additional/separate action) of, after/upon releasing the throttle, engaging the hand brake.

Two steps instead of one. Mechanics and engineering aside, it doesn't seem you've factored either human response time, or the time it takes from when the brake is initially activated, to when it completes the action of completely stopping the ECV.

But letting go of the handle that is the throttle doesn't stop the scooter on a dime. Hand brakes would stop it quicker.

 

[SueM in MN]

I have to respectfully disagree. Hand brakes wouldn't stop an ECV quicker than simply releasing the throttle because using hand brakes would require the next step (additional/separate action) of, after/upon releasing the throttle, engaging the hand brake.

Two steps instead of one. Mechanics and engineering aside, it doesn't seem you've factored either human response time, or the time it takes from when the brake is initially activated, to when it completes the action of completely stopping the ECV.

Agree.
Nothing stops on a dime (those pesky rules of physics prevent it).
Since the motor on an ECV or power wheelchair is an electric motor, cutting the power by letting go of the throttle or joystick will stop the motor. Once the motor stops, the device won't go. The throttle works kind of like a light switch - if the switch is in the off position, no electricity is flowing, so no power.
Put to the on position and there is power.

This is different than a gasoline motor, like on a car. Once the car is started, you don't have to continually push the gas pedal down to keep the engine going. It will idle for a long time without you giving any gas. If the brakes are not on or it is not in park, it will move.

On an ECV or power wheelchair, when you let go of the throttle, wheel brakes are automatically applied without the driver having to do anything. Adding additional brakes would not stop it any faster (still under the same laws of physic).
it would just be another step that someone had to remember to do and would probably slow things down.

The ECV or power wheelchair brakes are on all the time unless the throttle is activated. That is why it doesn't roll or coast on hills when it is on, but the throttle is not activated.
Next time you have an ECV, try something. Turn it on, but keep your hand away from the throttle and try to push the ECV. You won't be able to because the automatic brakes are on.

So, it does have brakes, just not the same type as in a car, motorcycle or bicycle.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

It is possible to do an "emergency stop" in an ECV, but you have to know what you are doing and have quick reflexes. If needed, and my hands are correctly positioned, I can flip the throttle into reverse and the motor will try to back up, slowing it very quickly. But I also have to get my fingers off the throttle quickly afterwards to both activate the brakes and so I don't actually back into anyone. And since it is an electric motor it will not get damaged.

As they say in the commercials: "This was done by a professional stunt driver, don't try this at home."

 

[bidnow5]

It is possible to do an "emergency stop" in an ECV, but you have to know what you are doing and have quick reflexes. If needed, and my hands are correctly positioned, I can flip the throttle into reverse and the motor will try to back up, slowing it very quickly. But I also have to get my fingers off the throttle quickly afterwards to both activate the brakes and so I don't actually back into anyone. And since it is an electric motor it will not get damaged.

As they say in the commercials: "This was done by a professional stunt driver, don't try this at home."

Not true for stopping on all scooters on my very old Pace Saver. The first time I took it to Disney I tried reverse to stop but it has a chain drive all it did was jump the sprocket making lots of noise for about 2 feet luckily the one I tried to stop for heard the noise seen me and jumped back out of the way

 

[chloelovesdisney]

Why can't they just put regular brakes on scooters?