My Slow Divorce from Walt Disney World

[Disneylover99]

Doesn't Universal also offer "front of the line" passes for people who stay in their moderate to deluxe resorts? Or is it all resorts? I know they've offered that for years, just not sure where they stand now.

I do remember purchasing front of the line access for my kids when we went to Universal many years ago. Price was variable based on crowds and I paid an uncomfortable amount for it but we only had one day, I had already gotten discounted military tickets so I justified it that way.

Yes. Universal offers express pass to their 3 deluxe hotels.

 

[_19disnA]

The actual way some other park's 'jump the line' pass works makes a difference in trying to compare. Even when Disney had FastPass, you could only pre-reserve 3 rides per day and even if you could get additional ones after that, there were no guarantees. Does it apply to every ride or how many per day can you use? Also get the impression that Universal doesn't have nearly as many people attending each day, so their issues would be different.

If a park is so crowded because they let too many people enter, then no 'jump the line' scheme is going to resolve that. I have to believe that as big of a company Disney is they must have some group who looks at daily attendance trends, average wait times, etc. to make future plans on how to handle the expected capacity. Neither FastPass nor Genie solves a park capacity issue.

 

[john7994]

The actual way some other park's 'jump the line' pass works makes a difference in trying to compare. Even when Disney had FastPass, you could only pre-reserve 3 rides per day and even if you could get additional ones after that, there were no guarantees. Does it apply to every ride or how many per day can you use? Also get the impression that Universal doesn't have nearly as many people attending each day, so their issues would be different.

If a park is so crowded because they let too many people enter, then no 'jump the line' scheme is going to resolve that. I have to believe that as big of a company Disney is they must have some group who looks at daily attendance trends, average wait times, etc. to make future plans on how to handle the expected capacity. Neither FastPass nor Genie solves a park capacity issue.

My understanding (nothing but anecdotal) from a Universal approach on line skipping passes is that those lines also tend to be longer to wait in due to the volume of eligible people skipping - so what might be a walk-on or 5 mins in a LL at Disney may be 15-20 mins at Universal. This would be proportional to those staying at premier hotels or buying the pass on a day to day basis (don't know if they limit it). I suppose its manageable to make more people eligible/wait in a LL line with Genie +, but I can almost hear the screaming now!

Presumably and I don't know this for certain, this is why park reservations at Disney may be here longer than many would like to see. But to your point about no scheme working for everyone, this attempt at "throttling" is also deeply unpopular as well - so they really can't win.

 

[JLTraveling]

Neither FastPass nor Genie solves a park capacity issue.

This. There are some really good YouTube deep dives into this topic. But what it basically comes down to is that ALL FastPass or Genie does is redistribute the crowd. With physical queues, people are standing in them, one at a time. You're in line for SM OR you're in line for Dumbo OR you're in line for Pirates. With FastPass/Genie, you're "in line" for one ride virtually and ALSO in a physical line for something else. Or you're wandering the streets waiting for your return time and making the pathways more crowded. Disney's idea, of course, was that you would be dining or shopping (spending money) while waiting for your return. But in reality, nobody eats or shops the amount it would take to account for all your virtual wait times, so instead you're pushed into smaller attraction queues, making them far longer than they would normally be. Plus everyone wants to be in a virtual queue for SOMETHING, so they're using FP/Genie for attractions that don't need it, artificially increasing wait times across the board. But the total number of people in the parks doesn't change.

My understanding (nothing but anecdotal) from a Universal approach on line skipping passes is that those lines also tend to be longer to wait in due to the volume of eligible people skipping - so what might be a walk-on or 5 mins in a LL at Disney may be 15-20 mins at Universal. This would be proportional to those staying at premier hotels or buying the pass on a day to day basis (don't know if they limit it). I suppose its manageable to make more people eligible/wait in a LL line with Genie +, but I can almost hear the screaming now!

Presumably and I don't know this for certain, this is why park reservations at Disney may be here longer than many would like to see. But to your point about no scheme working for everyone, this attempt at "throttling" is also deeply unpopular as well - so they really can't win.

Your anecdotal information about Universal is incorrect. On the contrary, it's far more controlled at Universal. They know day by day exactly how many people are in their deluxe hotel rooms/potentially using the free Express passes. And they tightly tailor the number of Express passes available for purchase accordingly. Because they're so expensive, it's incredibly rare for Express passes to sell out. But they do occasionally. When they do, it's absolutely possible that the Express waits will be 15-20 minutes, maybe even a touch longer.

BUT, you're not reserving that Express slot. You're not walking around for three hours waiting for a return time and THEN waiting 20 minutes. You're walking up to whatever attraction you want to do whenever you want to do it (except of course, for the handful of new attractions that aren't eligible for Express) and getting into that line--which is more like 5-10 minutes MOST days. Meanwhile, everyone who didn't buy Express sees an incredibly accurate wait time sign when they get in line. Because the number of Express passes sold each day is a knowable quantity, it's far easier for Team Members to learn the rhythm of letting in Express vs. standby and keep both lines moving.

 

[john7994]

This. There are some really good YouTube deep dives into this topic. But what it basically comes down to is that ALL FastPass or Genie does is redistribute the crowd. With physical queues, people are standing in them, one at a time. You're in line for SM OR you're in line for Dumbo OR you're in line for Pirates. With FastPass/Genie, you're "in line" for one ride virtually and ALSO in a physical line for something else. Or you're wandering the streets waiting for your return time and making the pathways more crowded. Disney's idea, of course, was that you would be dining or shopping (spending money) while waiting for your return. But in reality, nobody eats or shops the amount it would take to account for all your virtual wait times, so instead you're pushed into smaller attraction queues, making them far longer than they would normally be. Plus everyone wants to be in a virtual queue for SOMETHING, so they're using FP/Genie for attractions that don't need it, artificially increasing wait times across the board. But the total number of people in the parks doesn't change.


Your anecdotal information about Universal is incorrect. On the contrary, it's far more controlled at Universal. They know day by day exactly how many people are in their deluxe hotel rooms/potentially using the free Express passes. And they tightly tailor the number of Express passes available for purchase accordingly. Because they're so expensive, it's incredibly rare for Express passes to sell out. But they do occasionally. When they do, it's absolutely possible that the Express waits will be 15-20 minutes, maybe even a touch longer.

BUT, you're not reserving that Express slot. You're not walking around for three hours waiting for a return time and THEN waiting 20 minutes. You're walking up to whatever attraction you want to do whenever you want to do it (except of course, for the handful of new attractions that aren't eligible for Express) and getting into that line--which is more like 5-10 minutes MOST days. Meanwhile, everyone who didn't buy Express sees an incredibly accurate wait time sign when they get in line. Because the number of Express passes sold each day is a knowable quantity, it's far easier for Team Members to learn the rhythm of letting in Express vs. standby and keep both lines moving.

Interesting take, I could see the assumptions made being true if everyone was on Genie +, but we know that the take rate is far less (at least from the last earnings call). Regardless, as I don't have the data either, from your insights, would the Universal approach work at Disney?

 

[Disneylover99]

Neither FastPass nor Genie solves a park capacity issue.

I think fast pass did help a great deal with capacity issues. Everyone had access to it and people used different strategies going in. Some booked fp’s for the morning, went early, and left by noon. Some booked early afternoon so they could sleep in and others booked them in the late afternoon/evenings spending more time at the resort during the day. Crowds were more spread out.

Now I feel with Genie, most people are up by 7am and hitting the parks whether they bought Genie or not.

 

[JLTraveling]

Interesting take, I could see the assumptions made being true if everyone was on Genie +, but we know that the take rate is far less (at least from the last earnings call). Regardless, as I don't have the data either, from your insights, would the Universal approach work at Disney?

I'll qualify by saying that I haven't worked for Disney since the paper FP days, and I haven't worked for Universal since around the same time period, so I don't have access to specific data. But from what I hear from friends still working at both, it seems like both systems are working largely the way they always have.

Based on that, and my general knowledge of the system, I feel like it would probably need a few tweaks to work at Disney. For one thing, each system is patented, so I doubt Disney would be allowed to just drop in the Express system as-is. But also, they would probably have to look at the number of Deluxe hotel rooms versus total park capacity and come up with a formula that works....Disney has more parks, but also more Deluxe rooms, and individual park capacities vary. So the exact math that Universal uses probably wouldn't work for Disney. In principle, though, I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Start with the Deluxe hotels and cap it if you need to--maybe at Disney only Concierge level gets the free passes, or it's a perk for booking more than 90 or 120 days out or whatever. Come up with a reliable system for Deluxe properties that also leaves some volume available for the general public to purchase. And when they're gone, they're gone. Price it high like Universal does, and most people will self-select out of the program anyway. But what you're left with is something that offers true value for people staying Deluxe, and a true line-skipping system for those willing to pay to play....along with standby lines that proceed as normal because they're not artificially stuffed with people in an unneeded virtual queue. After some initial howling over the price, everyone's happy, because they can predict what's going to happen and decide to buy or not buy accordingly. Just my opinion.

 

[JLTraveling]

I think fast pass did help a great deal with capacity issues. Everyone had access to it and people used different strategies going in. Some booked fp’s for the morning, went early, and left by noon. Some booked early afternoon so they could sleep in and others booked them in the late afternoon/evenings spending more time at the resort during the day. Crowds were more spread out.

Now I feel with Genie, most people are up by 7am and hitting the parks whether they bought Genie or not.

But before Fast Pass, people used those exact same strategies. Some people were rope droppers. Some closed the parks down at night. Fast Pass didn't magically add capacity just because it allowed people to book Fast Passes during the times they would be in the parks anyway. The same number of people were in the parks at any given time of day, they were just clogging up two queues (the virtual queue for one ride and the standby for another) instead of one.

 

[Disneylover99]

But before Fast Pass, people used those exact same strategies. Some people were rope droppers. Some closed the parks down at night. Fast Pass didn't magically add capacity just because it allowed people to book Fast Passes during the times they would be in the parks anyway. The same number of people were in the parks at any given time of day, they were just clogging up two queues (the virtual queue for one ride and the standby for another) instead of one.

My point is, I think Genie adds to the capacity issues in a way FP or even pre-FP didnt.

 

[john7994]

I'll qualify by saying that I haven't worked for Disney since the paper FP days, and I haven't worked for Universal since around the same time period, so I don't have access to specific data. But from what I hear from friends still working at both, it seems like both systems are working largely the way they always have.

Based on that, and my general knowledge of the system, I feel like it would probably need a few tweaks to work at Disney. For one thing, each system is patented, so I doubt Disney would be allowed to just drop in the Express system as-is. But also, they would probably have to look at the number of Deluxe hotel rooms versus total park capacity and come up with a formula that works....Disney has more parks, but also more Deluxe rooms, and individual park capacities vary. So the exact math that Universal uses probably wouldn't work for Disney. In principle, though, I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Start with the Deluxe hotels and cap it if you need to--maybe at Disney only Concierge level gets the free passes, or it's a perk for booking more than 90 or 120 days out or whatever. Come up with a reliable system for Deluxe properties that also leaves some volume available for the general public to purchase. And when they're gone, they're gone. Price it high like Universal does, and most people will self-select out of the program anyway. But what you're left with is something that offers true value for people staying Deluxe, and a true line-skipping system for those willing to pay to play....along with standby lines that proceed as normal because they're not artificially stuffed with people in an unneeded virtual queue. After some initial howling over the price, everyone's happy, because they can predict what's going to happen and decide to buy or not buy accordingly. Just my opinion.

Selfishly, as a DVC owner and Deluxe stay person, I am all in on that plan. I think there will definitely be some "howling" as you put it! But, I think your overarching view on focusing to a return to value - whatever system is employed - is correct and at least more defensible than present. I think Universal in that regard is on a better track - perhaps they have that advantage based on smaller park footprint and corresponding hotels as you said.

Right now, in the return to normal park operations + revenge travel domestically - its making the Disney approach feel lock a hodge-podge of trying to make everyone happy and not succeeding at all. Throw-in the unfavorable take-aways and inevitable cost recouping (still hate paying for Genie + and forced to do it for every ticket day) - no surprise Universal looks like a genius and the better choice these days.

 

[legler2250]

The only workable solution I have found to contest with the corporate squeeze model of maximizing revenue streams from every available possibility is to change the way I perceive the world around me. The awarenesses of what corporations are attempting to do with every price tag that dangles in front of me can be depressing. It can also act as a reminder of our species ability to simply change the way we perceive the world and how we derive happiness.

Not having kids this philosophical approach is easier than someone with a family and kids who want to actually ride the attractions! Disney is a money trap and difficult to navigate when you have a family =( For me I still see the magic everywhere and Disney brings a level of happiness to my life that I'm sure a lot of you on this board can understand.

 

[fly girl]

Not just my world. Maybe not your world, but your world is an increasingly shrinking place. The views of the American public, according to polling reported by Corporate Wellness magazine (references in the footnotes if you go to the link):

• 87 percent of consumers will purchase a product because a company advocated for an issue they care about. (1)
  ‍
• 92 percent of consumers say they have a more positive image of a company when the company supports a social or environmental issue. (2)
  ‍
• 66 percent of consumers are willing to pay extra for products and services that come from companies committed to positive social and environmental impact. (3)

https://www.corporatewellnessmagazi...e-social-responsibility-connects-us-consumers

If we have learned anything in the last 5 years is that polls are not accurate. People tell you what they think you want to hear. And do we even know how many people they researched? Demographics? Age? Personally, this poll means nothing to me.

I am not buying something based on what a company advocates. Do they really advocate it? Or are they just trying to appease to the masses to look good? (My guess is the latter. All a business truly cares about is money. They will do a dance to make you think they care. It is all about the bottom line.)

I do not want businesses to get involved in social issues. Stay in your lane is my feeling. I don't need messaging from who I buy soap or shoes from. I can form my own opinion, I just don't want it. YMMV. Unless you are advocating something rotten (a la Hitler) if I like your product I am going to keep buying it. I am fine with opposing views, that is what makes the world go around.

The last one I will say I agree with - and it is funny as it the the smallest percentage. I like to see companies that take efforts to be environmentally friendly and not be ridiculously wasteful. What we see and what we don't is probably night and day, but I'll take any effort versus no effort.

After all that, I still think people are going to keep buying products they like, or are the most economical regardless of a companies stance on social issues.

For the record. Most theme parks have had some kind of skip the line program for years. Universal and 6 flags all do and they cost more than $20.

It costs more than $20 but you don't have to work a ridiciuouls app to try and get a time for a ride. The cost of Express Pass, Fast Lane, etc is worth it because it is simple, user friendly, and it works! You actually get to ride all the rides multiple times if you chose too.

G+ can be purchased by every person holding a ticket. It is not user friendly nor easy to use. You have to jump through hoops to get a time slot and only 1 per ride! And good luck getting a slot for the popular rides, they are gone within 20 minutes.

IMHO these cannot be compared as one is vastly superior to the other.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Doesn't Universal also offer "front of the line" passes for people who stay in their moderate to deluxe resorts? Or is it all resorts? I know they've offered that for years, just not sure where they stand now.

I do remember purchasing front of the line access for my kids when we went to Universal many years ago. Price was variable based on crowds and I paid an uncomfortable amount for it but we only had one day, I had already gotten discounted military tickets so I justified it that way.

They do (it's the top 3), they don't however have different extra hours based on where you stay. Staying on property entitles you to morning hours early regardless of where you stay. They don't have evening hours for hotel guests. There's probably different conversations going on. I don't think though people have an issue with faster way to get in line, as of right now that's not separated out based on what level. The conversation really got started when it was about a removal of evening hours for all and given only to Deluxe, not quite a tit for tat comparison.

As far as EP included for the Premier it's all guests staying in the room and for check in thru check out. It's not a per day charge. 1 night=2 days

 

[Christine]

They do (it's the top 3), they don't however have different extra hours based on where you stay. Staying on property entitles you to morning hours early regardless of where you stay. They don't have evening hours for hotel guests. There's probably different conversations going on. I don't think though people have an issue with faster way to get in line, as of right now that's not separated out based on what level. The conversation really got started when it was about a removal of evening hours for all and given only to Deluxe, not quite a tit for tat comparison.

As far as EP included for the Premier it's all guests staying in the room and for check in thru check out. It's not a per day charge. 1 night=2 days

My comment spun of of adding extra "value" for people staying on site--specifically Deluxe resorts. So, Universal does that with the passes. Nothing else.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It costs more than $20 but you don't have to work a ridiciuouls app to try and get a time for a ride. The cost of Express Pass, Fast Lane, etc is worth it because it is simple, user friendly, and it works! You actually get to ride all the rides multiple times if you chose too.

G+ can be purchased by every person holding a ticket. It is not user friendly nor easy to use. You have to jump through hoops to get a time slot and only 1 per ride! And good luck getting a slot for the popular rides, they are gone within 20 minutes.

IMHO these cannot be compared as one is vastly superior to the other.

Our experience without EP at Universal is already leagues above our experience in 2 hours at Disney without Genie+. Truly no comparison.

Our experience with EP was an equitable situation. For example Flight of the Hippogriff for a time was 2 trains EP, then 1 train Standby. Then it eventually switched to 1 train EP, 1 train Standby. Our experience with Navi just now mirrors our experience in 2019 at DL: 2 people (serious not a joke) Standby hoards from LL, 2 people Standby hoards of LL. I miss the relaxation already of Universal and I'm only on day 1 of Disney.

 

[DCLMP]

My understanding (nothing but anecdotal) from a Universal approach on line skipping passes is that those lines also tend to be longer to wait in due to the volume of eligible people skipping - so what might be a walk-on or 5 mins in a LL at Disney may be 15-20 mins at Universal. This would be proportional to those staying at premier hotels or buying the pass on a day to day basis (don't know if they limit it). I suppose its manageable to make more people eligible/wait in a LL line with Genie +, but I can almost hear the screaming now!

Presumably and I don't know this for certain, this is why park reservations at Disney may be here longer than many would like to see. But to your point about no scheme working for everyone, this attempt at "throttling" is also deeply unpopular as well - so they really can't win.

The express lane has been walk-on during my visits. Buying an express pass for a family of four would be over 400 a day which could be more than a night at one of the deluxe resorts. There are only three deluxe so it's very limited. AP discounts have been scarce at Universal thus far this year, but I did manage to book a room at Portofino for 385.00 a night with my Amex platinum benefits. It includes 200 off the total stay, free breakfast every morning, a room upgrade, and a 100 dinner credit. A much better deal than I could find anywhere on Disney property.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Universal looks like a genius and the better choice these days

I don't think it's "these days" Universal's EP has typically been seen as above Disney's programs. With Universal you know what you're getting either a once through or Unlimited depending on what you purchase, if you're an AP or what hotel you're staying at. Disney has just always been throw a dart up there and see what you may get. Universal doesn't really overpromise on waits even with EP, Disney's is not that way at all. Universal waits to add EP to their newest very high demand rides, Disney adds it immediately. Want to ride VeliciCoaster? Go for it the wait is there. Want to ride Guardians? Sorry you'll have to hope you get in the virtual queue AND your number is called OR pay for LL. There's less merge points at Universal with the queues being more separated out from EP to Standby although I'll give Disney a pass there they were built largely long before Universal. And so on.

The difference on viewpoint largely IME seems to be who is largely going to Universal and who is largely going to Disney as far as type of traveling groups.

 

[DCLMP]

Our experience without EP at Universal is already leagues above our experience in 2 hours at Disney without Genie+. Truly no comparison.

Our experience with EP was an equitable situation. For example Flight of the Hippogriff for a time was 2 trains EP, then 1 train Standby. Then it eventually switched to 1 train EP, 1 train Standby. Our experience with Navi just now mirrors our experience in 2019 at DL: 2 people (serious not a joke) Standby hoards from LL, 2 people Standby hoards of LL. I miss the relaxation already of Universal and I'm only on day 1 of Disney.

Genie plus worked really well at Disneyland. It's more of a local's park and locals won't buy it. Have you been to DL? I find it to be a similar experience to Universal as far as an easy vacation.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Genie plus worked really well at Disneyland. It's more of a local's park and locals won't buy it. Have you been to DL? I find it to be a similar experience to Universal as far as an easy vacation.

Yeah we went twice in 2019 with MP. Hated how you felt like you had to buy MP just to get anything done. TSMM they'd let 4 or 5 people from the standby and then hoards from FP (not exaggerating and I spoke about it in 2019 on the Boards) That's what I meant by Disney and prioritizing. It's not a new thing. Disney got people used to low waits with FP so now they expect it and Disney responds by building their product around that.

That said it does seem like Genie+ works better at DL than WDW but the rules slightly differ too.

Honestly my husband and I don't mind waiting in lines, I'm not griping about waiting in general.

 

[john7994]

I don't think it's "these days" Universal's EP has typically been seen as above Disney's programs. With Universal you know what you're getting either a once through or Unlimited depending on what you purchase, if you're an AP or what hotel you're staying at. Disney has just always been throw a dart up there and see what you may get. Universal doesn't really overpromise on waits even with EP, Disney's is not that way at all. Universal waits to add EP to their newest very high demand rides, Disney adds it immediately. Want to ride VeliciCoaster? Go for it the wait is there. Want to ride Guardians? Sorry you'll have to hope you get in the virtual queue AND your number is called OR pay for LL. There's less merge points at Universal with the queues being more separated out from EP to Standby although I'll give Disney a pass there they were built largely long before Universal. And so on.

The difference on viewpoint largely IME seems to be who is largely going to Universal and who is largely going to Disney as far as type of traveling groups.

Haha ... Of course EP is seen as a superior experience (these days) because that option is possible! Universal is smartly taking advantage due to the scale in parks / attendance / design eras. This has consistently been the case competitively between the parks and they grift off each other. For Disney, it was a nice problem to have in packing hotels and parks - until its not. Rinse and repeat. We have seen this movie before when Universal added a perk or a second park and the sky was falling for Disney - and then it didn't.

Bring on the competition! Loved the Harry Potter approach, theming and IP coming to life along with some cool rides to go with it - Universal is finally getting it and nice to see. I hope Epic is a smash success.. More choice for the consumer, and if Disney doesn't get it right - they lose. Personally, I love dabbling at both parks and enjoy having the choice to do so - why else am I going to central Florida other than to be entertained? (no offense locals - but its hot and humid down there).

To be fair in comparison to established rides and rhythms, GoTG isn't even officially open yet and just throwing it into the mix with a potential 4 hour line wrapping half-way across the park isn't a desirable experience for anyone - especially as its new - it will likely have technical issues. What would you propose instead?