Major Policy Change in DVC/DCL Trade Policy UPDATE ON POST #193

[ellenmiele]

I think there are possibly different stories because there are actually three different groups of people affected -- those trying to make new cruise reservations, those trying to change dates on existing reservations, and those trying to convert existing cash reservations to points.

Just curious as to the reason so many people seem to be in the third situation - have cash reservation that they want to convert to points. What is (or was) the advantage to doing this? I didn't even know you could do it -- since you can't do it with DVC resorts -- but now that I know it's possible I'm quite curious as to why would you? Why not just book with points right from the start?

 

[danandnan]

I just got off the phone with member services- leadership team. According to DVC they have decided as of last night to let those of us who already have a cash reservation and want to pay off with points will be allowed to. They are going to have a ms person call me back when this is done. He said it should be today or tomorrow!! I guess very one screaming helped!!

So I suggest every one who needs a cruise paid off send that email. Once again the squeaky wheel!!

I will let you know when I hear back that this is done.

DVC explained it's all a cash flow issue. DCL is not getting enough cash reservations.

I also called took Joanne advice now we all will be going

 

[CarolAnnC]

Question #2 - How did you run out all of a sudden for every cruise and how does the wait list work?
The reason they all ran out at once is that DVC/DCL does not limit how many people can cruise on points on individual cruises. It is an overall threshold of cruises that can be done, not based on individual cruise dates. So once the threshold of "total" cruises was met, that meant there were no more cruises that could be booked. This also means that for those of you that are on a wait list, you don't have to wait until someone cancels on your particular cruise, you just need someone to cancel ANY cruise, then they make that slot available to whoever is next in line. I am sure there may be some limitations (3- day cancelled replaced by 3-day only, not a 7-day, etc), but does sound a little hopeful for those who are on a list.

Thanks for sharing. I had heard this explanation from someone else, too, but have never heard of before last week. Perhaps they never spoke of this limitation since they did not approach it. My only question to them is why did they often "run out" of availability in the past on particular cruises. More than once I would call to make the reservation and find a particular category may be available for cash, but would be "sold out" for DVC Member booking. We were always told that there was a set amount for DVC bookings as far as dates and categories but they could book up and sometimes did. This would lead me to believe that at some point they must have revised the way they look at DVC and a "threshold" for bookings.

They need to realize that with many more new Members buying in every day, and also with a 3rd ship next year, and eventually a 4th, these "limitations" for a fixed number of cruise slots for DVC must be increased. The new ship the Dream is larger than the Magic/Wonder and will accommodate many more passengers. That would be a good thing I would think, since therre obviously are more and more Members who want to book. If they don't up the allotment, if it is a fixed number instead of a percent as you indicate, then this meeting the quota and filling up will be something that we will deal with every year.

I am still hopeful that DVC will be able to find a solution, and as I've said before even offering another cruise line in addition (such as they did before) would help with the demand.

 

[Petraman]

Thanks for sharing. I had heard this explanation from someone else, too, but have never heard of before last week. Perhaps they never spoke of this limitation since they did not approach it. My only question to them is why did they often "run out" of availability in the past on particular cruises. More than once I would call to make the reservation and find a particular category may be available for cash, but would be "sold out" for DVC Member booking. We were always told that there was a set amount for DVC bookings as far as dates and categories but they could book up and sometimes did. This would lead me to believe that at some point they must have revised the way they look at DVC and a "threshold" for bookings.
They need to realize that with many more new Members buying in every day, and also with a 3rd ship next year, and eventually a 4th, these "limitations" for a fixed number of cruise slots for DVC must be increased. The new ship the Dream is larger than the Magic/Wonder and will accommodate many more passengers. That would be a good thing I would think, since therre obviously are more and more Members who want to book. If they don't up the allotment, if it is a fixed number instead of a percent as you indicate, then this meeting the quota and filling up will be something that we will deal with every year.

I am still hopeful that DVC will be able to find a solution, and as I've said before even offering another cruise line in addition (such as they did before) would help with the demand.

You know, I totally forgot to ask specifically about this scenario which does pop up. I have a sneaky feeling that with that particualr scenario, it may be a DVC policy to limit # on the individual cruises, where the "overall threshold" is more of a DVC policy, since they want to control how many points they have to convert into cash ressies...

I hope you read my pp with my bookeeper illustration. I understand that not every CM can/should know ALL the policies, but when something like this breaks, it's time to come clean. instead of hiding the truth until somebody complains. Hey DVC.... we have a member site that the home page says "Latest News"... which has been filled with the same old info for months! I think this qualifies as "Latest News", how about posting some basic info, even if you simply say "due to high demand, you will not be able to book any new cruises with points until Oct 2011".
A little help here Disney!

 

[Brian Noble]

I bet it's a question of when the "public" cruise fare rises above a certain level for that stateroom.

 

[Cmbar]

Has anyone asked if the "free" cruises that have been given by DVC for those buying into DVC have any bearing on the DVC Point/Cabin limits being mentions? I sure wouldn't like to see another promotion coming out with free cruises to those that buy or add on if these take away from member's availability.

 

[Dean]

Isn't booking on points technically 'more expensive' than booking in cash anyways? Perhaps this was partially done to cut calls into Member Services and reduce are dues (or at least keep them in check).

I doubt using points for cruises reduces calls, overall, I suspect it actually increases them due to the variables with cruising and investigations that one must do. It likely does affect availability for direct points reservations but only to a modest degree.

I'm guessing that the fee they charge to use your points for DCL more than cover any additional costs incurred by MS.

Reportedly the cash equivalent exchanges are a zero sum situation offered as a service. CRO is apparently the only one to profit due to their rental commission.

However, the MS Leadership Team member I talked to was quite specific that there had not been any change of policy at all.

There may have been no change in policy but if that's true, there's been a change in the enforcement or implementation of that policy.

Their thinking is if they book too many cash rooms from points, then ressies become even more difficult for DVC members to be able to book when they want to use the WDW resorts, so they try to limit how many cash ressies.

You're being patronized. Exchanges have little overall affect on DVC availability and if anything, these type of exchanges increase availability as long as DVD doesn't cherry pick for rentals which they generally have not done from what I can tell.

Just curious as to the reason so many people seem to be in the third situation - have cash reservation that they want to convert to points. What is (or was) the advantage to doing this? I didn't even know you could do it -- since you can't do it with DVC resorts -- but now that I know it's possible I'm quite curious as to why would you? Why not just book with points right from the start?

There are several advantages including that you'd have a large number of points tied up and/or you'd have to pay any cash options in full when you reserve if using points and cash together.

Has anyone asked if the "free" cruises that have been given by DVC for those buying into DVC have any bearing on the DVC Point/Cabin limits being mentions? I sure wouldn't like to see another promotion coming out with free cruises to those that buy or add on if these take away from member's availability.

I think you can assume they do count and that you'll likely get the answer that they do not.


Look for a higher cruise points chart next time around.

 

[JimMIA]

Has anyone asked if the "free" cruises that have been given by DVC for those buying into DVC have any bearing on the DVC Point/Cabin limits being mentions? I sure wouldn't like to see another promotion coming out with free cruises to those that buy or add on if these take away from member's availability.

Yes, several of us asked that question and promotional cruises do NOT come out of member inventory. I assume they are just purchased by DVD and accounted for as any other cost of sales.

 

[CarolMN]

....(snip).....They need to realize that with many more new Members buying in every day, and also with a 3rd ship next year, and eventually a 4th, these "limitations" for a fixed number of cruise slots for DVC must be increased. The new ship the Dream is larger than the Magic/Wonder and will accommodate many more passengers. That would be a good thing I would think, since there obviously are more and more Members who want to book. If they don't up the allotment, if it is a fixed number instead of a percent as you indicate, then this meeting the quota and filling up will be something that we will deal with every year.

I do not think anything will be done to "up the allotment" to DVC members until CRO is able to rent most of the DVC rooms without the need for such deep discounts. I really think Disney is absorbing the losses in this area and so I agree with Dean - the charts for 2012 cruises will show some significant increases.

I am still hopeful that DVC will be able to find a solution, and as I've said before even offering another cruise line in addition (such as they did before) would help with the demand.

Me, too. But I think we will have to wait for the economy to improve and for people to be "weaned off" discounted resort rooms, before anything changes.

 

[cindy18]

Just wanted to update that I followed Joanne's advice and sent a second email yesterday Thursday, following up on the email I sent Tuesday morning. In it, I specifically mentioned the discussion on the boards and the two men whose names Joanne had mentioned as having been particularly helpful. I reminded them that all of our 2011 vacations will be spent cruising with DCL and we have banked current year use points to use next year for those cruises. In other words, we have no opportunity to use the points other than on a cruise.

This afternoon, I got a call from one of the two men Joanne mentioned (I am not naming him because someone posted that there is sensitivity about doing that). He was very nice and obviously was calling to fix things (my first email was very angry). He reiterated the point that has been made above, that there was no policy change, just that the room inventory filled up. I pointed out that it was a very long period of time to become unavailable all of a sudden, and he had no response to that. He asked me several questions about my booking history (when had I booked, how, etc) and said that they were trying to get a sense about demand to see if they could increase inventory from DCL going forward.

Bottom line is that they are going to let me use points for the reservations I have. At a minimum, they will let me use all the points that are going to expire next year, but I got the feeling that if I wanted to use next year's points as well, I would be able to. I am going to get a call from DVC within the next few days to switch over the reservations.

So I guess the message is that following Joanne's advice works, if you keep at it, and it does seem that if you already had a reservation, they would let you convert it to points.

 

[JimMIA]

One thing I think we all need to remember is that - especially in threads like this -- there are always at least two sides to a story.

From what I've been able to piece together, from direct conversations with the DVC folks in charge of this and clarified by direct conversations other DISers have had with the DVC folks in charge (Petraman's info is particularly helpful), I think the DVC explanation makes a lot more sense that all the evil conspiracy theories and speculation.

It's fun to speculate sometimes (navel-gazing, as Brian calls it), and anyone can say, "Oh, well I don't believe that! I think they're out to get us."

But when you look at the specifics of what the DVC Leadership Team people say, and the details of what happened, how it happened, and the actual actions DVC took to provide whatever resolution they could, I think those actual known facts show a clearer picture. The lowly NO policy change/simple availability problem explanation makes sense. Each component of actual events (not speculation, but real, verified events) is consistent with DVC's explanation of the problem.

And not for nuthin', this is not the first time this has happened. They ran out of inventory before (I think in 2004) for a 4-month period. It's not like this is a one-time event...it's not unique.

There have been situations where I do not believe DVC management -- Jim Lewis, in particular.

I don't think the banking deadlines and 4-month rule were really implemented to provide "...streamlining to enhance the membership experience based on owner input." That's a lie, IMHO.

I don't think the elimination of the free valet parking perk was done to make DVC a better experience for members (although owners at those resorts who never used valet benefited).

I don't believe transfers were limited to one per year for our benefit -- that was done to benefit CRO.

There is a lot of stuff I don't believe from DVC management. But the reason I don't believe them is not that the information comes from DVC management. It's because it's at odds with the known facts, or it simply defies logic.

But I have to say, their explanation of this situation (and I'm sure there is a back-story to this as well) rings true to this cynical, skeptical old cop. I tend to ignore the noise and look for evidence and consistency...and all that stuff points to an availability problem.

As my friend Carol MN would say: YMMV.

 

[Mineu]

Has anyone noticed that all of the success stories are coming from emails to the leadership team? Just wondering if anyone has actually converted their reservation and paid the $95 transaction fee since this whole thing started. My situation is still being "researched" and I was told it would NOT be a good idea to purchase my flights yet...

 

[JimMIA]

Has anyone noticed that all of the success stories are coming from emails to the leadership team? Just wondering if anyone has actually converted their reservation and paid the $95 transaction fee since this whole thing started. My situation is still being "researched" and I was told it would NOT be a good idea to purchase my flights yet...

Yes. If you read the posts, including Cindy18's directly above, others have been successful. I believe there have been 4-5 successes including CarolAnn's...probably more that have not been reported.

Did you ever call the person I suggested you call?

 

[Mineu]

Yes. If you read the posts, including Cindy18's directly above, others have been successful. I believe there have been 4-5 successes including CarolAnn's...probably more that have not been reported.

Did you ever call the person I suggested you call?

No, I'm trying to be patient and wait for the supervisor that is researching my problem to call me back. Apparently, the 11B is still not in the system-which is why I was unable to book prior to last Friday. I don't want to become a pest-but, I had called in twice to book only to find the 11B was still not in the system and then last Friday's "cruisegate" happened-so will not feel safe until I have the $95 fee charged on my card and a DVC confirmation in hand...

 

[JimMIA]

No, I'm trying to be patient and wait for the supervisor that is researching my problem to call me back. Apparently, the 11B is still not in the system-which is why I was unable to book prior to last Friday. I don't want to become a pest-but, I had called in twice to book only to find the 11B was still not in the system and then last Friday's "cruisegate" happened-so will not feel safe until I have the $95 fee charged on my card and a DVC confirmation in hand...

Okay, it seems to me that whatever research they needed to do should have been done by now. I don't think anyone would consider you a "pest" if you call them again.

If your next call fails, call that person everyone has recommended because he seems to be the one behind everyone else's successes.

None of us have the "inside scoop" on what's going on, but it makes sense to me that there is a limit on both availability and the amount of time they're gonna spend on this. This issue is not going to be some Disney employee's life work.

I'd hate to see you get told, "Gosh, I wish you'd called us earlier." You're not a "pest," you're a customer!

 

[Mineu]

I know-that's what is worrying me-the agent I spoke to today said she called the supervisor who said that she was still working on it and would call me back-I would have felt better if that had been reflected in the notes. At this point I'm willing to pay for the 11A if that is in the system-but keep my 11B cabin since we have side by side sideways cabins in a good area. Usually Disney planning is fun-this has not been fun!

 

[DebbieB]

Me, too. But I think we will have to wait for the economy to improve and for people to be "weaned off" discounted resort rooms, before anything changes.

I think it will take some major weaning. If you read the resort boards, people now expect deep discounts or free dining. There's also a major tilt towards the value & moderate resorts, which has resulted in Disney offering OKW & SSR as free upgrades to have more value or moderate rooms to sell. It's very difficult for them to rent the DVC resorts, resulting in 40%-45% discounts. They just can't get the return to pay for the trades outs from DVC.

 

[Petraman]

EDITED.... They need to realize that with many more new Members buying in every day, and also with a 3rd ship next year, and eventually a 4th, these "limitations" for a fixed number of cruise slots for DVC must be increased. The new ship the Dream is larger than the Magic/Wonder and will accommodate many more passengers. That would be a good thing I would think, since therre obviously are more and more Members who want to book. If they don't up the allotment, if it is a fixed number instead of a percent as you indicate, then this meeting the quota and filling up will be something that we will deal with every year....

This totally makes sense when you thik of it from the perspective of using points for DCL. Unfotrunately, based on what was described to me, I have a feeling we won't see an increase of DVC point rentals based on the increase of DCL rooms. The problem comes back to DVC and their need to liquidate the points we give them for cruises. They must use those points for DVC to book cash ressies at DVC resorts only, not just any resort at WDW. So by renting out more cash rooms, it gets tougher for the DVC owners to get ressies at the resorts they want at WDW... suddenly 7month bookings for BCV can become even harder because more rooms were sold for cash to liquidate the points that DVC had to buy from us in trade for a cruise.

So it would seem, there would need to be an increase of actual DVC resort rooms as well to help keep their little formula in check.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, because I don't see any way this was just a one time glitch. I get the feeling the future will see more and more people using points to cruise with. I don't think they would ever eliminate the perk, but it clearly means we will have to be more proactive in the future, just like we are now when we want to go to WDW at Christmas, etc. May have to book your cruise 2 years in advance

 

[Dean]

They need to realize that with many more new Members buying in every day, and also with a 3rd ship next year, and eventually a 4th, these "limitations" for a fixed number of cruise slots for DVC must be increased. The new ship the Dream is larger than the Magic/Wonder and will accommodate many more passengers. That would be a good thing I would think, since therre obviously are more and more Members who want to book. If they don't up the allotment, if it is a fixed number instead of a percent as you indicate, then this meeting the quota and filling up will be something that we will deal with every year.

Given the limitations of how they convert points to cash, I'd expect less options going forward, not more. DVD can't afford to take in more points than they can feasibly convert to cash, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread to start with.

 

[CarolAnnC]

Okay, it seems to me that whatever research they needed to do should have been done by now. I don't think anyone would consider you a "pest" if you call them again.

If your next call fails, call that person everyone has recommended because he seems to be the one behind everyone else's successes.

None of us have the "inside scoop" on what's going on, but it makes sense to me that there is a limit on both availability and the amount of time they're gonna spend on this. This issue is not going to be some Disney employee's life work.

I'd hate to see you get told, "Gosh, I wish you'd called us earlier." You're not a "pest," you're a customer!

I totally agree with Jim here and would definitely take his advice.

This totally makes sense when you thik of it from the perspective of using points for DCL. Unfotrunately, based on what was described to me, I have a feeling we won't see an increase of DVC point rentals based on the increase of DCL rooms. The problem comes back to DVC and their need to liquidate the points we give them for cruises. They must use those points for DVC to book cash ressies at DVC resorts only, not just any resort at WDW. So by renting out more cash rooms, it gets tougher for the DVC owners to get ressies at the resorts they want at WDW... suddenly 7month bookings for BCV can become even harder because more rooms were sold for cash to liquidate the points that DVC had to buy from us in trade for a cruise.

So it would seem, there would need to be an increase of actual DVC resort rooms as well to help keep their little formula in check.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, because I don't see any way this was just a one time glitch. I get the feeling the future will see more and more people using points to cruise with. I don't think they would ever eliminate the perk, but it clearly means we will have to be more proactive in the future, just like we are now when we want to go to WDW at Christmas, etc. May have to book your cruise 2 years in advance

Also, then the problem is not going to just be with booking DCL cruises. The problem will be no matter where Members are trading out to. Why will it be any different for points being traded out to ABD, RCI, etc., if ultimately the payback will come from CRO renting out the DVC rooms?

Does this mean DVC will have to limit the number of points that Members can trade out anywhere each year? If so, that will mean more and more Members will need to be using their points at the DVC Resorts, and hence will mean even more difficult availability booking those.