LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

[tweak89]

I guess I just don't get why one side feels the need to tell the other that they are wrong?

This thread seems to be the most civil of all of them I have read, and I enjoy reading the different opinions (good and bad) but hated seeing the other threads devolve into an argument between a few posters.

Like I said in another post, if I come back from my March trip having accomplished LESS than my previous trips, then it will be a failure for ME regardless of anyone's experience/opinion.

Also, in checking the Lines App for FP+ availability, they show NONE at any parks. If that's not a glitch of some sort, I have NEVER seen ALL fast passes gone by 4pm at ANY park under the old system.

 

[SmithSmith]

I guess whether they've gone up or down in either park is one of those rabbit hole's another poster was talking about, because that wasn't the original point of showing them.



NOW we're on the same track - I agree the wait times at MK are not what I would expect to see on a "2" day but don't think the wait times at Epcot representative of a "2" day either.

And I'm not looking for another debate as to whether or not FP+ is responsible for that, so I'll simply defer to EasyWDW for an opinion:

"The website had an extended analysis of how FastPass+ is affecting wait times all the way back in March of last year. The post would be nearly identical if it was written today with the same trends we’ve discussed over the last year continuing. FastPass+ continues to push up wait times at historically secondary attractions, particularly the ones that didn’t previously offer FASTPASS, while at the same time decreasing waits at headlining attractions that have historically seen the longest waits. That is not a debatable statement.".

I'm a big fan of Josh and his work but I do think there should be a minor tweak to his statement:

Fastpass+ continues to push up wait times DURING PEAK HOURS at historically secondary attractions...

I think this important to note because I don't want anyone getting the impression that these attractions see long waits at all times of the day. That would be simply untrue.

I also think his last thought doesn't get stressed enough. Headliner attractions are seeing shorter waits under FP+. Which I think is a great advantage. I remember showing up at Hollywood Studios on a beautiful september afternoon with my FP+ for ToT, and it wasn't really even necassary. ToT only had a 10 minute wait at 4 in the afternoon!

 

[MrInfinity]

Isn't it obvious? We just can't help ourselves!

I'm guilty, I keep posting on these type of threads even though I know it's rather pointless.

Nod. It's interesting to me. So I post. I think there are untapped aspects of FP+, and a lot of frustration that can maybe be alleviated with the help of others.

I've certainly learned a lot. Heck just in this thread alone, I learned the 2-hour thing on FP-. Amazing I was able to get on so much in the past w/o knowing this little caveat.

 

[SeanTomorrow]

I guess I just don't get why one side feels the need to tell the other that they are wrong?

 

[SmithSmith]

I guess I just don't get why one side feels the need to tell the other that they are wrong?

This thread seems to be the most civil of all of them I have read, and I enjoy reading the different opinions (good and bad) but hated seeing the other threads devolve into an argument between a few posters.

Like I said in another post, if I come back from my March trip having accomplished LESS than my previous trips, then it will be a failure for ME regardless of anyone's experience/opinion.

Also, in checking the Lines App for FP+ availability, they show NONE at any parks. If that's not a glitch of some sort, I have NEVER seen ALL fast passes gone by 4pm at ANY park under the old system.

I noticed that too, and found it highly suspect. I wonder what's going on....

 

[SmithSmith]

I would invite anyone who is interested to look not just at easywdw's summary of the situation (quoted above), but the more detailed discussion from last March referred to in that post.

Here is the article in which the comment quoted above was included:

http://www.easywdw.com/uncategorize...uary-disney-finds-a-sponsor-12015/#more-15058

and the link to the extended analysis from last March:

http://www.easywdw.com/uncategorize...cting-wait-times-at-disney-world-attractions/

The issue is not whether wait times are longer at some attractions, because that seems indisputable, but by HOW MUCH they have increased at those attractions.

If you want to cite easywdw as a reliable source, then I think you have to take its entire analysis. For example, Josh said in December that average wait times at Pirates of the Caribbean are up 30% and average peak wait times are up 50%.

We all have to decide for ourselves how much an increase of a posted wait time from 10 minutes to 20 minutes or from 30 minutes to 45 minutes is going to bother us. Maybe it means that we have to alter our touring approach to avoid certain attractions when their wait times are at their peaks.

There have been many times where I've compared wait times (at secondary attractions) from 2014 to 2012 and found some of these "bumps" to be only 5 minutes. There have also been peak waits higher in 2012 than 2014!

 

[SmithSmith]

Love this! So true!

 

[Jennasis]

I guess I just don't get why one side feels the need to tell the other that they are wrong?

This thread seems to be the most civil of all of them I have read, and I enjoy reading the different opinions (good and bad) but hated seeing the other threads devolve into an argument between a few posters.

Like I said in another post, if I come back from my March trip having accomplished LESS than my previous trips, then it will be a failure for ME regardless of anyone's experience/opinion.

Also, in checking the Lines App for FP+ availability, they show NONE at any parks. If that's not a glitch of some sort, I have NEVER seen ALL fast passes gone by 4pm at ANY park under the old system.

The funny part is that it's the same people posting in this thread as the less-than-civil ones.

It's a mid-winter miracle!

 

[MrInfinity]

There have been many times where I've compared wait times (at secondary attractions) from 2014 to 2012 and found some of these "bumps" to be only 5 minutes. There have also been peak waits higher in 2012 than 2014!

Just comes down to... wait times are situational. Right?

One day it'll rain, afterwards the rides will be open but wait times will be minimal. On the first sunny day after 3 rainy days, we could expect everyone is trying to finally get on some rides, and lines might be longer. If we compared that day to the same day the following year, we might conclude waits went down. Or say they were because that was an EMH day so the parks were busier when really it was cuz it was the first sunny day. It's just hard to tell.

What the wait charts can do is provide generalizations... like... in general, HM tends to have waits build up around 12, and you can draw conclusions like people are riding headliners early, but then hitting secondaries after their headliners causing a buildup.

This kind of data is incredibly valuable. To know what sorts of crowds are going where, when... how heavily to staff them, when to add extra cars to a track, where people are eating, what times, etc.

Man if only there was like a band or something, that Disney could put on every person's wrist, and track their progress throughout a day. You'd think that would make them billions. I mean... it would be big. They should invent that.

 

[SmithSmith]

Just comes down to... wait times are situational. Right?

One day it'll rain, afterwards the rides will be open but wait times will be minimal. On the first sunny day after 3 rainy days, we could expect everyone is trying to finally get on some rides, and lines might be longer. If we compared that day to the same day the following year, we might conclude waits went down. Or say they were because that was an EMH day so the parks were busier when really it was cuz it was the first sunny day. It's just hard to tell.

What the wait charts can do is provide generalizations... like... in general, HM tends to have waits build up around 12, and you can draw conclusions like people are riding headliners early, but then hitting secondaries after their headliners causing a buildup.

This kind of data is incredibly valuable. To know what sorts of crowds are going where, when... how heavily to staff them, when to add extra cars to a track, where people are eating, what times, etc.

Man if only there was like a band or something, that Disney could put on every person's wrist, and track their progress throughout a day. You'd think that would make them billions. I mean... it would be big. They should invent that.

I agree, it's situational. For the record, I did try to screen for strange weather patterns while comparing wait times.

 

[Laketravis]

We all have to decide for ourselves how much an increase of a posted wait time from 10 minutes to 20 minutes or from 30 minutes to 45 minutes is going to bother us. Maybe it means that we have to alter our touring approach to avoid certain attractions when their wait times are at their peaks.

Indeed, Josh's comments from last week might prove helpful in that regard and in context with the data:

"Back to a busy evening on the 20th where Tomorrowland Speedway has a whopping 50 minute wait at 5:45pm. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that many switchbacks in use."

"FastPass+ lines at Buzz Lightyear’s Space Ranger Spin have gotten so long that Disney built a permanent extended queue behind the shuttered FastPass+ kiosks."

"Extended queues at PeopleMover are a daily occurrence. Subtract two years and it would be unheard of this time of year."

 

[wisblue]

Indeed, Josh's comments from last week might prove helpful in that regard and in context with the data:

"Back to a busy evening on the 20th where Tomorrowland Speedway has a whopping 50 minute wait at 5:45pm. I don’t think I’ve ever seen that many switchbacks in use."

"FastPass+ lines at Buzz Lightyear’s Space Ranger Spin have gotten so long that Disney built a permanent extended queue behind the shuttered FastPass+ kiosks."

"Extended queues at PeopleMover are a daily occurrence. Subtract two years and it would be unheard of this time of year."

Again, I invite anyone to look at the whole article, including the pictures that accompany it, and the study from last March.

It was discussed on another thread that the line at the Peoplemover has been changed sometime in the last couple of years to hold more people at the bottom of the ramp to avoid having them stack up at the top. So, a line of 20-30 people at the bottom of the ramp (as shown in that picture) is no longer unusual.

Anyone who reads the whole article will also see that Josh refers to how Brazilian tour groups have contributed to higher overall crowds at this time of year.

 

[kittyab]

I love it. I just wish I could have 5 a day not 3.

 

[Angel Ariel]

It sure doesn't seem like either group will ever see the other's point of view so why go back and forth for page after page arguing with each other on it?

FWIW, I do see the other group's POV. Having a discussion and continuing to disagree doesn't mean I don't understand their POV. I see it, I get it. I don't have a problem with it, nor am I attempting to change anyone's mind.

 

[Shaden]

I would invite anyone who is interested to look not just at easywdw's summary of the situation (quoted above), but the more detailed discussion from last March referred to in that post.

Here is the article in which the comment quoted above was included:

http://www.easywdw.com/uncategorize...uary-disney-finds-a-sponsor-12015/#more-15058

and the link to the extended analysis from last March:

http://www.easywdw.com/uncategorize...cting-wait-times-at-disney-world-attractions/

The issue is not whether wait times are longer at some attractions, because that seems indisputable, but by HOW MUCH they have increased at those attractions.

If you want to cite easywdw as a reliable source, then I think you have to take its entire analysis. For example, Josh said in December that average wait times at Pirates of the Caribbean are up 30% and average peak wait times are up 50%.

We all have to decide for ourselves how much an increase of a posted wait time from 10 minutes to 20 minutes or from 30 minutes to 45 minutes is going to bother us. Maybe it means that we have to alter our touring approach to avoid certain attractions when their wait times are at their peaks.

I really wish they would do another detailed analysis like they did in March.

March was before Disney had engage in the big Advertising push for FP+, and before offsite guests were able to pre-book as well. Would be interesting to see what the detailed data would say today, though he says the "trend" would be the same, it would be cool to have some new numbers.

 

[Shaden]

I'm a big fan of Josh and his work but I do think there should be a minor tweak to his statement:

Fastpass+ continues to push up wait times DURING PEAK HOURS at historically secondary attractions...

I think this important to note because I don't want anyone getting the impression that these attractions see long waits at all times of the day. That would be simply untrue.

I also think his last thought doesn't get stressed enough. Headliner attractions are seeing shorter waits under FP+. Which I think is a great advantage. I remember showing up at Hollywood Studios on a beautiful september afternoon with my FP+ for ToT, and it wasn't really even necassary. ToT only had a 10 minute wait at 4 in the afternoon!

He could have just said "longer wait times" because that is almost universally true. Whether its the difference of one family getting in front of you due to FP+ vs SB on a ride that previously didn't have it (thus increasing your wait time very minimally) or 100 ... (increasing it much more dramatically) ... wait times are "longer" in general.

As for the Headliners, again I would like to see more updated data on this (and for the middle attractions as well), But if you were unwilling to wait more than 30 mins for something, this really doesn't impact you. Decreasing the wait for SM from 75 to 60 mins means nothing to me since I am not going to ride it at either of those wait times

 

[Angel Ariel]

Even w a minimal wait for the kiosk, getting FP- tickets did take time to go get. And you now are not having to do that at all.

It took me more time to pre-plan our FP+ than the act of getting a legacy FP in the parks over the course of a full day ever took.

If you pulled 5 FP- tickets, that means you walked to 5 rides that you did not ride but left and came back to later! That is a big time-sink. Even tho it seems like you're saving time left and right, you're really just spending the time in other ways.

As I have said repeatedly - we did attractions by land. We'd pull a FP, do everything else in the land, then "go back". That was not a big time suck. It took less time than pre-planning FP+ did - for *us*.

TBH, that isn't really debatable - this is my personal experience I'm talking about. Your experience is different, I get it. but that doesn't mean my experience was the same as yours.

I respect that you are being honest about your experience, so please respect that I am being honest in describing mine.

 

[jeffbear]

Bottom line ... 8 months ago, after my first hands on experience with FP+ I thought there were things I liked and things I didn't like about the new system. A thousand threads later, it's still pretty much the same list of pros and cons.

 

[Laketravis]

As for the Headliners, again I would like to see more updated data on this (and for the middle attractions as well), But if you were unwilling to wait more than 30 mins for something, this really doesn't impact you. Decreasing the wait for SM from 75 to 60 mins means nothing to me since I am not going to ride it at either of those wait times

Me too.

I know some people just hate it when I get all technical, but the results are exactly as intended - the aggregation of demand coupled with the aggregation of supply, carefully distributed throughout the day, will stabilize and somewhat reduce peak wait times for popular attractions while increasing wait times for not-so-popular attractions and provide such results a consistently higher percentage of the time regardless of loading conditions. I said that two years ago and I'll keep saying it: this is yield management at work, and if anyone is interested in understanding how it works, why it works, and what the long term effects are they don't have to guess at what WDW is doing because these principles have been around for a long time. It's how so many airplanes fly with very few empty seats, and the end game of what a previous poster pointed out: WDW needed to figure out a way to accommodate the demands of a growing number of guests with what they already had in the parks. That's what builds profit margins.

 

[Shaden]

It took me more time to pre-plan our FP+ than the act of getting a legacy FP in the parks over the course of a full day ever took.



As I have said repeatedly - we did attractions by land. We'd pull a FP, do everything else in the land, then "go back". That was not a big time suck. It took less time than pre-planning FP+ did - for *us*.

TBH, that isn't really debatable - this is my personal experience I'm talking about. Your experience is different, I get it. but that doesn't mean my experience was the same as yours.

I respect that you are being honest about your experience, so please respect that I am being honest in describing mine.

Oddly we did much more criss-crossing the parks on the last trip than ever, due to the need to use the Kiosks to see whats available and book anything beyond the first 3.

We used to, as I said, just tour and pick up as we went along. Now sure this sometimes meant a backtrack here and there, or it might have meant a diversion to swing by a ride on the way to another (not really altering our path very much.) It resulted in things like walking from Splash to BTMRR to grab and FP then back to splash to ride ... then to BTRMM to ride with the FP. Or Popping over to space, Grabbing and FP then riding Buzz or Astro or People mover, then popping back to space, I will fully admit in Epcot it often involved heading to TT to grab an FP then over to Soarin to ride, but we would work our way back to TT riding along the way to use the FP. And Epcot was FAR better with FP- than it is with FP+ in our experience.

Anyway, we found our group doing much more criss-crossing. Because we would get to the kiosk and take what was available. For one instance we were at Splash, headed to the kiosk in the tunnel at the entrance of Frontier land, picked up Big Thunder, Back to big thunder, back to the kiosk, FP for Space, Across to Space, Spaced, Kiosk near Stitch, then over to Peter Pan.

Now, we didn't -have- to do this, but Kiosks still require you to crisscross the parks, and in my experience (and most peoples from what I see here) have longer waits than FP- (sometimes significant waits) ... So beyond the 3, I really don't see the advantage in FP+ over FP- ...

This then really brings the debate down to whether having 3 pre-booked (and the planning/scheduling and potentially feeling like you are scheduled that this involves), subject to tiers and availability, potentially needing to rework all this as you go if your plans/itinerary changes, and longer SB wait times for a significant portion of the attractions --- is better for you than ---- having a true clean slate each day, with equal access to all the FPs, lower SB wait times for a significant number of attractions, without having to do as much preplanning/scheduling or worrying about availability if your plans change.

This will impact different people different ways, depending on style and what you enjoy.

For us, the advantage to FP+ was on arrival day. Because we had stuff booked that afternoon/evening. That was nice, not that we wouldn't have been able to pull FPs under FP-, but with such a short period in the park and on our first day, it was good to know we could have it all set up ... beyond that, FP+ lost all its advantages for us. They just don't work for us, they are offset be the negative impacts it had on our trip.