LOVE or HATE FP+ Anyone's mind been changed ??

[Tarheel girl 1975]

I would like to know, do Len and his touring-plan testers book a WDW resort room and log in at 60 days, or do they buy tickets-only in advance and book at 30 days, or do they have AP's and book the day of, or whenever you're allowed to when you have an AP? Do they use kiosks or their phones? Does every testa, err, tester, book their own personal FP+s or does someone book the passes for them, give them a touring plan and then send them out to walk the parks? Do they test at low times or high crowd-level times? And depending on all these factors, how drastically does the availability of FP+s and therefore the touring plan change? What do the testers report with respect to standby queues, queues for FP+ kiosks, and the availability and reliability of the FP+ interface by computer or smart phone? Do they use throw-away rooms or other tricks to maximize their touring plans?

It's my understanding that Len uses the touring plans optimizer to create the plans, although I think they are field tested as well. I don't think the basic plans in the book include using FP+ for 7DMT, Anna and Elsa, or any of the parades or fireworks. And those are really the only attractions that might not be available 30 days out. His plans do assume that you will get there at rope drop. I referenced him because touring plans is data driven and numbers are much more objective than I am.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Yes, I understand that wait times are longer. However, in last weeks podcast and in many threads there have been exagerations that there's never a good time to ride certain attractions because they always have long standby lines. I just want to make it clear that the first hour or two and the last hour or two still have the same wait times under FP+ as they did under legacy. I just don't want anyone getting the wrong impression.

In my earlier example, I mentioned ToT only had a 10 minute wait on that day in Sept in 2014. However, on that day in 2013 it had a 20 minute wait. In my case, 20 minutes is the limit for my DH and I to wait. So the wait time under FP+ would be far more preferable to us.

I've never seen anyone debate that RD or closing were still good strategies. I've seen even the most ardent FP+ detractors agree with that.

 

[SmithSmith]

I've never seen anyone debate that RD or closing were still good strategies. I've seen even the most ardent FP+ detractors agree with that.

I'm not saying it happens all the time, but occasionally someone will make a sweeping generalization. For example, "SSE always has a line now and a FP is now necassary to ride it". This was my paraphrase but it was something that was said on last weeks podcast.

 

[Disneyhappy]

While people watching, the number of people with their faces in their phones was crazy and then I realized I was one of them! Another reason I don't like FP+.

Don't even get me started on the number of times someone walked into me because they were looking at their phone.

 

[wdw4rfam]

We tried it in September for 11 days and all I can say is it was the final straw for us and for the first time since 2002, we are taking our vacation elsewhere this year.

 

[wisblue]

While people watching, the number of people with their faces in their phones was crazy and then I realized I was one of them! Another reason I don't like FP+.

Don't even get me started on the number of times someone walked into me because they were looking at their phone.

It's so bad that I saw the same thing at Disneyland. I couldn't figure out why people there would be looking for FP+ availability.

Seriously, though, I don't think you can blame face in phone syndrome on FP+. You see that wherever you go these days, and even if there were no FP+ a lot of people would be looking at their phones for things like wait times, FP return times, and things having nothing to do with Disney like texting, Tweeting, posting pictures, checking e-mail, or whatever.

 

[SmithSmith]

It's so bad that I saw the same thing at Disneyland. I couldn't figure out why people there would be looking for FP+ availability.

Seriously, though, I don't think you can blame face in phone syndrome on FP+. You see that wherever you go these days, and even if there were no FP+ a lot of people would be looking at their phones for things like wait times, FP return times, and things having nothing to do with Disney like texting, Tweeting, posting pictures, checking e-mail, or whatever.

Yeah, you're going to see this no matter where you go, this isn't exclusive to WDW. Honestly, I think people are giving the MDE app too much credit because it's not that interesting. The same people who stare at their phone at Disney are the same people who would stare at the phone at restaurants, social events, etc. This is a personality trait, nothing else.

 

[Suvadoo]

It's so bad that I saw the same thing at Disneyland. I couldn't figure out why people there would be looking for FP+ availability.

Seriously, though, I don't think you can blame face in phone syndrome on FP+. You see that wherever you go these days, and even if there were no FP+ a lot of people would be looking at their phones for things like wait times, FP return times, and things having nothing to do with Disney like texting, Tweeting, posting pictures, checking e-mail, or whatever.

I can only speak for my family: phones are banned while we're on vacation and in restaurants. That's another reason I resent FP plus.

But the most disgusting trend I'm starting to see is women talking on their phones in public restrooms. I feel like it's an invasion of my privacy! Ok, back to our regularly scheduled debate.

 

[Love Tink]

I just want to make it clear that the first hour or two and the last hour or two still have the same wait times under FP+ as they did under legacy. I just don't want anyone getting the wrong impression.

In my earlier example, I mentioned ToT only had a 10 minute wait on that day in Sept in 2014. However, on that day in 2013 it had a 20 minute wait. In my case, 20 minutes is the limit for my DH and I to wait. So the wait time under FP+ would be far more preferable to us.

I'm not saying it happens all the time, but occasionally someone will make a sweeping generalization. For example, "SSE always has a line now and a FP is now necassary to ride it". This was my paraphrase but it was something that was said on last weeks podcast.

I would say it is a very inaccurate "sweeping generalization" to say that wait times at the beginning of the day are the same now as they were under the original FP.

I still think rope drop is the best part of the day, but I've definitely noticed that lines seem to get long much quicker now that FP+ is in place - particularly on rides like Test Track, Rock N Roller Coaster, and Expedition Everest.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I'm not saying it happens all the time, but occasionally someone will make a sweeping generalization. For example, "SSE always has a line now and a FP is now necassary to ride it". This was my paraphrase but it was something that was said on last weeks podcast.

IME here on the DIS, RD has not usually been recommended for SSE because it generally does get a line first thing in the morning as people are entering the park and passing beneath the sphere.

Also - as has already been covered - the roundtable discussion is generally the podcasters voicing their opinions. Perhaps, to that poster, the lines that currently exist for SSE do constitute a "line" necessary enough to use a FP for it. That determination is subjective to everyone.

To look at data, though - using Jan 26th as a date - here's the info from Touring Plans on SSE:
(#s are, in order: Average Wait Predicted, Average Wait Observed, Crowd Level Predicted, Crowd Level Observed)

2015: Spaceship Earth 19 23 4 6
2014: Spaceship Earth 10 12 4 6
2013: Spaceship Earth 9 9 4 4

In 2013, FP+ was not yet in place. So between 2013 and 2014, with the observed crowd level increasing by 2 and FP+ being at the resorts (but not yet for offsite, and with tiers being relatively new since Nov 2013), the average wait for SSE only changed by 3 minutes.

Between 2014 and 2015, with no change in crowd levels observed but FP+ now available to all WDW guests, the average observed wait time almost doubled (12 mins to 23 minutes).

There are many people on these boards who consider rides with 20+ min average waits as their threshold for "needing" a FP to ride it. Haunted Mansion, for example, also had a 20 min average wait yesterday. Many people consider that a "good" FP+ to get in MK. Mesaboy's thread rates HM as a "B" FP+ to get (#3 of the Bs, just behind Buzz and FOF). His thread also rates SSE as a "B" FP+ in Epcot.

My point, just in case it's gotten a bit lost in my rambling, is that a line that people consider "necessary" to get a FP+ is subjective by nature.

If you have a problem with the podcaster (which I only say given your previous post with specific times of things that were said that you disagree with), there's a thread on the DisUnplugged Podcast forum already talking about corrections to that podcast. Some of the podcasters have responded. I'd recommend letting them know what your concerns/problems with the podcast are directly.

 

[SmithSmith]

IME here on the DIS, RD has not usually been recommended for SSE because it generally does get a line first thing in the morning as people are entering the park and passing beneath the sphere.

Also - as has already been covered - the roundtable discussion is generally the podcasters voicing their opinions. Perhaps, to that poster, the lines that currently exist for SSE do constitute a "line" necessary enough to use a FP for it. That determination is subjective to everyone.

To look at data, though - using Jan 26th as a date - here's the info from Touring Plans on SSE:
(#s are, in order: Average Wait Predicted, Average Wait Observed, Crowd Level Predicted, Crowd Level Observed)

2015: Spaceship Earth 19 23 4 6
2014: Spaceship Earth 10 12 4 6
2013: Spaceship Earth 9 9 4 4

In 2013, FP+ was not yet in place. So between 2013 and 2014, with the observed crowd level increasing by 2 and FP+ being at the resorts (but not yet for offsite, and with tiers being relatively new since Nov 2013), the average wait for SSE only changed by 3 minutes.

Between 2014 and 2015, with no change in crowd levels observed but FP+ now available to all WDW guests, the average observed wait time almost doubled (12 mins to 23 minutes).

There are many people on these boards who consider rides with 20+ min average waits as their threshold for "needing" a FP to ride it. Haunted Mansion, for example, also had a 20 min average wait yesterday. Many people consider that a "good" FP+ to get in MK. Mesaboy's thread rates HM as a "B" FP+ to get (#3 of the Bs, just behind Buzz and FOF). His thread also rates SSE as a "B" FP+ in Epcot.

My point, just in case it's gotten a bit lost in my rambling, is that a line that people consider "necessary" to get a FP+ is subjective by nature.

If you have a problem with the podcaster (which I only say given your previous post with specific times of things that were said that you disagree with), there's a thread on the DisUnplugged Podcast forum already talking about corrections to that podcast. Some of the podcasters have responded. I'd recommend letting them know what your concerns/problems with the podcast are directly.

1. While some of the podcasts are about personal opinions, i.e. Mnnshp and MVMCP episodes, this one was not. It was described at the beginning of the podcast that this was a "refresher course on MM+".

2. I am confused. I am not speaking about SSE wait times during peak hours.

3. I've read that thread. I will not post on that board anymore, I do not like certain individuals over there. Are you telling me that the podcasters were responding on that thread?

 

[SuperTink]

Yeah, you're going to see this no matter where you go, this isn't exclusive to WDW. Honestly, I think people are giving the MDE app too much credit because it's not that interesting. The same people who stare at their phone at Disney are the same people who would stare at the phone at restaurants, social events, etc. This is a personality trait, nothing else.

People *rely* on phones to navigate Disney, that's the difference.

 

[jtowntoflorida]

I know everyone is reporting higher crowds, based on what they've seen and experienced. But I wonder have the crowds really increased substantially or is this the redistrubution of the crowds? More people are in the park common areas waiting for FP+ reservations? I don't know if it's true or not. But is this a possibility?

To clarify...I wasn't referring to reports that it feels more crowded in the past (I, for one, don't believe the modest gains in park attendance really translate to these much bigger crowds everyone supposedly experiences). What I'm referring to is the lack of availability for 4th and subsequent FP+s during any time that is at least moderately busy.

As for people having their noses in their phones...eh, I don't care what other people do. But I do care that I felt like I had to be constantly on my phone, searching for the elusive 4th FP+ that was for anything other than a bottom tier attraction.

 

[Shaden]

IME here on the DIS, RD has not usually been recommended for SSE because it generally does get a line first thing in the morning as people are entering the park and passing beneath the sphere.

Also - as has already been covered - the roundtable discussion is generally the podcasters voicing their opinions. Perhaps, to that poster, the lines that currently exist for SSE do constitute a "line" necessary enough to use a FP for it. That determination is subjective to everyone.

To look at data, though - using Jan 26th as a date - here's the info from Touring Plans on SSE:
(#s are, in order: Average Wait Predicted, Average Wait Observed, Crowd Level Predicted, Crowd Level Observed)

2015: Spaceship Earth 19 23 4 6
2014: Spaceship Earth 10 12 4 6
2013: Spaceship Earth 9 9 4 4

In 2013, FP+ was not yet in place. So between 2013 and 2014, with the observed crowd level increasing by 2 and FP+ being at the resorts (but not yet for offsite, and with tiers being relatively new since Nov 2013), the average wait for SSE only changed by 3 minutes.

Between 2014 and 2015, with no change in crowd levels observed but FP+ now available to all WDW guests, the average observed wait time almost doubled (12 mins to 23 minutes).

There are many people on these boards who consider rides with 20+ min average waits as their threshold for "needing" a FP to ride it. Haunted Mansion, for example, also had a 20 min average wait yesterday. Many people consider that a "good" FP+ to get in MK. Mesaboy's thread rates HM as a "B" FP+ to get (#3 of the Bs, just behind Buzz and FOF). His thread also rates SSE as a "B" FP+ in Epcot.

My point, just in case it's gotten a bit lost in my rambling, is that a line that people consider "necessary" to get a FP+ is subjective by nature.

If you have a problem with the podcaster (which I only say given your previous post with specific times of things that were said that you disagree with), there's a thread on the DisUnplugged Podcast forum already talking about corrections to that podcast. Some of the podcasters have responded. I'd recommend letting them know what your concerns/problems with the podcast are directly.

Angel how are you pulling that data ? PM me if you like, I might do a few of those if its open to the public, and I will pick dates at random and report them all, not just cherry pick - though, I don't know if people would believe me, I really am interested in actual data. There is no incentive to screw myself out of a vacation if the data doesn't support my assumption ...

 

[Angel Ariel]

1. While some of the podcasts are about personal opinions, i.e. Mnnshp and MVMCP episodes, this one was not. It was described at the beginning of the podcast that this was a "refresher course on MM+".

1. I understand what was said at the beginning. However - this was the 2nd hour of the podcast. The 2nd hour of the podcast is not a news discussion, it's a roundtable discussion. A few weeks ago the topic was what time of year to go to Disney. Today it was Pros/Cons of various disney vacation spots (WDW, DL, Cruise, etc). Are there facts thrown in? Sure. But is the format of that part of the show more of a roundtable discussion, sharing of opinions? Also, yes.

You can, of course, choose to not agree with that approach to that portion of the podcast, but that doesn't change what it is.

2. My mistake here - I didn't realize the average time TP posts is from 10-5pm. I would argue that 10am is not what I'd consider peak time, but regardless. Again, it goes back to - there has been very little argument that RD and closing are good times to ride attractions. Even on the podcast there has been little argument about that. And my point about a "line that needs FP+" being subjective still stands.

The submitted wait time for BTMRR from Lines users didn't go over 15 minutes until 11am on Jan 26th, 2015. It stayed between 15 and 35 mins until around 3pm, where it dropped under 10 again (3pm parade, I assume). After the parade, it jumped back over 15 mins and wait times climbed until 6:30pm when it slowly dwindled til close. So yeah, definitely periods of time throughout the day that the line was short. I think most people would also agree that BTMRR is generally a "headliner" and a "necessary" FP+.
*For these numbers above, there is info on the entire graph, from opening to close. It is not just from 10am-5pm.

Point being that the existence of short periods in a day where lines are very short doesn't necessarily equate to a FP+ not being necessary for that ride. It's subjective. As the vast majority of the podcast was.

3. Obviously your right to not post over there should you so choose. But, yes, there was at least one podcaster there. There are replies there from Kathy. I thought I had seen Kevin respond as well, but that could have been another thread.

My point was that if you have problems with the podcasters, there are ways to let them know. There's ways to e-mail the podcast itself, there are e-mails posted for the podcasters individually also. No one else here is responsible for what's said on the podcast.

Eta: I don't mean #3 snarkily at all. You truly seem to have a major issue with that podcast. If it is something that bothers you enough to go take notes as to when certain things in the podcast were said, it just seems like you should maybe actually tell that to the podcast.

 

[Angel Ariel]

Angel how are you pulling that data ? PM me if you like, I might do a few of those if its open to the public, and I will pick dates at random and report them all, not just cherry pick - though, I don't know if people would believe me, I really am interested in actual data. There is no incentive to screw myself out of a vacation if the data doesn't support my assumption ...

I have a Touring Plans subscription, and I'm getting it from the historical crowd data. I believe the data from yesterday is open to all, but I think for previous years you need to have a subscription.

 

[SmithSmith]

1. I understand what was said at the beginning. However - this was the 2nd hour of the podcast. The 2nd hour of the podcast is not a news discussion, it's a roundtable discussion. A few weeks ago the topic was what time of year to go to Disney. Today it was Pros/Cons of various disney vacation spots (WDW, DL, Cruise, etc). Are there facts thrown in? Sure. But is the format of that part of the show more of a roundtable discussion, sharing of opinions? Also, yes.

You can, of course, choose to not agree with that approach to that portion of the podcast, but that doesn't change what it is.

2. My mistake here - I didn't realize the average time TP posts is from 10-5pm. I would argue that 10am is not what I'd consider peak time, but regardless. Again, it goes back to - there has been very little argument that RD and closing are good times to ride attractions. Even on the podcast there has been little argument about that. And my point about a "line that needs FP+" being subjective still stands.

The submitted wait time for BTMRR from Lines users didn't go over 15 minutes until 11am on Jan 26th, 2015. It stayed between 15 and 35 mins until around 3pm, where it dropped under 10 again (3pm parade, I assume). After the parade, it jumped back over 15 mins and wait times climbed until 6:30pm when it slowly dwindled til close. So yeah, definitely periods of time throughout the day that the line was short. I think most people would also agree that BTMRR is generally a "headliner" and a "necessary" FP+.
*For these numbers above, there is info on the entire graph, from opening to close. It is not just from 10am-5pm.

Point being that the existence of short periods in a day where lines are very short doesn't necessarily equate to a FP+ not being necessary for that ride. It's subjective. As the vast majority of the podcast was.

3. Obviously your right to not post over there should you so choose. But, yes, there was at least one podcaster there. There are replies there from Kathy. I thought I had seen Kevin respond as well, but that could have been another thread.

My point was that if you have problems with the podcasters, there are ways to let them know. There's ways to e-mail the podcast itself, there are e-mails posted for the podcasters individually also. No one else here is responsible for what's said on the podcast.

Eta: I don't mean #3 snarkily at all. You truly seem to have a major issue with that podcast. If it is something that bothers you enough to go take notes as to when certain things in the podcast were said, it just seems like you should maybe actually tell that to the podcast.

1. Angel, I'm am not irritated with the panel giving their opinions. I understand that that is a part of the programming. I've watched enough Disunplugged to know their format. I'm irritated that they were saying things that were flat out wrong! For example:

25:35 Kathy: I think back to how it was on vacation with my kids, and I would ask them "what's the one attraction that you want to ride?", and then we would make sure that we did those. Well now if you only have three, I mean it was easy for me, I only had three kids, so I would get those three. But what if you have 4 or 5 or 6 people in your family that want to ride different things in the park. Now, how do you say to little Johnny "hey, we're going to do space mountain instead of carousel of progress?". (Let's ignore the fact you can split up groups.... CoP isn't a FP+ attraction!)

29:04 Rino: I'm not 100% sure that you can book all three fastpasses for 3 major rides though.
Craig: You can't.
Rino: You get like one big, one medium, and the smaller one. (What are they talking about?!)

30:13 Kathy: Even the joke used to be or the story with spaceship earth. You don't want to ride spaceship earth first thing in the morning because everybody would hit it. But now, there isn't a downtime for spaceship earth. (SSE had a 5 minute posted wait as I wrote this at 6:00 1/25)

Giving false information is not an opinion, and is not subjective.

2. I am completely clueless on why you're bringing up peak waits for BTMR.

The morning and evening waits for SSE are typically 5 minutes long under both legacy and FP+. This is all I'm trying to point out. It is not something one can have a subjective view of.

3. I really didn't mean to make this solely about the podcasters remarks. I had only used Kathy's remark because it was readily available to me. I was trying to speak generally because I know that I have seen comments like hers made by other posters, but it would take me much more time searching those out so I chose Kathy's instead. I apologize, I really don't want to discuss this further. My only intention all along was to clarify for anybody reading this thread in hopes of understanding FP+, to make them aware that long waits all day long is inaccurate.

I don't need to air my grievances directly with the podcasters. I honestly think their own message board is direct enough, because as I said earlier, I am not a regular viewer anymore. I really don't care as much as you think I do. ETA: my problem wasn't really with the podcasters, it was with the other posters that thought everything they said brilliant. I documented the errors of the podcast for the benefit of the readers of that thread. I didn't want anyone to be misled.

P.s. I really don't wish to derail this thread any longer.

 

[Suvadoo]

To clarify...I wasn't referring to reports that it feels more crowded in the past (I, for one, don't believe the modest gains in park attendance really translate to these much bigger crowds everyone supposedly experiences). What I'm referring to is the lack of availability for 4th and subsequent FP+s during any time that is at least moderately busy.

As for people having their noses in their phones...eh, I don't care what other people do. But I do care that I felt like I had to be constantly on my phone, searching for the elusive 4th FP+ that was for anything other than a bottom tier attraction.

I don't think there was ever availability to offer a 4th FP+. Guests were complaining about only having 3 FP+ reservations, so Disney threw out getting the 4th through the kiosks. Disney knew the 4th FP would be limited or non-existent but it appeased the guests. It was a PR move and it worked.

IMO lack of 4th FP's availability is the reason Disney won't make it available on the app. If that info were on the app, everyone would know what was available to most guests for the 4th FP. People who arrived at the parks without booking any FP's would possibly be shut out of booking their first 3 FP's. I realize some people are getting a good 4th FP + selections, but some are not. Disney offered 3 FP+ reservations because that was the maximum ride capacity of their parks.

 

[Rebekkap]

I don't think there was ever availability to offer a 4th FP+. Guests were complaining about only having 3 FP+ reservations, so Disney threw out getting the 4th through the kiosks. Disney knew the 4th FP would be limited or non-existent but it appeased the guests. It was a PR move and it worked.

IMO lack of 4th FP's availability is the reason Disney won't make it available on the app. If that info were on the app, everyone would know what was available to most guests for the 4th FP. People who arrived at the parks without booking any FP's would possibly be shut out of booking their first 3 FP's. I realize some people are getting a good 4th FP + selections, but some are not. Disney offered 3 FP+ reservations because that was the maximum ride capacity of their parks.

My experience last May was that we could get pretty much anything we wanted as a 4th FP+ - including TT at Epcot, TSMM at Hollywood Studios, and the Mountains at MK. I don't think we tried for a fourth at AK because it didn't seem necessary. At MK we were able to keep getting FP+ after the fourth too - I ended up with 11 including my including my initial three in about 12 hours in the park. Obviously availability will vary but it was not a particularly quiet time.

 

[estherhead]

I've been off Disboards the past few days (work is always getting in my way of Disney planning) and clicked this just to see if the usual suspects had showed up. Yup. Enjoy the battle, y'all, enjoy the battle.