Losing cusstomers

[dkrauss]

For my family, we have gone annually and after our Mid November 2014 trip we decided we need a break. We intentionally choose low crowd times and pull out kids from school. With FP+ it doesn't matter if it is low crowd...even walk on rides now have lines, the walkways are crowded, etc. we just didn't feel the magic this trip and none of us (even me the Disnerd) have any desire to rush back. Planning to do some other trips the next few years until things improve at wdw. Hopefully opening some new rides/lands will alleviate some of the overcrowding and make it exciting for us again. I wI'll just have to suck it up as far as the annoying over scheduling is concerned b/c it seems here to stay, but that is a big deterrent as well. Guess we have gone from an annual family to a every 3-5 yrs family. We will continue to do dcl (when I can find a reasonable rate) and would like to try DL at some point as well. I don't know what year we will go back but it isn't even a thought in my head anytime soon. Such a bummer.

I so respect your comments. There is no anger in your words.........that I can perceive. You might very well be Disney'd out and a break is most likely the best medicine. I've highlighted your comment "until things improve at wdw". Are you hoping for a 5th gate or more hotels? What in your mind would make things improve? I ask because you acknowledge, and I believe correctly so, that the MDE/FP+ stuff is here to stay. A vacation is about having fun! If going to WDW isn't fun...........you're absolutely correct for not going. But based on your final 2 sentences I feel you'll be back.......... Give it time........... and enjoy your next vacation!

Doug

 

[Bullseye]

This year will be our 10th annual family trip to WDW. Not sure when this time was that you could go without planning and still have the best possible experience, but it had to be before 2006.

I completely agree with this. We've been going as a family since 2005 and I also cannot remember not having to plan accommodations and adrs well in advance if I wanted to have/do the things I wanted. AFAIC, the only thing FP+ did as far as planning is add an additional hour at the 60 day mark....no big deal

 

[goofy4tink]

As a repeat customer letting the family of 4's AP (and trips 3x/yr) go this year, I think an accurate measurement of customers like myself would be the 3rd parties like TouringPlans and Owner's Locker subscriptions. Obviously any declining revenue is private info but I have been wondering how these kinds of companies are doing with the changes.

I think most that have Owners Lockers are still going at least once a year. It's an interesting thought though. I'll have to get an answer in May when I go down.

I know many people who go to WDW st least once a year. And they tend to spend time at US/IoA and SW. They don't need to spend as much time in WDW. They are experienced and know how to do what they want to do, without wasting a ton of time.
I guess only time will tell. But most of my trips are fairly low cost. I have yet to spend more than $4000 on a trip. Yes, it's costs more every year. But so do most things in life. And yes, there are lots of other places to visit. I'm heading to London next fall. But, I still have my WDW and DL trips booked.

 

[MolonLabe]

I guess it makes people feel better to post how much money Disney is losing from them. But if the parks are even fuller than before, they are getting that money back from some other family. Who may be spending even more $$$.

Given the hierarchy of Disney spending, I'd say most families aren't dropping 5 figures per trip. Most are going like we are this trip, about $4,000 (bump that another $500 probably for incidentals and what not). That still leaves WDW with $15,500 to account for. On average that'd be 3 families they'd need.

You want proof? Last week I could have gotten 30% off my usual TPV view at Contemporary still if I wanted to upgrade. For ever deluxe guest like me they lose, they need 2 moderate or 3 value to make up for it because the Deluxe crowd don't seem to filling my spots... I've been checking as best I can.

 

[Cormoran]

Given the hierarchy of Disney spending, I'd say most families aren't dropping 5 figures per trip. Most are going like we are this trip, about $4,000 (bump that another $500 probably for incidentals and what not). That still leaves WDW with $15,500 to account for. On average that'd be 3 families they'd need.

You want proof? Last week I could have gotten 30% off my usual TPV view at Contemporary still if I wanted to upgrade. For ever deluxe guest like me they lose, they need 2 moderate or 3 value to make up for it because the Deluxe crowd don't seem to filling my spots... I've been checking as best I can.

That's the reason they're converting some of the deluxe rooms into DVC. They reduce the number of vacant rooms at the Deluxe resorts.

 

[Alfalfa]

The loss of my money may be insignificant to Disney, but it's not insignificant to me and others like me who are disappointed enough in the WDW experience to cut back or stop visiting the parks. It saddens me that the quality of a WDW vacation has diminished. I am also saddened by being constantly reminded on these boards that my voice, my money, and my opinions don't matter to Disney.

Perhaps "Married to the Mouse" should be required reading..........

 

[cakebaker]

That's the reason they're converting some of the deluxe rooms into DVC. They reduce the number of vacant rooms at the Deluxe resorts.

I'm not convinced this is true at all. They may be converting, but I think it's due to the popularity of DVC. I can tell you this, the latest summer discount just released had some of the lowest availability in the Deluxe range I've ever seen. Even when it was only released to Disney Visa cardholders we were unable to apply it to our current reservation due to no availability in the view of our choice. That's the first time since they started discounts we've ever seen that happen. I think the Deluxes are doing just fine.

 

[MolonLabe]

I'm not convinced this is true at all. They may be converting, but I think it's due to the popularity of DVC. I can tell you this, the latest summer discount just released had some of the lowest availability in the Deluxe range I've ever seen. Even when it was only released to Disney Visa cardholders we were unable to apply it to our current reservation due to no availability in the view of our choice. That's the first time since they started discounts we've ever seen that happen.

Yet the availability is still there? FWIW Summer usually has this problem. They were there for Fall, winter and spring. Not surprising they weren't for summer. I decided to check just for giggles, they might have dropped a few but our favorites are still included. Which would indicate the opposite compared to previous summers, which is somewhat weird for that period. In any case, decent availability persists and I'm not surprised.

The only way I see them truly winning people like me back over is to offer a "1 fastpass for each ride, any time, each day" option. Either as a perk for deluxe or as a added cost to the ticket similar to Universal Express Pass but without an unlimited option.

The easy part? The average guest would never know who was using a "regular" fastpass+ or a upgraded fp+.

Ironic a couple of years ago I said I hope WDW never does a "pay to play"... now I'm hoping they do.

 

[Alfalfa]

That's the reason they're converting some of the deluxe rooms into DVC. They reduce the number of vacant rooms at the Deluxe resorts.

I truly believe those DVC customers should be at the top of the food chain in regards to perks. Those folks subsidize the cost of resort construction/renovation thru their initial investment and then cover the continued operational costs via annual maintenance assessments while causing very little of those costs themselves (for example, they make their own beds (or don't) - there is no housekeeping for the duration of their stay).

Disney obviously loves the model as evidenced by the fact that DVC timeshares have been the only new resort construction in years.

 

[Cormoran]

Interesting thing about DVC, the profits are phenomenal and all of the sale procedes are bundled in with the WDW theme parks. So, Disney is going to continue building DVC for as long as possible, because when they stop their profits are going to take a substantial hit. My info source is Jim Hill Media.

 

[larryz]

I truly believe those DVC customers should be at the top of the food chain in regards to perks. Those folks subsidize the cost of resort construction/renovation thru their initial investment and then cover the continued operational costs via annual maintenance assessments while causing very little of those costs themselves (for example, they make their own beds (or don't) - there is no housekeeping for the duration of their stay).

Disney obviously loves the model as evidenced by the fact that DVC timeshares have been the only new resort construction in years.

I suggested early on in the FP+ model that their intent was to fill the parks with resort and DVC guests. Off siters -- you need to enjoy it while you can!

 

[MrInfinity]

I truly believe those DVC customers should be at the top of the food chain in regards to perks. Those folks subsidize the cost of resort construction/renovation thru their initial investment and then cover the continued operational costs via annual maintenance assessments while causing very little of those costs themselves (for example, they make their own beds (or don't) - there is no housekeeping for the duration of their stay).

I don't really follow your "subsidizing" model. If you by DVC, you are not subsidizing hotel construction, you are buying the right to stay in constructed property. If I buy a home, I am not subsidizing my home construction for the builder, I am paying for the home, which includes labor and material. Subsidizing would be... if a local company down the road "subsidized" construction to encourage new construction to occur, because they have an interest in someone else buying that property, because new people living there would mean more business. Like... I dunno. A city might subsidize local downtown construction, because that in turn grows the city, even tho the city is not buying a portion of what it is subsidizing. Anyways. DVC owners do not subsidize the costs of resort guests. I'm sure they calculate this as completely different divisions, both profitable separately.

Disney obviously loves the model as evidenced by the fact that DVC timeshares have been the only new resort construction in years.

Are you sure? I would have thought the Art of Animation capacity totally dwarfs the recent DVC additions. Probly by 10- or 20- fold.

 

[Alfalfa]

I don't really follow your "subsidizing" model....

I use the word "subsidize" to convey the fact that the aggregate purchase costs paid by DVC members is internally allocated to the capex of the DVC resorts themselves. While the reciprocal is that the DVC owner enjoys the continued use of the property thru point redemption, their upfront payment is much the same as the purchase price for any RE transaction which covers the developmental costs of that property. The marketing version is that the owner is buying the rights to future visits but the accounting version applies that revenue from the purchase to the construction/renovation costs. In essence, any non-owner who pays to stay is almost pure profit because the "owners" investments covered construction/reno and their annual maintenance assessments cover everything from real estate taxes to transportation infrastructure.
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Are you sure? I would have thought the Art of Animation capacity totally dwarfs the recent DVC additions. Probly by 10- or 20- fold.

Yes. AoA is quite large, but it's a construction project that was adapted after the original Pop Century project was halted after 9/11. While development resumed in 2010 and rooms were added to inventory in 2012, it was WDW's last non-DVC resort model planned over 12 years ago, thus my comment that DVC has been the only new resort construction in years. In fact, the only non-DVC accommodations built on Disney property in recent years wasn't even built by Disney.

 

[Misha72683]

I think the planning required for Disney is off-putting. We were discussing our up-coming trip last week and my one friend was horrified. She wants to take her kids to Disney some day and she wants to dine at nice restaurants, etc, but can't stand the idea of having to book ADRs 6 months out and FPs 2 months out. My mom and I have been talking about going to Disney in a year or two and she has stated she won't plan that far ahead (which is fine because she's a QS meal type anyway). I've been stressing myself out trying to figure out which day we'll be where for our ADRs (date is coming up in a month) and I'm definitely not feeling the magic. I'm still looking forward to going, but even as a planner I'm finding Disney a bit over-whelming and if I wasn't a planner? It might turn me off all together.

 

[Suzanne74]

We just got back and we definately felt a huge dip in magic, especially with the CM's and the amount of pre-planning. We try to somewhat plan but once we get there, we will move away from EMH if we think they are too crowded, or pick a different park if the weather is not compatible (AK in rain is torture) or decide to take a rest day or leave a park early because we are tired. FP+ made it very rigid and it felt like we had to schedule an entire day 2 months in advance. And if there is one glitch (TT, POTC, and RRC were down a lot) then it was hard to keep up. We missed a lot and didn't have time for more simple things.

We too said Universal next time. Staying onsite with front of the line passes gives us so much more downtime. To not have to plan every second of the day seems much more relaxing.

 

[ArwenMarie]

I truly believe those DVC customers should be at the top of the food chain in regards to perks. Those folks subsidize the cost of resort construction/renovation thru their initial investment and then cover the continued operational costs via annual maintenance assessments while causing very little of those costs themselves (for example, they make their own beds (or don't) - there is no housekeeping for the duration of their stay).

Disney obviously loves the model as evidenced by the fact that DVC timeshares have been the only new resort construction in years.

Why? They already have the DVCer's accommodations money for the next 40 years. They don't have to work for it anymore. That's why they love the model.

 

[Cormoran]

I wonder if the strong dollar combined with the increased complexities of planning a WDW vacation with FP+, will effect current park attendance by foreign guests.

 

[ReneeA]

We too, used to be a WDW 2-3 times a year family. We normally do a deluxe resort for 8n/9d the end of Aug, and a couple long weekends at a value or mod throughout the year. No longer. We have now gone to a longer trip once every 2 years. My DD and I did do a quick girl's only trip last year, but spent minimal money at AS Sports.

Disney hasn't done much in the way of expansion of their parks, things are starting to look a bit run down, cleanliness is not what it used to be, and FP+ has changed the way we tour, and not for the better (for us). I believe that way too much time and money is being spent on dvc and not enough on upkeep and park expansion.

Last year, I but the bullet and did a week long trip to US/IOA/Seaworld. We stayed on-site, had front of the line access, and we're shocked at just how magical US really is. I spent as much as I would have for WDW, but enjoyed it more than I had our last few Disney trips.

Oh, and they're expanding their parks...in record time. It shocks me they can open up an entire land in 2 year's time when it takes Disney double that to do half as much.

Our plan is to really do it up this trip - 10 days, water parks, lots of good meals...then take a5 year hiatus from WDW and pray that they have some new inventive things for us to see and do when we return. They won't miss our $$$ in the meantime. There are lots more willing to go in our place.

 

[nilla]

Disney hasn't done much in the way of expansion of their parks, things are starting to look a bit run down, cleanliness is not what it used to be, and FP+ has changed the way we tour, and not for the better (for us). I believe that way too much time and money is being spent on dvc and not enough on upkeep and park expansion.

Not sure I agree here. One of my wife's gripes over the last few years is the amount of refurbs being done (she HATES seeing the skrim on the Castle, Main Street, etc.). I keep telling her it's a necessary evil.

New Fantasyland was a pretty significant change. Haunted Mansion also underwent some big upgrades, and the queues for that, Pooh, and Space Mountain were upgraded.

 

[Goofy'slady]

We are repeat visitors and our trip is planned for this August and we are stay our usual amount of time, so not staying more but also not making it a shorter trip. We will be there for a total of 9 nights 10 days with tickets for 5 days, the MMY dining plan and the Memory Maker. We are also all to familiar with Disney's construction - been dealing with it for years and it's never once made me change our plans or consider postponing our trip. We understand that sometimes construction is necessary in order to make existing things better and expand to be able to draw in new customers and keep old ones. Honestly, if there were no construction or years where you saw none people would complain that Disney is behind in the times and the parks need to be updated. So you know what, no matter what they do you will have customers who just aren't happy with anything they do. Either darn if they do or darn if they don't. They don't mind the construction as long as they don't have to deal with it or it's not impacting their vacation.

Prices wise - yes, prices have increased and will always do so for various reasons. For some that are obvious and for some reasons we the public aren't privy to. Last year we didn't take our usual family annual trip due to my eldest daughter turning 16 and I took her to Cancun Mexico for her sweet 16. For the two of us (DD8 stayed with auntie and her family) flying first class, staying 5 nights 6 days at a 4 star, all inclusive resort (through the membership of a dear friend's vacation club so we got a 20% discount) and zip lining the breakdown went like this: airfare for two 700, resort stay 1200, zip lining 230 (including tips for driver and staff), and 150 in tips for dinners and other staff members and another 300 for souvies for a grand total of 2580. Our Disney trip for this year is roughly costing me 5530, however you have to factor in that this trip will include my youngest daughter as well, so that's airfare for three 730, our Disney package was roughly 3900.00, tips and souvies 700. I feel that while Disney even with the addition of my youngest is a tad bit more expensive I know what I'm getting for that price and for me and my two girls it's still a deal.

I did ask my kids where they would like to go for this year's BIG vacation. I'm a single mum so while we may do an additional long weekend getaway here and there I can only afford one big vacation like this a year. I asked them to really think about it...and after several days of consideration they told me Disney World...big shocker! In the past I have heard first time visitors complain about Disney and say how they would never return. Well, after being on trips with first timers I feel like most of their frustrations come from the fact that they are treating a Disney vacation like it's a slightly larger park from their local amusement park and don't realize the sheer size of WDW and they under estimate the amount of planning involved. Factor in the cost, heat, amount of construction, size of the crowds and other things and soon these folks become overwhelmed. Some feel like for the amount that Disney is charging that Mickey Mouse himself should not only greet them at the gates but personally follow them around with an umbrella shading them from the sun, providing them with a cool beverage and taking away any stress that should arise - in other words some of their expectations get cloudy simply due to the amount of money they pay where if they went somewhere else and spent just as much they wouldn't expect those things. Disney has a particular reputation and people know that and sometimes want the world and they don't want to have to plan outside of getting there to get it. You can have the world at Disney World you just have to know how to go about getting it. For people who simply do nothing but put up the money for a vacation - any vacation without doing a lick of planning or having no insight in what their destination has to offer will always be on the losing end of things.