LET THE FLAMES BEGIN>>>adult only dining

[chobie]

Or maybe when the parent masters the act of parenting, they can bring the child to a more adult venue.

Many people at WDW believe that if it offers a kid's menu and highchairs, it's a family venue not an adult despite the prices.

Who decides who has "mastered the act of parenting"? You?

 

[chobie]

Is it so outrageous to think that some parents actually have children who can sit quietly through a meal? Or that parents can take a screaming wailing child from a restaurant?

Those points have all been agreed upon. The poster who coined the term PPP is referring to the people who feel they are perfect and feel the need to brand other parents as "bad" because they will take their kid to a certain place or react differently in public to their kid's outburst.

 

[tlev]

This was my main point in this discussion. Thank you for saying it in a different way. But, I don't think anyone is listening .

This WAS NOT supposed to be the main point in THIS discussion. The OP has stated quite clearly that they are not against children in upscale restaurants, only the bad parents that allow their child to disrupt another's meal. Regardless of the venue, it is the parent's responsibility to realize when their child's behavior is adverse to the general atmosphere of the restaurant they are in. It is very obvious which restaurants are considered upscale and it is not unreasonable to expect children to behave differently in these than the local McDonalds. I am sorry, but the existence of a children's menu does not automatically mean the restaurant is appropriate for ALL children. The vast majority of children can and do behave perfectly in these enviroments, but there are plenty who can not. It is rude to let any member of your party affect another's meal, whether it is an unruly child, an unwashed adult, a loud braggert, or a drunken fool.

That was what this thread was supposed to be about.

 

[DebIreland]

Hi Nadine and Fred,

Just offering a different perspective here Whilst I agree that it can be annoying to sit through a meal with a loud, screaming child nearby I would say it totally depends on the individual circumstances and the particular reason why the child was crying! If the child is just plain badly behaved, shouting and screaming continuously in a 'spoilt-brat' kinda fashion (" I want a new toy **NOW**"!!!) with the parents doing nothing to deal with this behaviour well then, yes, having to put up with that would bug the hell out of me.

However, if the child is crying due to perhaps banging his head or some mishap then I'd understand that. Furthermore (and this is the point I am so long-windedly trying to make!) I would add that the child might have special needs, some of which are impossible to detect to an outsider. For example, when my eldest child, who is now almost 11, was 3, he suffered from autism (I say 'suffered' past tense because due to intensive therapy, his symptoms have diluted to the point where he is no longer autistic in a diagnostic sense). Whilst some situations were a total no-no for him, other situations were hard to avoid, for example, trips to restaurants whilst on holidays (we always went self-catering but even so we couldn't *always* eat-in due to scheduling etc).

When choosing a restaurant, we had to do our best to avoid crowds and loud noise as it was too upsetting for him and would bring on violent tantrums so therefore (and ironically) the last places we could choose would be kiddie places because the noise and crowds were bound to be more intense, thereby greatly upsetting him. We would choose quieter, more sedate places with calmer atmospheres. Having done that we would then do all in our power to prevent tantrums but of course, lo and behold, despite our best efforts, something unexpected like a sudden noise, an alarm, an overly-friendly waiter trying to chat to our son or a million other things from the shape of the plate to the strength of the lights in the room might set him off and we're there with a 3 year old screaming on the floor with eye-rolling and tut-tutting in abundence from neighbouring tables!!! Now, we would then try to depart as quickly as possible having packed up our food and tended to our other still-hungry baby (now 8).

An exaggurated likelihood I know but I guess my main point is that it truly depends on the reason behind the tantrum and that's not always evident. But I know I have been judged often during our then occasional restaurant trips, walking down the street (with screaming son lying on ground having meltdown!) and almost anywhere else you care to think of!! People do sometimes jump to the worst possible conclusion i.e. "that child is a brat" as opposed to "perhaps that child has special needs".

Please don't think I'm saying that you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. I'm just putting a different perspective out there

 

[chobie]

This WAS NOT supposed to be the main point in THIS discussion. The OP has stated quite clearly that they are not against children in upscale restaurants, only the bad parents that allow their child to disrupt another's meal. Regardless of the venue, it is the parent's responsibility to realize when their child's behavior is adverse to the general atmosphere of the restaurant they are in. It is very obvious which restaurants are considered upscale and it is not unreasonable to expect children to behave differently in these than the local McDonalds. I am sorry, but the existence of a children's menu does not automatically mean the restaurant is appropriate for ALL children. The vast majority of children can and do behave perfectly in these enviroments, but there are plenty who can not. It is rude to let any member of your party affect another's meal, whether it is an unruly child, an unwashed adult, a loud braggert, or a drunken fool.

That was what this thread was supposed to be about.

Again with the bad parents? The only "bad" parents I saw at WDW were the ones beating their kids. Twice in WDW restaurants, Boma and Wolfgang Puck's, I saw children being beaten. Not a swat or a smack, but a beating applied to all areas of this one boy's body There were 8 adults with that family and they all just sat and watched like it was an everyday occurrence.. The one in Boma was a toddler sitting in a stroller, I don't know what transpired, I just saw the mother start slapping as hard as she could the baby's arms. To me, a parent that beats their children is a bad parent. Whereas I might agree that a parent is being lax on their responsibilities when they allow children to be so out of control it ruins other people's experience, I will not judge them as bad parents for what could be a momentary lapse in judgment. I have no idea how they parent on a day-to-day basis, so I do not feel qualified to brand them.

And I'm not sorry to point out that many people have the opinion that restaurant in a family destination that provides special things for kids IS automatically considered a family place. That is an opinion that it does not mean that, and is no more or less valid than the other opinion that it does mean it is automatically a place for kids..

Edited to add: the OP clarifies that she did not intend to impugn, malign or judge who is a bad parent, she was questioning a particular child on a particular night in a particular restaurant.

 

[Wee Annie]

I can't believe that I'm allowing myself to weigh in on this again (I swore I wouldn't!).

Deb -- First, I'm so happy that your son is doing so much better! That's wonderful, and I'm sure it took a lot of hard work and love to get him there!

I'm one of the people that weighed in on the side of people trying to manage their childrens' outbursts/bad behavior in restaurants. Sure they're allowed there, but they shouldn't be allowed to run around and harass other people, etc. I do want to make the point, though, that I think that most people who have had children, whether special needs or not, most likely would never assume that a child is a "brat" just because they have a tantrum (or at least I hope so, givem my childrens' past history!). Children have tantrums. It's a fact. They melt down. Sometimes as parents we can calm them down. Sometimes we can't. I had a daughter that you couldn't (and who has some developmental delays), and was told that I should just let her bang her head away in as comfortable a place as possible until she tired herself out. That being said, I, like you, realized that a restaurant was not a good enviroment for this, and would remove her under those circs.

I think that that most telling part of your post is when you described what you did as a parent when things "went array" in a restaurant. You reacted. You tried to figure out what to do. I think all would agree that that's good parenting (actually, with a special needs child, I'd say excellent parenting).

All most people here are asking is actually best phrased as a request not that children not be brought to nice restaurants or act as automatons and never have melt downs, but that parents be considerate of others when that happens. Several people have posted anecdotes about out-of-control children who were clearly learning by example from their parents, since their parents seemed to care less and ignore the situation. And I have to say from my experience, this is, unfortunately, not that infrequent.

As long as I see a parent doing something to help ameliorate the situation, I don't judge. But boy do I fume when I see rude parents. It's not the children that are rude, it's the parents.

I have no idea whether these thoughts will be "attacked," but this is my opinion. Judgments are a fact of life for all of us -- at any given time in the day we are making judgments about situations, people, etc. It's how we make decisions. So a blanket response of "you shouldn't ever judge" is not realistic, and the people who say that are not being honest with themselves if they think that they don't (this comment is not aimed at you, Deb).

Thanks for hearing me out.

 

[Ariel Wanna-be]

Perfectly stated, Annie.

However, I think that there are some who are more concerned with getting the last word (wether it makes sense or not) than they are with resolving this.

Just watch...

 

[Wee Annie]

Thanks! It's always heartening to have someone agree with you before you get raked across the coals....

 

[FLAsomeday]

You ask a 3 yr old, where do you want to go for dinner honey? And they say California Grille? I'm just in the mood for sushi, goat cheese ravioli and foie gras? Y'all are cracking me up here!!!

a little arrogant, dontcha think? Yes, my 3 year old loves the dressing up, the atmosphere, the whole experience. So, before you write, think.

 

[robinb]

This WAS NOT supposed to be the main point in THIS discussion.
{... snip ...}
The vast majority of children can and do behave perfectly in these enviroments, but there are plenty who can not. It is rude to let any member of your party affect another's meal, whether it is an unruly child, an unwashed adult, a loud braggert, or a drunken fool.

TLEV, you're new here. Welcome . Welcome back if you have been here before.

Let me say this simply. Threads here on the DIS, especially threads that go on for pages and pages get a life of their own. The topic of the thread changes, much like a game of Telephone. You have explained your points and thoughts very thoroughly.

My Points, from the very beginning have been (1) Kids will be kids and (2) People have different tolerance levels for childlike behavior. I may sit next to a whining 3 year old whose parents try to "shush" him. I feel sorry for the child and the parents and I smile in a "BTDT" kind of way. My meal is not affected. Someone else on the other side of that family is less tolerant, they feel sorry for themselves and scowl at the offending parents. Their meal is affected. Same child, same behavior, same parents.

Everyone on this thread agrees that outrageous, out of control behavior is not acceptable. But what behavior is acceptable? What is not? As tw1nsmom said in her post that I quoted: where do we draw the line? And how do we, as parents, make sure our kids follow all the rules of all the people who dine around us? The short answer is: We can't. We can only do our best in each individual situation. Sometimes my best is not your best. That doesn't make me a bad parent and neither does it make you a better parent.

 

[chobie]

Perfectly stated, Annie.

However, I think that there are some who are more concerned with getting the last word (wether it makes sense or not) than they are with resolving this.

Just watch...

How does one resolve the several issues that have been brought up? For example:

Do children even belong in some of these places?

What constitutes bad parenting?

What constitutes showing respect? Not bringing kids to certain places or being tolerant of parents who do?


Annie: I agree with everything you said. You can't tell people not to judge but you can ask people what their credentials are to make them the judge and you can state why yourself would not judge the parents mentioned by others in this post.

 

[Ariel Wanna-be]

...see?

 

[robinb]

...see?

And who has the last word now?

Opps. I guess it's ME!

 

[chobie]

And who has the last word now?

Opps. I guess it's ME!

 

[Ariel Wanna-be]

Yes it is!

Well, maybe not...

 

[PamNC]

really I do! As a couple w/o kids, we often ask this same question when dining at say CA Grille or Yachtsman Steakhouse. I don't think the kids enjoy it either. But, Disney is Disney, and kids are kids so I try to not let it get in the way of us enjoying our dining experience.

pamNC

 

[chobie]

Yes it is!

Well, maybe not...

 

[Ariel Wanna-be]

 

[Wee Annie]

LOL

And I'm usually so good at getting in the last word myself!

 

[chobie]

judging, kids menu, subjecting

I feel so much better now.