LET THE FLAMES BEGIN>>>adult only dining

[lyeag]

I don't presume to know the exact intent of what the OP meant by "subjecting". I didn't take it as it was torture for the child to be there. I took it more as why would you continue a bad situation for a prolonged period of time especially if it was disruptive to others in a public (and expensive) place.

 

[lyeag]

so, we should expect what after the outburst occurs, and the situation has been monitored, and attemps at correction have failed? Too bad for the other people in the restaurant, they have to sit and suffer? Anyone with kids knows sometimes our best efforts don't work.

 

[chobie]

why would the parents subject their child to a restaurant like this?

I think its pretty clear that the OP does not think the child should have been at Jiko in the first place. Instead of maybe being honest about that, she appears like she is attemping to cast doubt on the parenting skills of those parents that would bring a kid to a place like that. Those of us who have and who would, have a right to feel we are being maligned.

 

[chobie]

so, we should expect what after the outburst occurs, and the situation has been monitored, and attemps at correction have failed? Too bad for the other people in the restaurant, they have to sit and suffer? Anyone with kids knows sometimes our best efforts don't work.

I personally would, and have, left when it became clear the kids behavior would not change. I also would not notice or care if another parent chose a different route them myself and I would not feel angry or hostile toward them. At WDW anyway. That is my opinion. The other people don't have to sit and suffer, they have the choice of leaving as well or having gone to a place that either does not allow children or strongly discourages it by say, not offering high chair's and/or kids menus. JMHO

 

[lyeag]

I think in that mood on that day maybe the parents should have thought twice about bring an upset/tired child to a nice place. I don't think the op meant all children, in all situations. It was a specific indcident that clearly was not working for the child or the op. "Subjecting" a tired child to a long dinner in a place where good manners are the norm is a tall order for any child. I don't know every detail of the story, I wasn't there. But I have taken my children to nice places and I have had them act up to the point of out of control. Their behavior is my responsiblity in public places.

 

[chobie]

I think in that mood on that day maybe the parents should have thought twice about bring an upset/tired child to a nice place. I don't think the op meant all children, in all situations. It was a specific indcident that clearly was not working for the child or the op. "Subjecting" a tired child to a long dinner in a place where good manners are the norm is a tall order for any child. I don't know every detail of the story, I wasn't there. But I have taken my children to nice places and I have had them act up to the point of out of control. Their behavior is my responsiblity in public places.

You also don't know if the child had been acting fine up until the Op was seated next her or whether the parents had every reason to believe that the child was up to going out that night for dinner. Neither you nor the OP have any way of knowing if that child was tired on that night. As far as it not working for the OP, why did she not propose that Disney offer more adult only venues rather than question a parent's decision?

 

[dwkwootton]

Now the accusation is that the OP is dishonest and sneaky? Wow ... and who's personally assaulting who?

My daughter loved caviar at the age of 1 but never asked to go to Le Bec Fin. There's a big difference between a child enjoying a gourmet dish and wanting to sit quietly for a couple hours and dine in style. Very few children want to do that, whether they have a sophisticated palate or not. These kids are going to have a tough time in school unless they go with quite the fine lunch packed.

How's this for a suggestion ... if you're trying to teach your children to dine well in an upscale restaurant, why not play fancy restaurant at home for their lessions? Or "suffer" at one of many good family oriented sit down restaurants at DW during your practice sessions.

By the way ..... goat cheese is very high in cholestrol. Foie gras is even worse.

 

[chobie]

Instead of maybe being honest about that, she appears like she is attemping to cast doubt on the parenting skills of those parents that would bring a kid to a place like that. Those of us who have and who would, have a right to feel we are being maligned.

I said two key words: MAYBE AND APPEARS. That is what I read into her post. Other people have read into the OP that the child that night was tired or bored or cranky or bratty or the parents where rude or bad,. Since it did appear to me that she does not believe a 3 year old belongs at a place like that and I once brought a three year old into Artist Point, I did take offense and feel assaulted.

 

[lyeag]

Ok, but you don't know if that child was a holy terror all afternoon or not either if you want to get that way. A whining crying child can be many things. Tired is one. Sick is one. Over indulged is one. Hungry is one. Wet is one. And a few others I won't mention.
IF the child was a wonderful angel up to the point of the crying and whining, the parent should have taken steps to deal with it. If they didn't work and the child was disruptive to others and they let it go on at levels that were disruptive then hey, they were rude IMHO. It is hard to believe that something as simple as courtesy to others is generating such a discussion. People have the right to take their kids to dinner. They also have the responsibility to make sure their children aren't causing a scene.

 

[Ariel Wanna-be]

As far as it not working for the OP, why did she not propose that Disney offer more adult only venues rather than question a parent's decision?

Maybe she didn't think Disney needed more adult venues. Maybe she thought the parents needed to parent their child. (I'm just guessing, since she seems to have bowed out of this.)

To me, this shouldn't be Disney's problem. They shouldn't be held responsible for keeping adults and children separated. It shouldn't be too much to ask that tantrum-throwing children are the responsibility of that child's parents.

People are still pretending that expecting responsible behavior from parents is equal to wanting there to be no children in sight in Disney restaurants.

How about we take a poll:

1) Raise your hand if you think children should be welcome (and expected) in Disney World (including restaurants), and that parents should make a reasonable effort to restrain/correct/discipline them as needed.

2) Now raise your hand if you think children should be banned from Disney, should be seen and not heard, and should refrain from making eye contact unless directly spoken to.

Wow. It looks like it is close to unanimous! (Notice I said "close.")

 

[lyeag]

Short answer, they were hungry. Longer answer (1) They didn't want to leave their child with a baby sitter, (2) They didn't know how s/he would react until they got there (3) it is Disney World and I expect crying and whining children at all restaurants except Victoria and Albert's.

Good luck!

I'm sure you'll have the Practically Perfect Parents Squad here soon to agree with you. My kid was the fussy one.

Here you go. She said the child was hungry. She said it was her child.

 

[chobie]

Ok, but you don't know if that child was a holy terror all afternoon or not either if you want to get that way. A whining crying child can be many things. Tired is one. Sick is one. Over indulged is one. Hungry is one. Wet is one. And a few others I won't mention.
IF the child was a wonderful angel up to the point of the crying and whining, the parent should have taken steps to deal with it. If they didn't work and the child was disruptive to others and they let it go on at levels that were disruptive then hey, they were rude IMHO. It is hard to believe that something as simple as courtesy to others is generating such a discussion. People have the right to take their kids to dinner. They also have the responsibility to make sure their children aren't causing a scene.

I agree with all that. Some people feel that vhildren should not be brought to these place at all and have stated such. That also seems to me and others that is the OP's opinion as well.

I disagree with children not being brought to certain Disney restaurants that offer kids menus.

I disagree that just because a child whines or cries during a dinner they are completely ruining other people's meal.. Depending on how loud and prolonged the crying was would determine if it bothered me as diner. Some kids talking voices sound whining by nature, Its annoying but I don't view as a bad parenting.

I agree children should not be allowed to run all over because its dangerous and annoying.

I agree that WDW is a great place to see out of control children as well as intolerant adults.

I agree thatt this thread has taken many diffrent turns and twist based on what was said and not said in the OP. I agree that we will all have some disagreements on some of the issues brought up here.

 

[chobie]

Here you go. She said the child was hungry. She said it was her child.

She meant that was what was up with her child on some occasions, not that the child at Jiko that night with the OP was her child! If you read further Robin B says she has not brought her kid to a nice place since she turned 4. Try again.

 

[lyeag]

Missed that post, sorry. Then gee,who knows what the problem was, except that in the op's opinion it went on too long, and that(assuming she is correct and not just grumpy), IMHO is bad parenting. Flame away.

 

[chobie]

Missed that post, sorry. Then gee,who knows what the problem was, except that in the op's opinion it went on too long, and that(assuming she is correct and not just grumpy), IMHO is bad parenting. Flame away.

IMHO its being judgmental, intolerant and unrealistic of the OP. Flame away indeed.

 

[taximomfor4]

...as well as entertaining reading

Sometimes, though, parents are trying the OTHER approach to temper tantrums -- SOME kids (my oldest dd, when she was younger) will take the power they get from causing you to leave somewhere and RUUUUNNNNNNN
with it! Then, forever after (or it seems like it), every time you take that child somewhere they would rather not be, they have the fit again. Flame away, I took her to several psychologists for years in the attempt to find a discipline method for her.

BUT, that said, that is a 3 yr old having a temper tantrum. In a restaurant, with this type of child (my dd), I would walk her to the bathroom (or the parking lot, whatever!) and have "time out." Away from diners. If my child was just running around, climbing tables, etc, that is different -- that child might need a different form of discipline.

I just wanted to throw out there the possibility that a particular child might not be the one to take out and leave. Some kids even need their tantrums to be completely ignored. No reaction whatsoever. We are doing that with our 6 yr old who cries LOUDLY and DRAMATICALLY about everything. But no, I would not ignore it in a restaurant, lol.

That said, we always take our kids to restaurants -- all kinds. We get tons of compliments about their amazing behavior. But *G A S P* even MY "angels" have had moments, and 1x in a store I overheard one employee say to another "Why do people have kids if they can't CONTROL them?" Those employees had no idea that the misbehavior (severe bickering btw 3 and 4 yo) was a complete fluke, even shocking me. So just so you all know, my kids, as great as they are in restaurants, will not be partaking of fine dining at WDW this year. I just don't know that they will all four behave on that particular day, at that particular meal, lol.

Just was chiming in to ramble, and let you all know that opinions, whether I agree with them or not, DO matter to me!

Beth

 

[tw1nsmom]

OK, I'll apologize in advance if this has already been covered (I read the first six pages, but didn't have enough time to read the rest). If you've already talked about this let me know.

I think one of the problems is in the perception of what constitutes good behavior. Now, I think most of us can agree that climbing under tables, running around, major temper tantrums...would be considered bad behavior. But what is your interpretation of good behavior?

I get complimented all the time on how well behaved my children are in public/restaurants. However, there have been times that I and others thought they were well behaved and I still got nasty looks/comments from someone. My son is a loud talker. He's polite, happy, good table manners...just loud. His disability makes it hard for him to figure out voice modulation/volume. I do remind him to use his quiet voice, but there are times when he's a little loud (I know adults who are louder). We don't go to fancy restaurants, but I've had people mumble about "making children behave in public" and giving dirty looks. Other things my children do: Stand up next to their chair but sit right back down when reminded, bicker back and forth but stop when told, get excited about dessert, have been known to spill drink (so have I).

I guess my point is where do we draw the line? There seems to be a group of people (not talking about the people on this thread per se) that are offended by the mere presence of children in almost any restaurant. They also hold children to a higher standard than they hold most adults. They're assuming that a child in a restaurant is going to misbehave and when the slightest deviation in their Emily Post behavior occurs in the child they pounce on the opportunity to criticize the children and parents.

 

[chobie]

OK, I'll apologize in advance if this has already been covered (I read the first six pages, but didn't have enough time to read the rest). If you've already talked about this let me know.

I think one of the problems is in the perception of what constitutes good behavior. Now, I think most of us can agree that climbing under tables, running around, major temper tantrums...would be considered bad behavior. But what is your interpretation of good behavior?

I get complimented all the time on how well behaved my children are in public/restaurants. However, there have been times that I and others thought they were well behaved and I still got nasty looks/comments from someone. My son is a loud talker. He's polite, happy, good table manners...just loud. His disability makes it hard for him to figure out voice modulation/volume. I do remind him to use his quiet voice, but there are times when he's a little loud (I know adults who are louder). We don't go to fancy restaurants, but I've had people mumble about "making children behave in public" and giving dirty looks. Other things my children do: Stand up next to their chair but sit right back down when reminded, bicker back and forth but stop when told, get excited about dessert, have been known to spill drink (so have I).

I guess my point is where do we draw the line? There seems to be a group of people (not talking about the people on this thread per se) that are offended by the mere presence of children in almost any restaurant. They also hold children to a higher standard than they hold most adults. They're assuming that a child in a restaurant is going to misbehave and when the slightest deviation in their Emily Post behavior occurs in the child they pounce on the opportunity to criticize the children and parents.

Thank you for bringing yet another reason a kid may not appear to be behaving according to what others consider to be appropriate behavior. As I sat here reading about how awful it is for "children to be running around at restaurants" and even agreeing with it myself, I wondered if there where any parents out there with a disabled child who would be thrilled to have a child that could run around at a restaurant and annoy people.

 

[lyeag]

I think you are enjoying the sport of healthy debate a bit too much and taking it a bit too personally. You don't know the op, I don't know the mother and I have tried to allow for wiggle room in the situation because we weren't there. You however are implying the op is an a person who strongly dislikes children and is intolerant of them in general. It is great if you have the patience of a saint. Not everyone does. It is fine if your expectations of children are not that of the op's. Being overly agressive on a board where others are expressing opinions that don't fall perfectly in line with yours is sad.

And I don't feel the need to beat a dead horse, so I won't comment on this subject anymore.

 

[chobie]

I think you are enjoying the sport of healthy debate a bit too much and taking it a bit too personally. You don't know the op, I don't know the mother and I have tried to allow for wiggle room in the situation because we weren't there. You however are implying the op is an a person who strongly dislikes children and is intolerant of them in general. It is great if you have the patience of a saint. Not everyone does. It is fine if your expectations of children are not that of the op's. Being overly aggressive on a board where others are expressing opinions that don't fall perfectly in line with yours is sad.

And I don't feel the need to beat a dead horse, so I won't comment on this subject anymore.

If failing to fall in-line with majority's opinion is considered to be overly aggressive, so I'll wear that title. I did not imply the OP strongly dislike children you read that into it because you disliked my opinion. I said the OP seemed to be clear that a small child did not belong in that place and that is what I disagreed with along with all the value judgments on people's parenting skills based on where they chose to dine with their kids.