lesbians need not apply

It seems like a lot of trouble to regularly attend a church just so you can "hate" gay people.

You seem to disagree with the Christian lifestyle, does that mean you hate Christians?

"So" they can hate gay people? Nah. Gives SOME a justification for their hateful actions in this country, though.

Hate Christians? Nope. Just dislike the hate by SOME. :thumbsup2
 
Hey I did not get into USC, they must hate poor people.
 
Wait a minute....there really isn't Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? :sad: ;)

Of course there is! I meant to say....the Boogieman. Because he isn't real. ;)

It's just a matter of belief! Now, if you ask me, I believe Santa Claus chooses to be Santa and live in the North Pole by choice. I think it's wrong of Santa Claus to act on his urges to go down chimneys and bring children presents.
 

It is funny how this topic comes up every month. I guess that we have some Disney board posters who scan the newspapers looking for church/gay items, just so they can post a ‘See Here!’ thread and then watch the arguments start.

I hope that most adults here would agree that American citizens have the right to worship according to the dictates of their own conscious. It is no mistake or coincidence that the language “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” is in the First Amendment, or that ‘religion’ is listed prior to speech and press.

Our ‘freedom of religion’ would be meaningless if any level of government (city, state, federal) or even private citizens could dictate what a particular church must, or must not, believe, or to ‘penalized’ a church for holding a belief.

Many Christian churches believe that homosexuality is a ‘sin’. For a person to hold this belief does not necessarily mean that person is a ‘hatemonger’. For instance, the mother of one of the judges I work for died yesterday. She attended church and believed that homosexuality is forbidden by the Bible. However, those who knew her realized that she was truly one of those who ‘hates the sin but loves the sinner’. She was 100 years old and had attended her particular brand of church for over eight decades. I would have been very surprised if she could have completely shaken off that many decades of doctrine.

When I read statements by people condemning a person’s religious beliefs I say to myself “here is a person who demands that all people believe the same as he or her; this person does not believe in freedom of religion”. After all, many churches have all sorts of beliefs: adultery is a sin; stealing is a sin; coveting your neighbor’s *** is a sin; being married more than once is a sin; using birth control is a sin; not visiting prisoners in prison (as Jesus apparently commanded) is a sin; drinking alcohol is a sin; not drinking alcohol is a sin. The list is as varied as people are.

Hence, I do not condemn this church for expelling the two girls. The congregation of this church holds certain beliefs which the two girls violated. Indeed, my approval or disapproval of those beliefs is meaningless. It is this church’s absolutely right, under our Constitution, to hold their beliefs and to act upon them.

That said, since I do believe in civil rights for gays (my support began in 1976, my first year of college, before gay rights became fashionable; my roommate was gay although he had to keep it pretty well under wraps in those days) I certainly would not send my children to this church. I also think the parents of these girls should have realized, if they knew of their daughter’s sexual orientation, that sending these girls to a church school was not too wise.

In final, I hold strong beliefs that our laws should not discriminate against a person due to said person’s sexual orientation. However, I also strongly believe in the freedom of religious worship.
 
I'm also not surprised at all that a number of people on this thread seem to be expressing no disapproval or outrage at all for what the school did. Lots of Americans find nothing at all wrong with treating gay people like crap. This is why the right to discriminate against gay people has been so well protected for so long in many conservative states and federally by the republican party.
......

And hopefully the rest of the country will wake up and will begin to treat discrimination against glbt people in the same way that we treat discrimination on the basis of race, sex, etc.

for the first part, I do believe that what they did was wrong, however as a PRIVATE institution, they get to make their own rules. Do I like it? no Do I agree with them? no Unfortunately though, I have to agree with their rights as a private institution to make the rules that they want. It's a slippery slope as to who gets to control who otherwise, and whose views on subjects are more correct. I'd rather not head down that path. It's not a gay vs. straight thing at all.

As for the second part, I have to say, every job that I've ever applied, and the college I went to as well, had a non discrimination disclaimer that applied to (among other things) gender and sexual orientation, so I never realized that that was not nationwide.



True, but after the school had expeleld the girls I guess it wouldn't have been a secret (if it was) that either girl was gay. I just would have let it go and enrolled my child in a public school at that point, I wouldn't have sued.

no doubt about that, but the parents may not have known before, when the decision was made to send the kids to that school. I don't know that I would have sued either, although they are certainly getting a lot of press over it, and maybe that was the intent- to bring attention to the discrimination and create a dialogue about it. They've certainly achieved that.



I did...and I explained the differences between the different synods, so not to confuse people about all Lutherans thinking like this. We're a fun bunch, really. Anyways, like Catholics, just because you associate yourself with a certain denomination (or in this case synod) doesn't mean that you believe in everything they stand for...

I'm a former Lutheran. I do understand the different synods. My Dad died, my mom started taking us to her new husband's church after she remarried. It was a Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod. We were very involved- got confirmed there, did the youth group thing, youth retreats, etc.... however when my stepfather left my mother we (my mother, my brothers and I) received a letter basically ex-communicating us from the church. Strict, to me, would be an understatement to describe that particular church. I still don't understand how innocent children are supposed to be responsible for the affairs (literally) of their step father. I definitely understand that not ALL Lutheran churches are that way. I just hate the assumption that a lot of negative things get attributed to Catholicism, and wanted to clear that up. And yes, just because you belong to a certain church does not necessarily mean you believe every single thing that everyone else in that church does.
 
so, because these students are lesbians, they don't deserve an education?! i understand the inappropriateness of PDA, but that goes for ALL high school students.. all PEOPLE, actually. lol.. i seriously do not believe these students should have been expelled because they like one another! god, or no god. support or no support. against or for.

every student deserves an education. their sexual orientation is NOT up for debate by the school board, of all people. ::yes:: what an embarrassment. it's hard enough to have the courage to state that you are homosexual. and when these girls state that they are, their biggest fear is met: intolerance.

will bi-racial couples be expelled?! *rolls eyes* does EVERYone have to be a cheerleader & fall in love with the captain of the football team?! give me a break. :faint:

i don't care if a student feels attracted to DUCKS, they still need an education. ;)

:rainbow:
 
Ah yes, once again "Christians" proving what Christian love is all about. Exclusion. I am sure Jesus is proud.
 
It's just a matter of belief! Now, if you ask me, I believe Santa Claus chooses to be Santa and live in the North Pole by choice. I think it's wrong of Santa Claus to act on his urges to go down chimneys and bring children presents.

For sure! And I think it's all our business what Santa and Mrs Clause do behind closed igloos. You know, that lifestyle they have and whatnot.
 
This thread reminded me of a situation from my private school years almost 20 years ago. I thought I would share it.

I attended a very small private school my 7th through 10th grade years. I say small school meaning about 30 students total in the high school. In the middle of my 9th grade year, two junior girls admitted to being gay and that they were indeed a couple. The news sent a shock wave through the school, but the school did not kick them out. However the school suddenly had a situation that they had to deal with. These girls were not just gay teenagers. They were a dating couple. The school had to quickly address their relationship as a gay couple in issues regarding personal privacy and age-appropriate situations while dating. The school thought that it was inappropriate for them to be allowed to undress in the presence of one another for gym class since they were a dating couple. We all changed in one open room. We did not have stalls. Special arrangements were made for them. Restroom rules had to be rethought for them also. They were found kissing in the girls' restroom on several occassions. Not really a big deal, but the girls' restroom became an "acceptable private place" for them to meet. As a small private school, we were able to take many out of town/overnight field trips, and new rules had to be made regarding sleeping/showering arrangements. All of these changes occurred suddenly, and both of the young ladies received a lot of unwanted attention over it. Eventually both of the young ladies left the school.

IT is a very sad story but very true.
 


I don't argue the courts decison.

But that doesn't make me think the Church is being Christian like for their behavior. What would Jesus do? Not that.


This reminds me of my view on gay marriage,
I say all marriages should be civil unions. A contract between two people.Gay or straight.

I have no problem whatsoever that a church not recognize the union.

What I am ambivalent on is if a church discriminates in such a manner, particularly where a school and kids are involved.....if they should be able to recieve any federal funding or enjoy any tax exempt status. That is my personal grey area.
 
The True Meaning of Sexual Deviant:someone who worries about what is going on in consenting people's bedrooms
 
Ok. So. This is a very strict Lutheran school. So, one could also understand that they are very strict on obeying the orders of God as set forth in the Bible.

I'd like to see if they follow these "rules" from the Bible:

Leviticus 1:9 states that the smell of a burning bull is pleasing to the lord. BARBEQUE TIME!

Leviticus 25:44 states that slavery is legal, so long as your slaves come from neighboring countries. So, are this school's slaves from Mexico or Canada?

Leviticus 10-16 says that anybody who takes the name of God in vain should be put to death. I've apparently escaped death inumberable times.

Leviticus 11:10 tells us not to eat shrimp because it's an abomination unto God. There go my delicious appetizers at the 4th of July party...

Leviticus 19:19 forbids the wearing of garments of mixed fibers (ie: a cotton/polyester blend t-shirt). Organic Cotton tees, here I come!

Ecclesiastes 9:8 says that we should always wear white and anoint our heads with oil. Do these students have a uniform? Is it all white?

Deuteronomy 25:11-12. "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." Yeah, no. This one speaks for itself.

Numbers 5:11-20 dictates how to tell if your wife is cheating on you. Give her a mixture of water, barely, and dust. If her stomach swells, she's a cheater. In which case you should stone her and the man/woman you suspect her of cheating with. (according to Leviticus 20:10).

Exodus 21:5 says that if your slave is set free after 6 years and decides to stay, you should bore a hole in his ear. Is this the Mexican slave or the Canadian slave?

1 Corinthians 11:6 says that if a woman doesn't cover her head she should cut off her hair. I hope all those girls are either bald, or own scarves.

1 Timothy 2:12-14 says, and I quote: "12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
Must be an all-male run sort of place.

Sometimes, religion just doesn't make sense to me. If those girls were expelled for going against Christian beliefs, do they follow all the Christian beliefs (the Bible) or do they just pick and choose which ones to follow?

By the way, if you want more silly Bible passages, read "The Year of Living Biblically" by AJ Jacobs. It's great for a good laugh.
 
Ok. So. This is a very strict Lutheran school. So, one could also understand that they are very strict on obeying the orders of God as set forth in the Bible.

I'd like to see if they follow these "rules" from the Bible:

Leviticus 1:9 states that the smell of a burning bull is pleasing to the lord. BARBEQUE TIME!

Leviticus 25:44 states that slavery is legal, so long as your slaves come from neighboring countries. So, are this school's slaves from Mexico or Canada?

Leviticus 10-16 says that anybody who takes the name of God in vain should be put to death. I've apparently escaped death inumberable times.

Leviticus 11:10 tells us not to eat shrimp because it's an abomination unto God. There go my delicious appetizers at the 4th of July party...

Leviticus 19:19 forbids the wearing of garments of mixed fibers (ie: a cotton/polyester blend t-shirt). Organic Cotton tees, here I come!

Ecclesiastes 9:8 says that we should always wear white and anoint our heads with oil. Do these students have a uniform? Is it all white?

Deuteronomy 25:11-12. "11 If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity." Yeah, no. This one speaks for itself.

Numbers 5:11-20 dictates how to tell if your wife is cheating on you. Give her a mixture of water, barely, and dust. If her stomach swells, she's a cheater. In which case you should stone her and the man/woman you suspect her of cheating with. (according to Leviticus 20:10).

Exodus 21:5 says that if your slave is set free after 6 years and decides to stay, you should bore a hole in his ear. Is this the Mexican slave or the Canadian slave?

1 Corinthians 11:6 says that if a woman doesn't cover her head she should cut off her hair. I hope all those girls are either bald, or own scarves.

1 Timothy 2:12-14 says, and I quote: "12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."
Must be an all-male run sort of place.

Sometimes, religion just doesn't make sense to me. If those girls were expelled for going against Christian beliefs, do they follow all the Christian beliefs (the Bible) or do they just pick and choose which ones to follow?

By the way, if you want more silly Bible passages, read "The Year of Living Biblically" by AJ Jacobs. It's great for a good laugh.


Well if you want to learn about Christianty, perhaps the first thing you should learn is that Jesus released people from the Old Laws in Leviticus.
 
It seems to me that there are two issues:

1) Should the school have expelled the girls? I don't think so.

2) Should the school have the right to expel the girls? I think so. Civil rights are important. People should have freedom of association. Without it, we all lose in the long run.

Sometimes supporting civil rights means being respectful of the rights of those that we find repugnant.
 
Well if you want to learn about Christianty, perhaps the first thing you should learn is that Jesus released people from the Old Laws in Leviticus.

So take out the ones I posted from Leviticus. That still leaves several.

And I do like to think I know a little about Christianity. Unless my 8 years of Catholic school were for nothing. And yes, I recognize that Catholic school =/= Christian teaching. But a lot of the "values" I learned there can be paralleled. And considering that before we even started learning about the foundation of Catholicism we had to study the foundation of the Christian religion.
 
Okay, so can someone explain this?: :confused:

Real Christians Don't Gay Bash

Progressive Christians tend to be nonjudgmental and to feel that challenging the intolerance of others is itself intolerant. For that reason we often sit by silently when Fundamentalist Christians criticize homosexual persons. We tend to think of this as being open minded.

Not that long ago, it was considered consistent to be a Christian, and yet, hold slaves. The day came when slavery was understood as an affront to the gospel itself. I want to suggest that the day has come when Christians must declare that gay bashing is an attack on the gospel and that real Christians do not participate in any form of discrimination.

Several years ago, I was asked to do the funeral of a gay man who had been beaten to death in a hate crime. At that time, I had never thought deeply about the danger many gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people face in this culture. That week as I worked on the service, I kept hearing a local "Christian" radio station blaming gay and lesbian people for everything wrong in America. By the end of the week I understood the link between religious hate speech and the funeral I was performing.

I know that critics of homosexuality do not consider themselves to be hateful. They would say they "love the sinner but hate the sin." If the shoe were on the other foot, however, and someone were attacking their families, trying to take their children away, and constantly working to pass legislation to deprive them of basic civil rights, at some point they would understand that "homophobia" is too mild a word for such harassment. "Hatred" is the only proper term.

I was raised in Dallas, Texas and had classmates who were in the Klan. I remember that they did not consider themselves to be attacking other people. They perceived themselves to be defenders of Christian America. Their "religion" consisted of an unrelenting attack on people who were black, Jewish or homosexual. If anyone challenged these views, these Klan members considered themselves under attack and believed that their right to free exercise of religion was being threatened. In other words, they felt that harassing other people was a protected expression of their own religious faith.

In the Gospel, biblical literalists and judgmental people were the negative example in many of the stories. The point of those stories was to teach us the hypocrisy of judgmental religion. When a woman was caught in adultery, the Biblical literalists lined up to protect family values. They pointed out that the Bible literally says that adulterers are to be stoned. If Jesus took the Bible seriously, they claimed, he would have to participate in the mandated biblical punishment of an adulteress.

Instead of following scripture, Jesus tells the woman to get her life together and tells everyone else to drop their stones of judgment. The only way to take this story seriously is to conclude that real Christians don't use the bible to condemn other people.

It violates the teaching of Christ to say that God will get angry if America does not confront homosexuality as a sin. Jesus did not mention homosexuality and it is a lie to say he did. Furthermore, Jesus said "judge not or you will be judged." These false prophets are saying "judge or else you will be judged."

Jesus was kind and understanding, but he was not silent about those who abused the vulnerable. He called them "wolves in sheep's clothing." Christians must follow the example of Jesus and confront those vicious predators who use the Christian religion as a camouflage for bullying. We must be as understanding and kind as we can be, but to be tolerant of the oppression of others is not true tolerance.

I believe the time has come to say that genuine followers of Jesus Christ do not participate in discrimination against gay and lesbian persons. Is it intolerant to challenge intolerance? Are we doing the same thing as those we are challenging?

Gay bashing is not just an opinion, it is an assault. Just as the Klan did, religious fundamentalists have a right to believe that homosexuality is a sin. They even have a right to preach a message of hate. But when they harass people in public, it is time for Christians to rise to challenge their intolerance. We have an obligation to protect our neighbors from harassment and slander, especially when it is done in our name.

It is time to say that gay bashing is not only wrong, it is unchristian. If Christianity is grace, then judgment is the ultimate apostasy. If Christianity is love, then cruelty is the ultimate heresy.

The Rev. Jim Rigby is pastor of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, TX, and a longtime activist in movements concerned with gender, racial, and economic justice. This summer he is finishing a book on principles for a New Reformation. Rigby can be reached at jrigby0000@aol.com.
 


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