Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Doesn't it bother any Kerry supporters that he missed 76 percent of the meetings while on the Senate Intelligence committee? And all of them in the year after the 93 WTC attack. Yet he says now that he'll immediately reform the intelligence community.

Or is that another pack of Bush "lies"?

Set me straight please.

Yes, but if you looked deeper you'll see that he attended the "closed" meetings. You just have to dig a little deeper. You can always find out the truth if you do.

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Yes, but if you looked deeper you'll see that he attended the "closed" meetings. You just have to dig a little deeper. You can always find out the truth if you do.

The "closed" meetings that he won't release the attendence records?

Those meetings?

 

[Laz]

Originally posted by Beth76
Where do you go to find the "absolute" truth anyway?

Great question!

I read or heard somewhere (probably a TV show ) that truth is a 3 edged sword: Side one's truth, Side two's truth, and the real truth which lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[peachgirl]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Perhaps you missed the joke.

Not really, I'm getting pretty good at figuring things out these days.

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[Teejay32]

Firm anti-Kerry voter.

 

[spearenb]

Originally posted by treesinger
Let's be blunt. Bush may be a little more fair IMO, but he is just as much for HIS interests as any other Pres. would be for their own. The USA is already the whipping boy, though I'm ptoud that we can stand up against world opinion and act on our conscience. Kerry will be just as effective as Bush, but in the areas Kerry cares sabout and the direction he wants to take us.

1. Voting Record. Proof that he wants to reduce the military and intelligence budgets and the like. Abscence of casting votes tells me that he really doesn't care.

2. Attendance Record. How many days will he actually show up in the oval office if he is elected? Again, if he doesn't care enough to attend meetings and cast votes on important matters (no matter if they are just procedural), will he care if he is in office?

3. Refilming Battle Scenes. Isn't it kinda strange that someone would do this if they weren't into theirself? Come on, to go back to the battle scene and refilm the battle with yourself being the hero? Strange, strange, strange.

4. War Record. He brought it up and wont let it go. Even though 6 or 7 servicemen, who were on his ship, stand behind him. I think the more telling story is the 200+ other servicemen saying the opposite.

5. Post War Record. He didn't have the judgement to notice that what he was doing was hurting the USA. He was young yes, and he should have learned (as we all have) that what happened at the end of the V'Nam War was wrong. But he hasn't. By taking the tact he has, he is totally undermining the Iraqi effort thereby putting soldiers in more harm than they could be otherwise.

6. Flip-Flopping. I don't care if someone points out Bush has done it also. Most, if not all of Kerry's, it seems, have been in front of campain contributors and special interests. He warps his thoughts to his audience and doesn't take a definitive view. Bush's flip-flops are probably comprimises (as I don't know what goes on behind closed doors) but they all seem to be for the best this country must have.

7. Arrogance. Stories are all over the place that he treats commoners as scum. I don't think I have ever heard stories on Bush. I know others have said that Bush is arrogant too. And I sort of agree with them. However, his arrogance is only seen, IMHO, when he is being challenged by world leaders and political opponents. And to tell you the truth, I think all of us want our leader to be a little arrogant to these also. But I don't see Kerry as being arrogant by standing up to foreign leaders. I think he will back down.

Detailed enough? JMHO, of course.

 

[Saffron]

spearenb -- while you might have given detail, some of what you posted isn't factual. Some of what you posted, especially numbers 3 and 4 (I don't know about the rest), have been debunked over and over again. So much so, that they aren't even "stories" anymore. When the Bush administration says something, you listen, right? Forget all the facts that debunk your #3 and #4, just listen to the Bush administration. Even Bush said he won't question Kerry's military service.

But number 5? I don't understand that one at all! Could you clarify that, if you want, please.

 

[spearenb]

Originally posted by Saffron
spearenb -- while you might have given detail, some of what you posted isn't factual. Some of what you posted, especially numbers 3 and 4 (I don't know about the rest), have been debunked over and over again. So much so, that they aren't even "stories" anymore. When the Bush administration says something, you listen, right? Forget all the facts that debunk your #3 and #4, just listen to the Bush administration. Even Bush said he won't question Kerry's military service.

But number 5? I don't understand that one at all! Could you clarify that, if you want, please.

To enlighten me then because I do want to know the whole story, please provide links for #3 and #4. Thank you.

[edited because I forgot to address]

BTW, I don't question Kerry's service either. I think he went, he got three purple hearts for dubious injuries and followed the rules that sent him home.

 

[wvrevy]

This should be fun

Originally posted by spearenb
1. Voting Record. Proof that he wants to reduce the military and intelligence budgets and the like. Abscence of casting votes tells me that he really doesn't care.

See, this is how well misinformation works in a campaign....The votes you're taloking about were also supported by the Secretary of Defense at the time: one Dick Cheney. The only "abscense of casting votes" Kerry has had has been during the campaign, and he has returned when he felt his vote would be necessary to change the outcome of a vote.

Originally posted by spearenb
2. Attendance Record. How many days will he actually show up in the oval office if he is elected? Again, if he doesn't care enough to attend meetings and cast votes on important matters (no matter if they are just procedural), will he care if he is in office?

You're joking, right ? This president has spent more "vacation" days outside the white house than any president in history, and you're honestly saying you're more worried about Kerry's attendance record ?!?

Originally posted by spearenb
3. Refilming Battle Scenes. Isn't it kinda strange that someone would do this if they weren't into theirself? Come on, to go back to the battle scene and refilm the battle with yourself being the hero? Strange, strange, strange.

I wonder if George did anything like this while defending Alabama from the Viet Cong ?

Originally posted by spearenb
4. War Record. He brought it up and wont let it go. Even though 6 or 7 servicemen, who were on his ship, stand behind him. I think the more telling story is the 200+ other servicemen saying the opposite.

Yes, because eyewitnesses should certainly be disbelieved when you've got a bunch of people with agendas going on hearsay Ask yourself this: in a court of law, would those "200+" even be heard, since they weren't even there at the time ?

Originally posted by spearenb
5. Post War Record. He didn't have the judgement to notice that what he was doing was hurting the USA. He was young yes, and he should have learned (as we all have) that what happened at the end of the V'Nam War was wrong. But he hasn't. By taking the tact he has, he is totally undermining the Iraqi effort thereby putting soldiers in more harm than they could be otherwise.

Oh, please. John Kerry went to war. He became disillusioned. He returned and spoke out against the war. What is so awfully damaging to the USA about that ?

Originally posted by spearenb
6. Flip-Flopping. I don't care if someone points out Bush has done it also. Most, if not all of Kerry's, it seems, have been in front of campain contributors and special interests. He warps his thoughts to his audience and doesn't take a definitive view. Bush's flip-flops are probably comprimises (as I don't know what goes on behind closed doors) but they all seem to be for the best this country must have.

And with a single statement you blithely excuse the hypocrisy of accusing Kerry of flip-flopping while doing exactly the same thing. Kerry's changes of mind sometimes came over decades, yet there couldn't have been anything that actually caused that change of heart other than politics, right ?

Originally posted by spearenb
7. Arrogance. Stories are all over the place that he treats commoners as scum. I don't think I have ever heard stories on Bush. I know others have said that Bush is arrogant too. And I sort of agree with them. However, his arrogance is only seen, IMHO, when he is being challenged by world leaders and political opponents. And to tell you the truth, I think all of us want our leader to be a little arrogant to these also. But I don't see Kerry as being arrogant by standing up to foreign leaders. I think he will back down.

Again, you're joking, right ? Bush won't answer questions posed him by reporters, and his cronies have turned questioning him into an unpatriotic act, but Kerry is the arrogant one ? When has Kerry ever given any indication he would "back down", other than saying that the US has no right to completely ignore world opinion and trample on other countries ?

I realize this is your opinion, and you have every right to it, so please don't say that I'm telling you you don't...But there's not a single issue of substance in this list that doesn't apply just as strongly to Bush, if not more so.

 

[KarenC]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Doesn't it bother any Kerry supporters that he missed 76 percent of the meetings while on the Senate Intelligence committee? And all of them in the year after the 93 WTC attack. Yet he says now that he'll immediately reform the intelligence community.

Or is that another pack of Bush "lies"?

Set me straight please.

Well it bothers me less than George Bush being on vacation 40-something percent of the time his first year in office, including August 2001 during which time, the September 11 Commission tells us "the system was blinking red".

Now watch this drive.

 

[BedKnobbery2]

wvrevy, you also forgot to mention the arrogance and audacity of Bush & Cheney in denying Americans who won't swear their alliegance to them in a signed statement a chance to hear them speak during this election.......guess those swing voters aren't all that important after all.

Regarding the attendance records for the SIC....very, very, VERY clever ploy of the Bush campaign, since the closed hearing attendance records can't be released without approval from the committee heads--which includes one Pat Roberts (R-Va).....who has been very ambivalent about the entire thing, shouting out the one side of his mouth that Kerry should ask for his attendance records to be released, but refusing to say whether he'd grant that permission or not. As I said--very, very clever. Gotta give them props on this nice little bit o' spin.

 

[WeirdEyes]

I made-up my mind a long time ago and it would have to be a HUGE item to come out to make me change my mind. Even if I did change my mind, I could never vote for the other person, I would just not vote.

ITA! There's NO WAY I could vote for Kerry...not even if somebody offered me $20 million, and I'm very serious about that.

 

[bsears]

I just don't get it. You all saw exactly what the Bush campaign did to McCain. You saw how they lied and distorted in the worst possible way. Insidious little phone calls pretending to be polls asking how one would feel if it was discovered that McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock. Insinuations that this true hero had not LOST ENOUGH WEIGHT in the prison camps, and therefore must be co-operating with the enemy. You saw what they were capable of doing in order to win. And yet it seems many people are just swallowing whole every single thing the Bush camp puts out there about Kerry.

 

[beattyfamily]

I thought it was more like 27% and that the numbers included his actual vacations, many 'working' vacations like all the weekend getaways which are also 'working' vacations.

Is a President ever really off duty? Can't he work from anywhere? Just wondering.

 

[peachgirl]

you also forgot to mention the arrogance and audacity of Bush & Cheney in denying Americans who won't swear their alliegance to them in a signed statement a chance to hear them speak during this election.......guess those swing voters aren't all that important after all.

I posted this before, but I think it's worth repeating..

From a person who "attempted" to attend a Bush rally....

This morning tickets were available free of charge at a local business. I got in line at about 7am to obtain one... it was a long line. After waiting for 1 hour I finally arrive inside and hand this Republican lady my ID so I can get my ticket. She starts taking down my info and then asks me if I would like to sign up as a member of the Republican party. I politely decline. So she asks me why not. I thought about lying but knew I would feel bad about myself if I did so I told her the real reason, I was already a member of the Democratic party. No biggy I thought... she would just leave me alone. She says ok and returns to taking my info. Then this big lady comes from behind her and takes my ID out of her hands and tells me I can not get a ticket. I ask her why. She informs me because I am a registered Democrat. I asked her if she thought it was a good idea to only open this rally up to Republicans during an election year. She states that its invite only and that there are tons of Republicans who want to go. I inform her that apparently I wanted to go a little bit more than they had seeing as how I arrived here earlier. She brushes me off and on my way out I state, fine preach to the converted.

http://euclid.nmu.edu/~jasbarne/NoBush/

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[wvrevy]

Oh, that crew is definitely not short on audacity. I mean, we're talking about a candidate that campaigns with sayings like "If you're struggling to get into middle class and you feel like you're paying plenty of taxes, take a look at my agenda." while his tax cuts actually shift more of the tax burden from the uber-rich to the middle class. We're talking about a candidate that says he is working "to help more American families get health insurance.", while offering only one, industry supported initiative that would actually raise both premiums and deductables on the average American. You're talking about a candidate that says he wants to help Americans earn better paychecks, all while he's refusing to support a raise of the minimum wage and is trying to pass legislation that would remove overtime pay from millions of workers.

No, they're certainly not short on audacity Shame, maybe...But not audacity...

 

[disney4us2002]

As I pointed out on page one it seems the only conclusion is that this is pointless as noone plans to change his/her mind.

peachgirl, is there a way that you're including your "vote democrat" that is different than a signature because I am getting yours but all the other sigs are now gone (including my own darn vacation countdown)? I'm not saying it is offensive at all just wondering why I see it when I don't see any others.

 

[bsears]

Your countdown is still there.

 

[spearenb]

Wow, I think that I am borderline now on who I should vote for.... Thanks for changing my mind by giving actual substance to why Kerry should be voted for!!!

tit for tat, tit for tat

Originally posted by wvrevy

See, this is how well misinformation works in a campaign....The votes you're taloking about were also supported by the Secretary of Defense at the time: one Dick Cheney. The only "abscense of casting votes" Kerry has had has been during the campaign, and he has returned when he felt his vote would be necessary to change the outcome of a vote.

I don't think Cheney voted to reduce Intelligence spending, especially after the first WTC bombing. And isn't it telling that Kerry didn't want to go on record unless he was to cast the deciding vote?

You're joking, right ? This president has spent more "vacation" days outside the white house than any president in history, and you're honestly saying you're more worried about Kerry's attendance record ?!?

Oh come on, thats a shallow indictment. The president doesn't really go on vacation other than changing his schedule for a short time being. He has almost all of his staff travel with him. Plus, we are in an age where electronic communcation makes him available at a moments notice.

And what is Kerry's excuse for missing so many meetings? What did he have to do that was so important to take him away from his elected duties? Can't answer that one can we?

I wonder if George did anything like this while defending Alabama from the Viet Cong ?

Probably not or we would have heard about it now. And this defends Kerry how? Please, straight up, do you think this was strange? Have you heard anyone do this before? Maybe Patton? Maybe JFK? And, if it was true, what is your impression of that person?

Yes, because eyewitnesses should certainly be disbelieved when you've got a bunch of people with agendas going on hearsay Ask yourself this: in a court of law, would those "200+" even be heard, since they weren't even there at the time ?

The 200+ I heard was there either as other ships in combat, support personnel, or in command. Are you going to tell me that 200+ persons lied? Maybe Kerry can go back to Cambodia and find another 193 some odd persons to support him. Maybe Cambodia is where the actual retaping of battle scenes took place.

Oh, please. John Kerry went to war. He became disillusioned. He returned and spoke out against the war. What is so awfully damaging to the USA about that ?

Ohhh, I don't know. I will go ask a V'Nam Vet and tell me what he thinks about it.

And with a single statement you blithely excuse the hypocrisy of accusing Kerry of flip-flopping while doing exactly the same thing. Kerry's changes of mind sometimes came over decades, yet there couldn't have been anything that actually caused that change of heart other than politics, right ?

No, there could be other reasons such as not knowing truly what he has said before. Interesting that he doesn't admit that he has changed his mind... for personal reasons or not. And all of these 'changes of mind' seem to be in front of the mindset he speaks to. Funny isn't it?

Again, you're joking, right ? Bush won't answer questions posed him by reporters, and his cronies have turned questioning him into an unpatriotic act, but Kerry is the arrogant one ? When has Kerry ever given any indication he would "back down", other than saying that the US has no right to completely ignore world opinion and trample on other countries ?

Bush doesn't have to answer some questions just as Kerry doesn't answer them either. You can't tell me that you don't think Kerry is arrogant. He is a regular Ward Clever!!!

You're reading Kerry differently than I am. I think he would have continued to wait for the world to approval American Military action that was in the best, very best interest of the USA. I think he would allow the other world leaders to persude him to not take action when it is obvious (to some ) that action needed to be taken for our interests.

But there's not a single issue of substance in this list that doesn't apply just as strongly to Bush, if not more so.

I agree to some degree. With most politicians, you can compare them and see how they have very similar experences and such. And it comes down the individual that does the comparisons and how they interpret them. I see Kerry as the worst candidate in my comparisons.... YMMV.

 

[peachgirl]

I take it you're still blocking signatures, right?


You can see my vote Democrat sign because I'm not including it in my signature, simply inserting it with each post. I just learned how to post pics and haven't bothered to go in and add it to my signature instead.

You don't see it on this post, right? That's because I didn't include it in the post.

I don't know if you can do the same thing with a countdown clock, but I don't know why you couldn't. It is a pain though having to add it every time.