Kerry and Bush supporters. A question for y'all.

Originally posted by wvrevy
You're joking, right ? This president has spent more "vacation" days outside the white house than any president in history, and you're honestly saying you're more worried about Kerry's attendance record ?!?

Many of those vacation days were "working vacations" and while at Camp David, or in texas, he was often meeting with other officials. This accusation holds no water. . . also, I would venture to guess that the administration keeps the President aware while on "vacation".

:rolleyes: I wonder if George did anything like this while defending Alabama from the Viet Cong ?

Misinformation certainly does get spread around, doesn't it! "Rather than a possible two-year draft in the regular forces, Bush chose to volunteer for a six-year hitch with the Air National Guard. Where privilege might have landed him in a safe administrative position, he chose one of the riskiest jobs in the force, piloting a high-performance but old jet fighter, the Convair F-102 "Delta Dagger." His mission during the Cold War - what is now called homeland defense - was vital: to intercept Soviet Tu-95 strategic nuclear bombers that ran regular doomsday missions up and down the Eastern seaboard threatening U.S. cities with nuclear destruction.

Bush's F-102 was a dangerous machine to fly. Built in the 1950s, according to the U.S. Air Force Museum, the primitive single-engine plane, with a delta-wing design that pilots say made it tough to control, could fly at supersonic speed with an arsenal of 24 unguided rockets and six guided missiles to intercept incoming aircraft. Col. William Campenni, who served with Bush in the same squadron, wrote in a Feb. 11 letter to the Washington Times, "Our Texas Air National Guard lost several planes right there in Houston during Lt. Bush's tenure, with fatalities. Just strapping on one of those obsolescing F-102s was risking one's life."

Bush flew dangerous supersonic interceptors during the Vietnam War to protect the country against a nuclear attack, actually intercepting Soviet bombers. Bush was honorably discharged. He did not go AWOL, as McAuliffe has alleged."--from Dispelling the Left's Lies about George W. Bush, by J. Michael Waller,

Yes, because eyewitnesses should certainly be disbelieved when you've got a bunch of people with agendas going on hearsay ;) Ask yourself this: in a court of law, would those "200+" even be heard, since they weren't even there at the time ?

Only ONE of Kerry's commanders or Officers in Charge support Kerry. One. It could be that Kerry had a good rapport with his subordinates, and seven of them are supporting him. However, it seems that EVERy Officer in Charge find reason to distance themselves from Kerry. This could be that he didn't follow orders correctly, that they thought he wasn't fit. Their view of Kerry would be different, and carries more relevance than kerry's subordinates who would not have this same, more knowledgeable perspective. This story has absolutely not been debunked, and is still being investigated. Yes, a court of law would take a look at all the signed affidavits and be interested in their testimony. There's no reason to believe they would not be heard. These are respected military personnel who have devoted their lives to this country. You are possibly accusing and definitely dismissing 250+ vets that served our country honorably.

Also, as i've mentioned before, Kerry has not accused or threatened the SBV themselves--only the television stations that planned to air the ads. A suppression of free speech, really, since he's not accusing the SBV DIRECTLY of libel/slander.

Oh, please. John Kerry went to war. He became disillusioned. He returned and spoke out against the war. What is so awfully damaging to the USA about that ?

Well, several things are wrong about this. The first one is, if the stories are true, then Kerry should be tried as a War Criminal. If he really DID participate in these war crimes, he is a terrible human being and needs to be brought to justice.

The second thing that is wrong about this is that the only way he could not be considered a War Criminal would be that he LIED. If this is the case, that is extremely damaging to the U.S. and contributes to the misinformation that feeds Anti-Americanism throughout the world and in this country.

:rolleyes: And with a single statement you blithely excuse the hypocrisy of accusing Kerry of flip-flopping while doing exactly the same thing. Kerry's changes of mind sometimes came over decades, yet there couldn't have been anything that actually caused that change of heart other than politics, right ?

I agree with spearenb and do not consider her comments to be neither hypocritical nor blithe. Kerry's views (abortion, gay marriage) flip flop according to his audience. At a car manufacturer's he's the everyman, raving about how many cars he has. In front of a "green" audience, he denied owning an SUV. . .when pressed, he admits it, though it's in Teresa's name. I see Kerry as a man lacking moral clarity and spine (JMHO).

Again, you're joking, right ? Bush won't answer questions posed him by reporters, and his cronies have turned questioning him into an unpatriotic act, but Kerry is the arrogant one ? :rotfl: When has Kerry ever given any indication he would "back down", other than saying that the US has no right to completely ignore world opinion and trample on other countries ?

Well, Kerry DID say to the Harvard Crimson, “I’m an internationalist, I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations.” I know he distances himself from these comments NOW. But, like his present views, this shows him to be shortsighted and have a narrow perspective on America's place in the world as well as its security and sovereignty--as do many of his other comments.

And, nobody is talking about "trampling on other countries". . .that is your own blithe accusation, and the Bush Administration's views (which I agree with) do not see our Iraqi invasion as trampling. Many Iraqis don't see it that way, either.

I realize this is your opinion, and you have every right to it, so please don't say that I'm telling you you don't...But there's not a single issue of substance in this list that doesn't apply just as strongly to Bush, if not more so.

I beg to differ; there are many issues of substance on this list, and more. . .we didn't even discuss Cambodia. And, during those comments, Kerry spoke of Nixon being President. Well, Nixon wasn't even in office during "Christmas of 1968"! Now he states he was on a clandestine mission. . . but nobody is coming out to support that assertion.
 
Originally posted by bsears
I just don't get it. You all saw exactly what the Bush campaign did to McCain. You saw how they lied and distorted in the worst possible way. Insidious little phone calls pretending to be polls asking how one would feel if it was discovered that McCain had fathered a black child out of wedlock. Insinuations that this true hero had not LOST ENOUGH WEIGHT in the prison camps, and therefore must be co-operating with the enemy. You saw what they were capable of doing in order to win. And yet it seems many people are just swallowing whole every single thing the Bush camp puts out there about Kerry.

This could be considered damaging, but it seems as if the feud between McCain and Bush has ended. . .although, admittedly, McCain still harbors a grudge.

The phone calls that were made by the campaign personnel were horrible, but it was also stated, later, that they were NOT authorized comments (edited to: authorized campaign tactic). This cannot be proven otherwise. Only a FEW of these damaging phone calls were made. . .not hundreds, as the accusation goes.
 
1. You have to believe the Navy was wrong about a bronze star, a silver star, and two of three purple hearts.

2. You have to believe it's sheer coincidence that the Swift Boat vets against Kerry have records of supporting and contributing to Republicans.

3. You have to believe Bob Perry, a major Bush contributor from Texas, who's financed the group as part of the five million he has given to Republicans and conservative causes in the last three years, is just interested in the truth.

4.You would have to believe that Harlan Crow, a major financer of the group, a trustee of the George Bush Presidential Library Foundation, and a man who served with Dick Cheney on the Board of Trustees of the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (a conservative think tank that funds research promoting conservative business and political interests) is only interested in the truth.

5. You would have to believe that Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, who never served with Kerry, is a better source of information than his father, the late Admiral Zumwalt, who signed Kerry's silver star recommendation and defended John Kerry in the midst of a close political campaign in 1996.

6. You have to believe George Elliott changed his mind and his memory from what he said in 1969 and 1996 and in August of 2004


7. You have to believe Admiral Hyland, James Rassmann, David Alston, and all the other crewmates of PCF-44 and PCF-94 are either liars, amnesiacs, brainwashed victims or partisan hacks (even though several, including Rassmann, are Republicans).


8. You have to believe Purple Hearts are awarded based on the severity of wounds, thus disqualifying thousands if not millions of Purple Hearts that have been given.

9. You have to believe that Kerry threw a grenade into a rice pile to cause his own injuries, and everyone who saw and treated the wounds mistook rice pellets for shrapnel.

10. You have to believe Louis Letson treated Kerry's injury for the first purple heart, and suddenly remembered this one man's injury decades later, even though there's no documentation to support this assertion, he didn't sign the sick call sheet, and he wasn't a crewmate of Kerry's and he got the location of the wound wrong.

11. You have to believe the Navy's after action reports and medal citations are false, indicating it's very easy to get medals by making up stories.

12. You have to believe Roy Hoffman was lying when he said just last year that he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry's record; and that he actually saw his boss, Admiral Zumwalt, award Kerry undeservedly, but didn't bother to tell Hoffman at the time.

13. You have to believe Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces officer, doesn't know gunfire when it's being shot at him.

14. You have to believe Larry Thurlow, cited in Navy after action reports as having returned fire on the day Kerry saved Rassmann, actually either didn't return fire, or fired at nothing, since the new claim is that there was no enemy fire; and that PCF-3, the boat he reportedly assisted, fell apart by itself, and was towed away by some other boat besides Kerry's, as reported, since Kerry supposedly left, making the Navy liars here again even in their reports on Thurlow himself.

15. You have to believe Shelton White, who says Kerry "betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam," considers saving lives "betrayal" or doesn't believe Rassmann could have died when he fell overboard.


16. You have to believe that President Nixon, on a vendetta against Kerry that enlisted John O'Neill himself, although the most powerful man in the world, was incapable of uncovering the deceit that merely scratching the surface has brought out today

17. You have to believe that when John O'Neill debated John Kerry on the Dick Cavett show in June 1971, he decided to keep Kerry's supposed cowardice, lies, and undeserved medals out of the discussion, despite hurling a range of other personal attacks and accusations far less serious.


18. You have to believe Jerome Corsi, a man who when cornered, admitted and apologized for writing vicious screeds about Catholics, the Pope, Muslims, Jews and Gays on a virulent right wing website, is a man of nonpartisan credibility
 

Originally posted by spearenb
Hear, hear, Kendra!!!

I think we are changing some minds now!!!!

:teeth:

haha. . .well, one can hope, but I'm more skeptical than you!
 
From Colin Powell:


"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell’s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)

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Originally posted by Kendra17
Many of those vacation days were "working vacations" and while at Camp David, or in texas, he was often meeting with other officials. This accusation holds no water. . . also, I would venture to guess that the administration keeps the President aware while on "vacation".
I'm sorry, did we move the white house to texas and I missed the memo ? :rolleyes: If it didn't matter at all where the president was, why even bother making them move to Washington ? We can just have the Kerry White House in Mass...the Edwards White House in North Caroline...the Obama White House in Chicago.... :rolleyes: More excuses from the right for anything this president does.
Originally posted by Kendra17
Misinformation certainly does get spread around, doesn't it! (Insert more blahblahblah about how dangerous it was for poor Georgie in Alabama, compared to the trivial threat Kerry faced in Vietnam)
I don't know how you can possibly believe any of that, Kendra...i mean, you're not serious with that, are you ? The guy didn't even SHOW UP for duty, and you're trying to make him out to be a war hero... :rotfl:
Originally posted by Kendra17
Only ONE of Kerry's commanders or Officers in Charge support Kerry. One. It could be that Kerry had a good rapport with his subordinates, and seven of them are supporting him. However, it seems that EVERy Officer in Charge find reason to distance themselves from Kerry. This could be that he didn't follow orders correctly, that they thought he wasn't fit. Their view of Kerry would be different, and carries more relevance than kerry's subordinates who would not have this same, more knowledgeable perspective. This story has absolutely not been debunked, and is still being investigated. Yes, a court of law would take a look at all the signed affidavits and be interested in their testimony. There's no reason to believe they would not be heard. These are respected military personnel who have devoted their lives to this country. You are possibly accusing and definitely dismissing 250+ vets that served our country honorably.
Hmm, that's funny....Seems that Kerry's record said he was an exemplary soldier (that would be his record composed by those same COs)....But NOW his commanders suddenly remember him as such a poor soldier that he's "unfit for command", and you don't even bother looking at their agenda ?!? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Kendra17
Well, several things are wrong about this. The first one is, if the stories are true, then Kerry should be tried as a War Criminal. If he really DID participate in these war crimes, he is a terrible human being and needs to be brought to justice.

The second thing that is wrong about this is that the only way he could not be considered a War Criminal would be that he LIED. If this is the case, that is extremely damaging to the U.S. and contributes to the misinformation that feeds Anti-Americanism throughout the world and in this country.
1 - Why wasn't he tried at the time then ?
2 - Misinformation like Abu Ghraib, you mean ? Seems to me that information is enough to generate plenty of hatred on it's own. Failed policies have a habit of doing that.
Originally posted by Kendra17
I agree with spearenb and do not consider her comments to be neither hypocritical nor blithe. Kerry's views (abortion, gay marriage) flip flop according to his audience. At a car manufacturer's he's the everyman, raving about how many cars he has. In front of a "green" audience, he denied owning an SUV. . .when pressed, he admits it, though it's in Teresa's name. I see Kerry as a man lacking moral clarity and spine (JMHO).
Kerry has never waivered on either topic you mentioned, though the SUV comment was just stupid (akin to Clinton's "definition of is"). He is against the idea of abortion, and for a woman's right to choose. He is against gay marraige, but for civil unions (and against amending the constitution). Where is the flip flop ? Do you accuse Bush of flipping since he also was against the amendment, before he was for it ?
Originally posted by Kendra17
Well, Kerry DID say to the Harvard Crimson, “I’m an internationalist, I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations.” I know he distances himself from these comments NOW. But, like his present views, this shows him to be shortsighted and have a narrow perspective on America's place in the world as well as its security and sovereignty--as do many of his other comments.
He wants America to be a leader in the world community, but in order to do that you actually have to get people to FOLLOW you. Do you see a helluva lot of help for our guys right now in Iraq ? Nobody is following Bush but the people in this country too frightened of the boogey-man terrorists to think about what the man is doing.
Originally posted by Kendra17
And, nobody is talking about "trampling on other countries". . .that is your own blithe accusation, and the Bush Administration's views (which I agree with) do not see our Iraqi invasion as trampling. Many Iraqis don't see it that way, either.
Would those be the ones blowing up our soldiers or the ones supporting those that blow up our soldiers ? :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Kendra17
I beg to differ; there are many issues of substance on this list, and more. . .we didn't even discuss Cambodia. And, during those comments, Kerry spoke of Nixon being President. Well, Nixon wasn't even in office during "Christmas of 1968"! Now he states he was on a clandestine mission. . . but nobody is coming out to support that assertion.
Cambodia is a non-issue for one simple reason: IT WASN'T ALABAMA. :rotfl: Only the righteous right seems to care, but whatever you do, don't ask them where Bush was in the same time period :rolleyes:
 
We really don't know if Bush "wrangled" a place. However, Kerry had the option of serving more than 4 months, and chose not to. Are we minimizing the National Guard service? Obviously, most supporters of Bush are comfortable with his choice and the truth that I regarding his service that was posted in my prior post-- just as most Democrats were comfortable with Clinton avoiding service altogether.

Also, military service does NOT necessarily make one fit to command. Obviously half (maybe more--we'll see!) of us find Bush to have excellent leadership skills and excellent clarity, while believing Kerry to have neither.
 
Ah, we're rolling around with opinions as facts again! What fun!!

Opinion: Kerry served dishonorably in the Viet Nam War. (And no matter how many people say it, it is STILL AN OPINION.)

Fact: Kerry received 3 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silver Star for his service during the Viet Nam War.


And Kendra, this is the first I've heard of this: "Bush flew dangerous supersonic interceptors during the Vietnam War to protect the country against a nuclear attack, actually intercepting Soviet bombers." Can you please provide a link to an article or even Bush's military records that document his interception of Soviet Bombers? Thanks! Not being flip....it honestly is the first I've ever heard of Bush's actively defending the country during his stint in the National Guard......actually, its the first I've heard of anyone intercepting Soviet bombers that were attacking our country during that time frame.
 
Originally posted by BedKnobbery2
Ah, we're rolling around with opinions as facts again! What fun!!

Opinion: Kerry served dishonorably in the Viet Nam War. (And no matter how many people say it, it is STILL AN OPINION.)

Fact: Kerry received 3 Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silver Star for his service during the Viet Nam War.


And Kendra, this is the first I've heard of this: "Bush flew dangerous supersonic interceptors during the Vietnam War to protect the country against a nuclear attack, actually intercepting Soviet bombers." Can you please provide a link to an article or even Bush's military records that document his interception of Soviet Bombers? Thanks! Not being flip....it honestly is the first I've ever heard of Bush's actively defending the country during his stint in the National Guard......actually, its the first I've heard of anyone intercepting Soviet bombers that were attacking our country during that time frame.

Just to clarify my postion, I don't think Kerry dishonorable served in the Viet Nam War. I think he did see the combat that has been mentioned. However, I do think the Navy was loose in awarding some of those awards. And I think Kerry had an alternative agenda to why he went to war. Something akin to being like JFK (the real one).

With his last few statements like he was in Cambodia and he was the Chairman of the Intelligence committee, I think he is actually trying to bolster his credibility while lying. What would be the alternative reasoning? He forgot his actually placing? He didn't say it? He just didn't remember it? I do give him enough credit and respect to determine he knows what he is trying to do in these cases. Otherwise, he has the start of Alzheimers.
 
And I think Kerry had an alternative agenda to why he went to war. Something akin to being like JFK (the real one).

If you believe that then surely you have to wonder why he came home and spoke out against the war. Surely if he were looking for the fast track to JFKs footsteps he would have continued to do the "popular" the "correct" thing?
 
I am basing my vote on what the two tickets have done since they were elected to public office, not their military records. I trust President Bush to do the right thing, and have taken great comfort in his leadership, especially after 9-11. While I do not agree with every decision he has made, I do overwhelmingly agree with most of them. And, in my opinion he has proven that he has a moral clarity for leadership that I can support.

The Kerry/Edwards ticket is the most liberal ticket to ever be put before the American people for consideration for the White House. Kerry is the most liberal Senator in office today, Edwards is the 4th most liberal Senator. If you lean to the left, chances are you do not lean far enough to the left to agree with most of their decisions, but I encourage you to look them and decide for yourself. Kerry is talking like a centrist now because that is what he has to do to get votes, but his senate voting record is the proof positive that he is not.

Here are a few of my thoughts.

Kerry says that he will raise your taxes. Think of this: The top 5% of wage earners pay 53.25% of all Federal Income Taxes in the United States. The top 10% pay 64.89%, and the top 50% pay 96.03% of the taxes. The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $26,000 and up in 1999. (The top 1% earned $293,000-plus.)

Kerry has been quoted as saying that he thinks people who earn more should give an even higher percentage of their income to the government than they do now just because it would be better for those that do not earn as much. I do agree that if people want to pay more they should be able to and I support their right to do so. In Kerry's home state of Massachusetts they have a box you can check to pay your taxes at a higher rate than is mandated which I think is a great idea, however Kerry's box has never been checked.

In Detroit, he loved his SUV, in Vermont ( I think that was the state...) he didn't have one.

John Kerry served on the Intelligence Committee from 1993 to 2000, and according to official records, Kerry missed 76 percent of the public Senate Intelligence Committee hearings during that time. He missed every intelligence meeting held during the year after the first WTC attach, while voting to downsize it's funds by 6 million dollars.

As Michael Dukakis' lieutenant governor, Kerry authored an executive order that said the state of Massachusetts would refuse to take part in any civil defense efforts in response to a nuclear attack on America.

If you are thinking of voting for Kerry because of the war in Iraq, consider this: Kerry voted to go war with Iraq, then voted to not fund the war. He started his run for the presidency as an anti-war candidate saying that we should have never gone to war, but now almost two years later his position is that President Bush was right, and given the same circumstances he would have made the same decision that President Bush did even now that the weapons have not been found.

These are just a few of my thoughts, everyone must research and find out who they can personally support and who's ideals align most with their own.

I am most enthusiastically voting for President Bush.
 
We know he "wrangled" a place because anyone who is at all familiar with the way things were during the Vietnam era knows that the National Guard was where you went if you wanted to hedge your bet and not take a chance on being drafted.

The problem was, a lot of people wanted to get out of being drafted so it wasn't a matter of just choosing to do it. Generally, as Powell says, the NG became a haven for those who had connections/power/money. Your average everyday kid couldn't get a spot in the NG.

Bush joined the Texas Air Guard in May 1968 after intercession by friends of his father, who was then a Houston congressman. He was quickly commissioned, spent a year in flight school in Georgia and then six months learning to fly an F-102 fighter-interceptor at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston. From June 1970 until April 1972, he flew frequently.



Even after being given an out, he couldn't manage to serve even that fully.

Bush did no duty at all between April 16 and Oct. 28, 1972. Nor did he appear for monthly training in December 1972 or in February and March of 1973.

Bush, who was a fighter-interceptor pilot assigned to the Texas Air National Guard, last flew in April 1972 -- just before the missed physical and 30 months before his flight commitment ended. He also did not attend National Guard training for several months that year and was permitted to cut short his military commitment a year later in 1973.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/02/11/white_house_releases_bushs_guard


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The Kerry/Edwards ticket is the most liberal ticket to ever be put before the American people for consideration for the White House. Kerry is the most liberal Senator in office today, Edwards is the 4th most liberal Senator.

And you know this how? Because the media has repeated it over and over and over again until it becomes an accepted truth. Have you ever looked into who does the ranking? Where this #1 and #4 came from? It came from a very far right magazine who took it upon themselves to rank the senators. Anyone taking a careful look at voting records, instead of just accepting what "they say" will see that it is completely false.
 
While I in no way can compete with most of ya'll (with your quotes and such), the only thing that keeps running through my mind is this:
After firmly being antiwar for so many years, is Kerry only now changing his mind because the military is "popular" since 9/11. What happens when we are not quite as popular? My DH's job is SO combat related and we need to keep it.
 
He started his run for the presidency as an anti-war candidate

This is the latest lie that the Bush campaign has come up with . They show a clip where Kerry says he is the anti-war candidate. Small problem though. The clip came from an interview on Chris Matthews show Hardball. Matthews showed the WHOLE answer Kerry gave and showed how the republicans had dishonestly clipped it to make it look like Kerry said somethign he had not.
 
remyandhollandsmommy

One can be anti war and still face the reality of today. The reality is that we are in a war. No matter how much we might wish we were not there, the fact is that we are. The fact that Kerry recognizes this and believes he is better suited to handle this war hardly means he has changed his belief system.

To say that he is changing his mind because the war is "popular" makes no sense to me. Look at the polls, the war is NOT popular.
 
I was not refering to the war as being popular, but the military itself. Reread the post. I am basing my opinions on his years in public office, not the turnabout since this presidency run began.
Flame away.
 
Originally posted by bsears
This is the latest lie that the Bush campaign has come up with . They show a clip where Kerry says he is the anti-war candidate. Small problem though. The clip came from an interview on Chris Matthews show Hardball. Matthews showed the WHOLE answer Kerry gave and showed how the republicans had dishonestly clipped it to make it look like Kerry said somethign he had not.

For those that want the truth rather than something that just confirms what they want to believe:

Below is the FULL exchange between Chris Matthews and John Kerry:

MATTHEWS: Do you think you belong in that category of candidates who more or less are unhappy with this war? The way it‘s been fought? Along with General Clark, along with Howard Dean, and not necessarily in companionship politically on the issue of the war with people like Lieberman, Edwards and Gephardt? Are you one of the anti-war candidates?

KERRY: I am. Yes. In the sense that I don‘t believe the president took to us war as he should have, yes. Absolutely. Do I think this president violated his promises to America? Yes, I do, Chris. Was there a way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable? You bet there was and we should have done it right.

This is what the RNC-related web video used:

MATTHEWS: Are you one of the anti-war candidates?

KERRY: I am. Yes.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5727982/

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