Just back, some observations...

[wtccheermom]

I for one do not mind waiting for an ECV or a wheelchair to load on the bus or a ride and I really do not think that the majority of guest at Disney do. I also do not mind if they load the family when it is a small group but lets face if it is a big party then they should split up because I have been to WDW with a big party and we have had to split up several times for busses, rides/attractions, and resturants. It is no big deal you just wait up for your group. I think common sense should be used because obviously the rules to do not apply for every situation.


Just wanted to add this little story because it is guys like this that cause the animosity that there is when it comes to this topic. Back in June of 2008 we were waiting for a bus from Epcot back Saratoga Springs and as we are about to load this rude man comes pushing through line as we were yelling coming through wheelchair pushing people who were unaware he was there out his away . He was not there earlier while we were waiting so no one was aware not even the bus driver until he came pushing through. So they get loaded on and so does about 15 of their family and friends and the whole way back to Saratoga Springs he is loudly talking to his party how his idea worked to park at Downtown Disney to beat the parking fees and all they had to now was take a boat back to DTD and then they would be back at their rental house by 5. So you tell me how a line packed with resort guest should feel when 15 spots were taken by late comers who were not even staying at that resort but off property. This is why there should be limits to the amount of people when the situation warrants it.

 

[npcougar]

From a point of mercy, would you want your family split up onto different buses? Didn't think so.

But this happens all the time. If my family has 6 people and we won't all fit, we either take different buses or have to a wait for the next bus.

 

[DizzDoll]

To all of you who really need a wheelchair or scooter: Please don't do without what you need because of others who judge. You can't please people no matter what you do, so let god be the judge. You are not the ones people are upset about. You are welcome to all the help that can be provided.

Very well said.

 

[Karnak]

I agree with you about Ellen's Energy Adventure. I don't know why this gets such a bad rap from some people.

We enjoy the ELP but I think that it's the overall wackiness of the parade. Spectro is more majestic and I can see why that would be more impressive.

I won't comment about the scooter situation. Good luck with that!

I couldn't agree more. Ellen's is a must every time for me too.

 

[triplejen]

I travel with my elderly mom and my grandchild, who do I leave at the bus stop?



New Bus Rules! The first in line boards, NO EXCEPTIONS!

All ECVs and chairs are to wait in the regular line!

*** Read all about it below. ***

First, a little math. I am on an ECV and I wait in line with everyone else. You come and you are in line behind me. The bus pulls up and 20 people get on. I now get on. How many toes do I crush to get to my spot?

OK, now for the real deal. I am waiting with everyone else, you are in line behind me. The bus pulls up 20 people load, two or three of which are ECV users. No place left for me. Should you go ahead and get on the bus since you can take a regular seat? Caution: If you said yes, then you would be doing the exact same thing that you just complained about ECV users doing. You nasty line cutter! I demand that you wait for the next bus, because I was there first!

Now we ALL waited for the next bus. Unfortunately the people behind me are all ticked off (again )because they had to wait because of my ECV! Deja Vue. ( Well except for those of you that think you are too good for the rules and hoped on the last bus anyway. You know who you are.)

We load, (I crush 10 toes this time and one stroller) And we get to the parks (with another half full bus due to the other ECVs that did not fit)!

Yippeeee. I get to get OFF the bus first this time!!!!! The rules are all about who is first. Forget everything else, just watch your toes because here I come again. You know, I am starting to like these new rules, but I am not so sure you are fairing any better.

Now if you are still with me, take a deep breath. Maybe instead of being upset over the ECVs loading first ( which is just logical planning) maybe we should be upset with Disney for not providing SHADE and rain protection canopies over ALL bus lines? (Maybe even add a few benches IN the line like in the MK train station?) I think if people were out of the sun and rain, and could sit some while waiting for the bus, it would make things just a bit more tolerable? Don't tell me it is too expensive. They could add shade and benches for less than the cost of a ride, a giant wand added to a geospear, a big sorcerers hat, or the next....

Sometime life is not what is fair. ( Do I ever know that one.) Maybe some things in life are just done the best they can, in general, for everyone. I think with a little shade added and a bench or two, this is what Disney is already doing. Don't count the ECVs, count your blessings.

Beautifully posted. Hear, hear!

If we are talking about ADA/Federal requirements, a basic rule is EQUAL ACCESS. That means if a bus has space to load wheeled passengers, then it must load them. So the idea that wheeled people wait in the line with the hypothetical group that would be in their busload, goes right out the window. Disney separates out the wheeled people so the driver can see them before he pulls in. If the wheeled person was in the regular line, and arrived at the bus door as passenger #30, the bus driver would likely tell him the bus was full and he couldn't load (which was untrue if he had loaded the wheeled person first). Or if he did load him, amidst a crowded bus, someone's body part would likely be run over, and a group of people would have to get up from the benches marked for handicapped seating, and then trouble would ensue.

Disney bus loading isn't an exercise in line etiquette. The Disney buses hold maybe 40 walking people, but only 2 disabled. Based on numbers of scooters and wheelchairs, Disney has to load these buses with the wheeled people as efficiently as possible to keep from getting behind in their loading.

There is nothing stopping Disney from allowing more than one to board with the disabled person. At a family place like Disney, how likely is it the disabled is part of an entire family unit? So Disney allows the wheeled person plus up to 5 others to board. From a point of mercy, would you want your family split up onto different buses? Didn't think so.

Exactly. Thank you.

Your other post said you weren't sure she and her family was doing this any more. There will always be people who try foolish things once or twice and then realize their foolishness. This applies to the "Great Myth of Handicap Perks." Yeah, it's sorta fun to ride instead of walk. But people dart out of nowhere, stop in front of you, you can't converse with your group because you are 3 feet lower than them. If you looked up to see them, that's when you might drive into someone. So no small talk. Parades and fireworks are just about a disaster, even in the designated areas. Your body gets tired of the same position for hours on end. You can't go very fast and you realize very soon that you could make much more progress if you got out and walked. You get put in the very last row at all the shows, and in the stores it's hard to go down the aisles with people already there, so you back up alot and (oops) you bang into displays. Then people look at you for the wrong reasons. Same bad looks at the bus and monorail. You feel like you should be wearing a big sign that says "I'm Sorry!"

So I think the number of able-bodied people that rent medical scooters is negligible. Why put people who do have a medical need through that medical sign-off hoop. People like grandpa who is OK but has old-age heart ailments. Or an RA person with a flare-up. If you run the numbers you are thinking of making tons of people go through something for the sake of a very minimal few. It's a huge waste of $$ and resources for what benefit? For proof to the able-bodied the you qualify for the scooter rental? You don't need proof of sobriety to get in a car and drive, you go with the presumption that the person driving is sober. So why does anyone need to prove physical requirements to rent a scooter?

This is a perfect analogy. Well said!

 

[Looking4themouse]

I agree about the scooters. I can totally understand that the people that use those scooters do so out of necessity. However I dont think that 3 people in a scooter should be able to go ahead of a line of 75 people waiting for a bus. It seems a bit ridiculous. Especially when the people that are in those scooters have 8 family members with them.

While I understand where you are coming from I don't think you have thought this through completely, I have, because my bff uses a chair. Imagine a bus full of people and an ecv trying to maneouver through it, my guess is that there would end up being a lot of broken toes, and bruised shins if like you suggested, people with mobility devices had to "wait in line" like the Able-Bodied bunch.

 

[JerseyJanice]

What I take issue to is "out of control". What is an "in control" number?



Doesn't seem too " Out of control" to me. Two ECVs is too much?

You would not have needed a flame suite if you had simple said (felt) ;
"The number of ECV users has increased dramatically since my last visit, as has the number of people traveling with larger strollers. The increased space required for these devices has resulted in longer wait times in the bus lines. Perhaps Disney could RUN MORE BUSES to compensate for these changes?"

Thank you for trying to re-word my post.

However, I never meant to suggest that Disney should run more buses. I do not agree with this statement.

What I trying to say is that Disney needs to expand its capacity for transporting people using scooters and wheelchairs to keep up with the increasing numbers of them. There is barely enough space for the number of people using them now with only two spots per bus.

Since I don't know of any statistics/data published about the number of people who visit WDW and use mobility devices, so I don't have any way to say for certain how much of an increase there has been over the past 10 years. However, I do know what I have personally observed.

We stayed one week at Coronado Springs in February 1999 and relied on their buses for transport to and from the parks. During that week, we had maybe two or three bus rides in which people's wheelchairs were loaded onto the bus we were taking. I don't even recall seeing any scooters that trip.

Now, here we were for one week at Pop in August 2010, relying on bus transport, and I would say we had two or three bus rides in which there were no mobility devices. Again, I have no scientific data to back up my claims that there is a great increase in mobility device usage, but you have to admit that this is a pretty significant thing to observe.

I also observed that mobility devices do not impact monorail or boat transportation badly like they do on the buses. People just drive them on so they have no impact on other riders. The uploading of mobility devices into buses does take up a lot of time, especially, it seems, on certain buses or lift assemblies. Also, some drivers seem less skilled at operating them than others.

All I trying to say is that it's time Disney look into how they are transporting people with mobility devices--for the sake of both users and folks on foot--because it looks like the numbers keep increasing.

 

[blondietink]

Another thing I have noticed is that sometimes at the end of the night, say after Fantasmic or Wishes, and we get to the bus line, there are usually more than 2 people with ECV's or wheelchairs, and plus us would add another 2. Often the bus dispatcher will come up to the group and ask who can walk on, who needs to ride on and get srapped in, etc. They will call a bus specifically for those people with mobility devices and load us separately, while the able-bodied get on their own bus. This has happned to us at HS, MK and EP more than once. So, probably 2 or 3 buses of able bodied people leave while we have been loading, so they got back to the resort much sooner than we did. I didn't mind any of the times this happened, as long as I had a cool plaace to sit once we were on the bus after a long day pushing a wheelchair.

 

[Looking4themouse]

I cant believe after its been pointed out so many times, its Disney policy, ADA rules, and for safety reasons, you put this,

if you knew the rules you wouldnt like this to happen trust me.

if the ECV/WC person waits in line, and is say the 25th person to load and the driver says sorry its not safe, you have to wait for the next bus, that bus is then (by the rules) classed as full and no one else should be allowed to board.,

you ever see or hear a ECV/WC rider complain of this no, they are not that petty, you see where they get to be loaded first and think its a bonus, an earlier poster offered to lend one for a day, and anyone could spend the day at WDW with him, any takers yet.

OK so I must comment, and while I'm not trying to be offensive, you may find it so, however, I feel obligated to say this. Just because a person uses an ECV doesn't make them more pious than anyone else. People with disabilities are just like people without them. Just like us TAB's there are individuals that are happy, sad, angry, resentful, assertive, passive, have a sense of entitlement, and are capable of every other emotion that an able bodied person has, and some are capable of expressing their discomfort at having to wait, again just like any able bodies person is. Why do people find it so impossible to believe?

 

[triplejen]

(I meant to post this immediately below my first post, but got caught up with a few things in between.)

Frankly, I get tired of reading about the mythical scooter fakers with their unnaturally enormous families rudely running over the toes of weeping babies in their maniacal quest for unearned bus access.

I agree with an earlier poster who suggested that rather than picking apart what we (rudely) perceive to be the relative worthiness of people using various types of mobility accommodations, we should focus on expecting that Disney provide sufficient transportation at known busy times (like the hour after park closing) to ALL guests.

Incidentally, the only issue I witnessed in the two-week trip I just returned from was long bus lines at park closing, where *everyone* was waiting for a while. And any time more than three people/families with a member using either a wheelchair or a scooter ended up on the accessible line, at least one, and sometimes two of them had to wait for a second or third bus to arrive (even though in equal cases they had arrived long before the on-foot people that were able to board ahead of them), simply because there were only 2 spots on each bus that could accommodate them.

I think that a neat solution for the occasional park-closing backup might be for Disney to have one or two dedicated accessible buses at each of the 4 parks for handling any backlog of mobility vehicles that might pile up on a particular resort line at the end of the night.

These dedicated buses would be floating, dispatched to whichever resort line was experiencing a pile-up on a given night. So if on Thursday night the EPCOT resort bus with 4 people in either wheelchairs/scooters stuck waiting was the French Quarter bus, then that bus would go to that resort to pick up those 4 guests (and their accompanying families), drop them at POFQ and return for the next overage pick-up. When it returned, the pile-up might now be on the Pop Century line, so the dedicated bus would then accommodate guests on that line.

This would eliminate the really lousy situation of guests using wheelchairs/scooters having to wait for bus after bus before they were able to board, and would also allow the resort lines being slammed with the longest lines on a particular night to get as many people on each arriving bus as possible. It would also allow flexibility for the dispatchers to use the dedicated buses as needed each night. And of course it would also maximize the seating on the buses arriving on the standard schedule for that resort, meaning that everyone would get back faster.

But honestly, why not focus out attention where it belongs - on the company offering the transportation as a benefit for all on-property guests? It is up to Disney to make sure the transportation guests are paying for is able to reasonably accommodate everyone. No need to judgmentally pick apart fellow guests - the scarcity is created by the company responsible for the supply.

 

[Looking4themouse]

(I meant to post this immediately below my first post, but got caught up with a few things in between.)

Frankly, I get tired of reading about the mythical scooter fakers with their unnaturally enormous families rudely running over the toes of weeping babies in their maniacal quest for unearned bus access.

I agree with an earlier poster who suggested that rather than picking apart what we (rudely) perceive to be the relative worthiness of people using various types of mobility accommodations, we should focus on expecting that Disney provide sufficient transportation at known busy times (like the hour after park closing) to ALL guests.

Incidentally, the only issue I witnessed in the two-week trip I just returned from was long bus lines at park closing, where *everyone* was waiting for a while. And any time more than three people/families with a member using either a wheelchair or a scooter ended up on the accessible line, at least one, and sometimes two of them had to wait for a second or third bus to arrive (even though in equal cases they had arrived long before the on-foot people that were able to board ahead of them), simply because there were only 2 spots on each bus that could accommodate them.

I think that a neat solution for the occasional park-closing backup might be for Disney to have one or two dedicated accessible buses at each of the 4 parks for handling any backlog of mobility vehicles that might pile up on a particular resort line at the end of the night.

These dedicated buses would be floating, dispatched to whichever resort line was experiencing a pile-up on a given night. So if on Thursday night the EPCOT resort bus with 4 people in either wheelchairs/scooters stuck waiting was the French Quarter bus, then that bus would go to that resort to pick up those 4 guests (and their accompanying families), drop them at POFQ and return for the next overage pick-up. When it returned, the pile-up might now be on the Pop Century line, so the dedicated bus would then accommodate guests on that line.

This would eliminate the really lousy situation of guests using wheelchairs/scooters having to wait for bus after bus before they were able to board, and would also allow the resort lines being slammed with the longest lines on a particular night to get as many people on each arriving bus as possible. It would also allow flexibility for the dispatchers to use the dedicated buses as needed each night. And of course it would also maximize the seating on the buses arriving on the standard schedule for that resort, meaning that everyone would get back faster.

But honestly, why not focus out attention where it belongs - on the company offering the transportation as a benefit for all on-property guests? It is up to Disney to make sure the transportation guests are paying for is able to reasonably accommodate everyone. No need to judgmentally pick apart fellow guests when they are not responsible for the scarcity created by the company responsible for the supply.

I know before that you mentioned living in another country that does not have a lot in the way of accesible transportation, and while your idea isn't a bad one, I think some people with disabilites in the US would object. In the US we have come a long way im making things more accesible, and less segregated for people with disabilites, and it might appear to some as us taking a step backwards if we start offereing a "special" bus for people with disabilites, even if it was only at the end of the night when there was a back-up.

 

[wtccheermom]

Than perhaps you should stop reading these threads.

 

[OhioDisneyDad]

Two points:

First, the ECVs don't bother me because I make it a point not to judge people. I figure that if someone is using an ECV then they have their reasons - none of which are any of my business.

Second, and this is a bit off topic, I always see people posting about how great the WDW bus system is but then I see how apparently awful it must be because of all those pesky ECV folks. People waiting 30-60 minutes for a bus in some cases. Something's not adding up.

 

[Daisy&Max]

WOW! This thread is very sad. My mother uses a scooter (that I had to buy off of ebay because her medicare won't cover it because they only consider you if you need it for home use and our home is not accessible by scooter...so she bounces off the walls and furniture as she falls through..er I mean walks through the room.)

My mom will sit back and wait for a few buses to pass before she gets in line, but then of course people walking up to the line and see her move to the wc space only see her rolling up and getting on ahead of them, they don't see that she has waited for multiple buses.

My two kids and I are the only ones traveling with her but we get nasty looks from some people when we get on the bus ahead of others. I feel so guilty because of how people look at us that I usually stand and wait till all the stops are done so that I'm not taking up another seat. I don't want people to have a reason to make snide comments about my mom.

My mom would gladly give up her scooter so that she could walk and not be in pain all the time. She hates having to ask people to get things off of shelves she can't reach or not being able to get as close to the displays as she would like.

Things would be so much faster for us if we left mom/grandma at home but that's not how we like to travel and I hate having people judge us when we are just trying to enjoy our trip. It makes me sad how some people think.

Daisy

 

[Cinderella94]

Oh my! Didn't we all realize 11 or so pages ago that this thread wouldn't end well?

 

[Snape]

WOW! This thread is very sad. My mother uses a scooter (that I had to buy off of ebay because her medicare won't cover it because they only consider you if you need it for home use and our home is not accessible by scooter...so she bounces off the walls and furniture as she falls through..er I mean walks through the room.)

My mom will sit back and wait for a few buses to pass before she gets in line, but then of course people walking up to the line and see her move to the wc space only see her rolling up and getting on ahead of them, they don't see that she has waited for multiple buses.

My two kids and I are the only ones traveling with her but we get nasty looks from some people when we get on the bus ahead of others. I feel so guilty because of how people look at us that I usually stand and wait till all the stops are done so that I'm not taking up another seat. I don't want people to have a reason to make snide comments about my mom.

My mom would gladly give up her scooter so that she could walk and not be in pain all the time. She hates having to ask people to get things off of shelves she can't reach or not being able to get as close to the displays as she would like.

Things would be so much faster for us if we left mom/grandma at home but that's not how we like to travel and I hate having people judge us when we are just trying to enjoy our trip. It makes me sad how some people think.

Daisy

Don't take it personally, because it's obvious that some people are just intolerant. People can't even be civil and whine and complain because their $2.00 Walmart shirt got a stain on it when little kids are blowing bubbles around them. Why should some show a little sensitivity to a handicapped person?

 

[kaytieeldr]

What I trying to say is that Disney needs to expand its capacity for transporting people using scooters and wheelchairs to keep up with the increasing numbers of them. There is barely enough space for the number of people using them now with only two spots per bus.

But if Walt Disney World were to expand capacity for transporting Guests in wheelchairs/ECVs, that would be giving them (us) preferential treatment - and that's not reasonable, either.

You (general 'you') may perceive a lot of Guests in wheelchairs/ECVs at your resort, because those Guests displace you on the bus on which you expect to ride; but really, in relation to the total number of Guests at your resort, there aren't many. It just seems like a lot because, respectfully, they inconvenience you.

I know from experience at the larger resorts - at the end of the day, if WDW Transportation doubles- or triples-up on buses (to, say, Pop Century), anyone needing the lift can board ONLY the bus parked right at the loading area. Guests on foot can walk to the bus/es parked next to that one.

I also know - again, based on experience - that I need to board the first possible bus. Why? Well, one afternoon (so, not busy) at Epcot, 'my' bus was boarding as I approached. I let the driver know I'd wait for the next bus. The next bus had a lift that wouldn't operate at all. Okay. The next bus had a lift that operated BUT because the ground wasn't 100% flat, the lip wouldn't open; we - driver and I, since that had happened to me before - tried everything short of unscrewing it (note to self: bring travel tool kit).

So, yes, I'm going to board the first possible bus. Yes, I'm going to hang back one bus if I can, but not if there are other wheelchair/ECV Guests behind me. It's not up to me to decide how they should travel.

 

[Snape]

I also have a great solution to the bus situation if you don't want to wait.

Rent a car.

 

[triplejen]

I know before that you mentioned living in another country that does not have a lot in the way of accesible transportation, and while your idea isn't a bad one, I think some people with disabilites in the US would object. In the US we have come a long way im making things more accesible, and less segregated for people with disabilites, and it might appear to some as us taking a step backwards if we start offereing a "special" bus for people with disabilites, even if it was only at the end of the night when there was a back-up.

I think you are confusing me with another poster - I am a born & raised New Yorker!

I absolutely see your point. I did think about that before posting, but I believe that if used as a limited measure for meeting time-specific overage needs rather than as the exclusive means of conveyance for a specific class of passenger, that it doesn't fall into the category of providing a separate but equal transportation option. I suppose that is open to individual interpretation, but by my own standard I think it's okay

Originally Posted by triplejen
Frankly, I get tired of reading about the mythical scooter fakers with their unnaturally enormous families rudely running over the toes of weeping babies in their maniacal quest for unearned bus access.

Than perhaps you should stop reading these threads.

I can't! I tell myself not to get sucked in, but I can't stay away!

 

[leebee]

THe Disney busses are an interesting topic. On our trip this summer, I had two bus drivers and one shuttle driver tell me the same thing about the busses. I have always wondered how it can be safe to pack people in like sardines, and basically was told that Disney can do this because they are privately owned and operate on private property. One even mentioned that if you are transporting to DTD, you have to monitor the number of people boarding because the bus ends up on city streets, so different rules apply. I thought this was interesting, and I guess is also why Disney can offer boarding for one wc/ecv user and up to 5 other guests instead of only one companion, as ADA guarantees. Also, FRPA (federal privacy act) prohibits requiring identification as handicapped in order to rent a scooter- not specifically, but the wording of the law would cover this situation.

My complaint is not with the ECV/wc users, or the number of users- it's with boarding an unlimited number of guests with them. Disney has a rule about this, and they should enforce it. ECV users seem to know the rules about being able to board first, and having to wait until the bus is empty to disembark (we always wait until the crowd is gone before getting off the bus, it's just easier for us, but I know some feel that this isn't fair- but first/last is the safest, easiest way), so they should be told about the party-size limitation.

I know, nobody wants to split their party, but when we travel in a big group, we do it all the time. When staying offsite, we have to rent multiple cars, ride in separate vehicles, take different trams to and from the parking lot, and meet up at the gates to the park. When staying onsite, we sometimes have to take separate busses or end up waiting even longer so we can board together. Gosh.... many large family groups even split up within the park to do touring, meeting up at specified times/places.. and some have to split up and sit at different tables when dining. Splitting up is a fact of life when traveling in a large group, ECV/wc or not.

I think Disney should manage ALL its transportation better. No guest should have to wait 45-60 mins at the end of the day (at posted park closing times) to get on a bus to a resort. THe company knows when/where the largest bus-waiting crowds will be. There are transportation managers at the bus loading areas, dispatchers, and radios on all the busses. There has to be a better way to manage all this. I personally like the idea of benches, fans, and overhead shelter at the bus lines. Tired, hot, cranky people are less patient and less understanding, and more confrontational! I know that I HATE Disney transport because I know that after a long, hot, tiring day in a theme park, there is a good chance my sore feet, tired legs, and aching back will get to stand in an almost stationary line for 20-30 minutes, and then stand again on a moving bus, squooshed in among strangers, for another 10-20 minutes. Yes, I can rent a car, but the big draw to staying onsite these days is not needing to spend that extra money, thanks to DME and the busses. I know that if I had a spot where I could sit, or at least lean up against, while waiting in line to stand on the bus, I'd be a happier mouseketeer!

Please let me reiterate... I don't care who uses ECV/wc or why. I just wish Disney would (a) enforce the rules they themselves have set in place, (b) make the bus system more responsive to crowd/user levels, and (c) make the bus queuing area more user friendly.