JonBenet Ramsey - a question for those who follow this story

[cabanafrau]

True. I just meant I have not seen anyone suggest that the Ramsey's could not have done this because they were normal. Seems like the opposite is far more common.

Oh I agree with you. I'm just questioning how much anyone who suspects the family because they're so odd really understands what they were like.

 

[lovin'fl]

I don't think they are suspects because they are odd. It's a culmination of many things:
1- 3 page dramatic ('don't try to grow a brain John') ransom note written on Patsy's own notepad and with a pen from the home and pen and notepad were replaced back in their spots (also practice note was written). Left on back stairs that PR used.
2- lawyered up immediately and separate lawyers for each parent
3- JR was overheard getting his jet ready to fly to Atlanta right after her body was found
4- parents wouldn't be interviewed separately by LE...EARLY ON (later they were)
5- parents wouldn't allow BR to be interviewed for like 2 years
6- parents didn't react when ransom time for call came and went
7- story was BR slept through everything but now he tells us, on DR P, he was awake in his bed...also might be heard on 911 call
8- story was JBR fell asleep in car and was carried to bed yet pineapple was found undigested in stomach and bowl of pineapple on table
9- what have they done to find killer? wrote book about how they were wronged
10- JR moved body and removed duct tape, contaminated crime scene
11- parents left BR in his room alone when supposed kidnapers had been in the home
12- parents went on talk show shortly after burying her but way before being interviewed by LE
13- PR referred to her constantly as 'that child'
I am sure there is more. But there was enough for GJ to indict.

 

[pryncess527]

I am sure there is more. But there was enough for GJ to indict.

And a GJ would indict a ham sandwich, so to be honest that doesn't tell me much. Especially since they have subsequently been cleared by additional evidence.

 

[lovin'fl]

And a GJ would indict a ham sandwich, so to be honest that doesn't tell me much. Especially since they have subsequently been cleared by additional evidence.

Cleared by touch DNA that would never convict if they find the match to the unknown Latino male. I bet there is a more logical reason for that DNA...lab tech, LE, garment production, Ramsey staff. Many professionals involved can't understand how Lacy could clear them.

 

[cabanafrau]

I don't think they are suspects because they are odd. It's a culmination of many things:
1- 3 page dramatic ('don't try to grow a brain John') ransom note written on Patsy's own notepad and with a pen from the home and pen and notepad were replaced back in their spots (also practice note was written). Left on back stairs that PR used.
2- lawyered up immediately and separate lawyers for each parent
3- JR was overheard getting his jet ready to fly to Atlanta right after her body was found
4- parents wouldn't be interviewed separately by LE
5- parents wouldn't allow BR to be interviewed for like 2 years
6- parents didn't react when ransom time for call came and went
7- story was BR slept through everything but now he tells us, on DR P, he was awake in his bed...also might be heard on 911 call
8- story was JBR fell asleep in car and was carried to bed yet pineapple was found undigested in stomach and bowl of pineapple on table
9- what have they done to find killer? wrote book about how they were wronged
10- JR moved body and removed duct tape, contaminated crime scene
11- parents left BR in his room alone when supposed kidnapers had been in the home
12- parents went on talk show shortly after burying her but way before being interviewed by LE
13- PR referred to her constantly as 'that child'


I am sure there is more. But there was enough for GJ to indict.

Okay, I'll pick two.

10 -- if you were to find a family member in that state, can you say 100-percent with certainty you would simply stand back and call for help? It's perfectly normal for people to rush to a loved one's side and want to touch, hold, fix hair, hold hand, "make comfortable", etc. IF he was legitimately a shocked and grieving father, are his actions so unusual really?

Because there was enough for the grand jury to indict is not the same as saying the grand jury thought they were guilty. An indictment from a grand jury is very similar to a judge making a finding at a preliminary hearing to bind a case over to be heard by a finder of fact because there are questions of evidence to be decided. To turn that idea into a presumption of guilt flies in the face of our justice system and the idea of due process. The person whose job it was to carry that burden of proof beyond the standard of reasonable doubt elected not to pick up that burden and carry it -- that's not inconsequential.

 

[cabanafrau]

Cleared by touch DNA that would never convict if they find the match to the unknown Latino male. I bet there is a more logical reason for that DNA...lab tech, LE, garment production, Ramsey staff. Many professionals involved can't understand how Lacy could clear them.

Wait, you're suggesting that physical evidence that does not point to a family member as assailant should be discounted because you "bet" there's more logical reasons it's benign and has no bearing to the case and the suspicions of other people -- including unspecified "professionals" should be considered as stronger evidence -- despite there being no clear, Incontrovertible objective or scientific evidence the family did it?

ETA Incidentally, a full 50-percent of the reasons you cite for their being a logical reason for that DNA being present points to mind numbing mishandling of evidence by LE or the crime lab, particularly LE if you know anything at all about the processing of clothing from a murder victim's body. There would be NO, absolutely NO instance where there should be even the slightest possibility for TOUCH DNA to be transferred from LE to Jon Benet's undergarments. They would have been removed by the medical examiner at their office, bagged and then handed off to the crime lab. The only time they would have been in the possession of LE they would have been bagged and sealed for transport to the crime lab -- and rebagged and sealed after testing.

 

[msjprincess]

Okay, I'll pick two.

10 -- if you were to find a family member in that state, can you say 100-percent with certainty you would simply stand back and call for help? It's perfectly normal for people to rush to a loved one's side and want to touch, hold, fix hair, hold hand, "make comfortable", etc. IF he was legitimately a shocked and grieving father, are his actions so unusual really?

Because there was enough for the grand jury to indict is not the same as saying the grand jury thought they were guilty. An indictment from a grand jury is very similar to a judge making a finding at a preliminary hearing to bind a case over to be heard by a finder of fact because there are questions of evidence to be decided. To turn that idea into a presumption of guilt flies in the face of our justice system and the idea of due process. The person whose job it was to carry that burden of proof beyond the standard of reasonable doubt elected not to pick up that burden and carry it -- that's not inconsequential.

I can almost guarantee if I found one of my children dead I would do the same thing. I probably wouldn't be in the right state of mind to think about preserving evidence.

 

[lovin'fl]

It's touch DNA, it would not hold up. There is a reason for that. I believe the parents touch DNA and fibers from PR's clothes were also found and that doesn't prove they did it either.

 

[cabanafrau]

I can almost guarantee if I found one of my children dead I would do the same thing. I probably wouldn't be in the right state of mind to think about preserving evidence.

I can tell you that being kept from your deceased child in the aftermath of their death is apparently one of the bitterest pills for many of the parents to swallow. If they're talking to me about it or if I'm listening to them testify or talk about it time has passed since their child has died and I've heard several absolutely sob about that particular moment and not being able to hold their child's hand again, not being able to kiss them goodbye or hold them. The fact that I'm talking about mostly situations where the child is in fact an adult doesn't make a difference. It's difficult to keep composure as a stranger in the face of it and either talk to them or even simply be in their presence and listen to their heartbreak. Many of them are angry that they were restrained by law enforcement to keep them away from the body and preserve evidence. It's not uncommon for several officers to need to be involved at that point -- and it's not unusual for the parents to remain bitterly furious at the police officers. Often the leads in the case will avoid being present in the room because there have been times that that anger has prevented the family from participating with the investigation because they are so bitter and emotional and unable to let it go.

Who on earth could be aware and understand a mama bear phenomenon in a social situation, yet think a parent rushing to their dead child, picking them up, crying, hugging, screaming, anything would be so abnormal?

 

[cabanafrau]

It's touch DNA, it would not hold up. There is a reason for that. I believe the parents touch DNA and fibers from PR's clothes were also found and that doesn't prove they did it either.

Because it's not unusual for family members or those living in a household to transfer hairs, clothing fibers, etc. as part of daily life. Family fingerprints about the household wouldn't mean much either.

It's incorrect to state absolutely that touch DNA would not hold up, particularly if they identified an individual with no reason to have left the DNA where it was found.

 

[NHdisneylover]

I don't think they are suspects because they are odd. It's a culmination of many things:
1- 3 page dramatic ('don't try to grow a brain John') ransom note written on Patsy's own notepad and with a pen from the home and pen and notepad were replaced back in their spots (also practice note was written). Left on back stairs that PR used.
2- lawyered up immediately and separate lawyers for each parent
3- JR was overheard getting his jet ready to fly to Atlanta right after her body was found
4- parents wouldn't be interviewed separately by LE
5- parents wouldn't allow BR to be interviewed for like 2 years
6- parents didn't react when ransom time for call came and went
7- story was BR slept through everything but now he tells us, on DR P, he was awake in his bed...also might be heard on 911 call
8- story was JBR fell asleep in car and was carried to bed yet pineapple was found undigested in stomach and bowl of pineapple on table
9- what have they done to find killer? wrote book about how they were wronged
10- JR moved body and removed duct tape, contaminated crime scene
11- parents left BR in his room alone when supposed kidnapers had been in the home
12- parents went on talk show shortly after burying her but way before being interviewed by LE
13- PR referred to her constantly as 'that child'
I am sure there is more. But there was enough for GJ to indict.

It is this type of thing, being posted and discussed over and over in many places online and on tv, etc that cause me to wonder how anyone could believe, as a prior poster did, that the family (only father and brother now I think) should be HAPPY people still "care"

I doubt we will ever know what happened that night, which is both sad and frustrating, but that doesn't mean I feel I have any sort of right to add to the immense pain of that family when I have no serious and conclusive reason to suspect them of anything.

 

[CdnCarrie]

I don't think they are suspects because they are odd. It's a culmination of many things:
1- 3 page dramatic ('don't try to grow a brain John') ransom note written on Patsy's own notepad and with a pen from the home and pen and notepad were replaced back in their spots (also practice note was written). Left on back stairs that PR used.
2- lawyered up immediately and separate lawyers for each parent They could tell police were focusing on them as suspects and friends advised them to seek legal counsel. Not unusual.
3- JR was overheard getting his jet ready to fly to Atlanta right after her body was found
4- parents wouldn't be interviewed separately by LE Parents were interviewed separately. Those interviews have been shown over and over on tv.
5- parents wouldn't allow BR to be interviewed for like 2 years He was interviewed when they woke him up.
6- parents didn't react when ransom time for call came and went
7- story was BR slept through everything but now he tells us, on DR P, he was awake in his bed...also might be heard on 911 call No proof that he was on the 911 call. That is still an unsubstantiated rumor.
8- story was JBR fell asleep in car and was carried to bed yet pineapple was found undigested in stomach and bowl of pineapple on table Its been stated that due to individual digestion times she could have ate the pineapple before they left for the party.
9- what have they done to find killer? wrote book about how they were wronged Didn't know it was the family's duty to do the police force's job for them. They did hire a private investigator I do believe.
10- JR moved body and removed duct tape, contaminated crime scene Wow. Really! If I found my child IN MY HOME I would do the exact same thing as JR did. More power to you if you could hold yourself back. Most parents couldn't.
11- parents left BR in his room alone when supposed kidnapers had been in the home Guess we're not all perfect parents. Not sure what I would do in that case. If I thought he was sleeping I would probably let him be too.
12- parents went on talk show shortly after burying her but way before being interviewed by LE
13- PR referred to her constantly as 'that child'
I am sure there is more. But there was enough for GJ to indict.

 

[cabanafrau]

It is this type of thing, being posted and discussed over and over in many places online and on tv, etc that cause me to wonder how anyone could believe, as a prior poster did, that the family (only father and brother now I think) should be HAPPY people still "care"

I doubt we will ever know what happened that night, which is both sad and frustrating, but that doesn't mean I feel I have any sort of right to add to the immense pain of that family when I have no serious and conclusive reason to suspect them of anything.

You don't think a list of speculation and hearsay solves the case? I can't imagine what it must have been like to be a nine year old to have this happen in your family, and then be expected to grow up "normal" under this microscope. Is it reasonable to expect someone could come through that kind of growing up experience unscathed? Is it reasonable to then pick apart his demeanor today and use it to fuel speculation he's got to be guilty? That's completely overlooking whether he might not have been an "unusual" boy to begin with -- I'm speaking purely in the sense of benign unusual, NOT latent sociopath who discretely managed to murder his sister and avoid investigation. What if he had some social struggles and this trauma and subsequent speculation really caused him to pull into a shell? That's a sad thought.

 

[mi*vida*loca]

I've lived long enough to know that I would never talk to police without a lawyer especially if I can see I'm being targeted as a suspect. These weren't uneducated people. They had lawyer friends who advised them to get lawyers.

 

[Hikergirl]

I don't think they are suspects because they are odd. It's a culmination of many things:
1- 3 page dramatic ('don't try to grow a brain John') ransom note written on Patsy's own notepad and with a pen from the home and pen and notepad were replaced back in their spots (also practice note was written). Left on back stairs that PR used. Anything in the house would have been Patsy's, it was her house.
2- lawyered up immediately and separate lawyers for each parent IMO, they did the right thing. They knew they were suspects, and innocent people have everything to lose when the police have only them in their sights.
3- JR was overheard getting his jet ready to fly to Atlanta right after her body was found Overheard by who? I thought on the A&E special they said that it wasn't true he was planning on leaving. Since they already had a fight planned, I'm sure he had to notify his pilot of any changes.
4- parents wouldn't be interviewed separately by LE I wouldn't be either if I knew that the police were trying to pin my child's murder on my dh, myself of my other child.
5- parents wouldn't allow BR to be interviewed for like 2 years He was 9, no other explanation needed.
6- parents didn't react when ransom time for call came and went What does that mean? They didn't react the way someone else would have?
7- story was BR slept through everything but now he tells us, on DR P, he was awake in his bed...also might be heard on 911 call I don't know why this matters unless you really believe that he murdered her.
8- story was JBR fell asleep in car and was carried to bed yet pineapple was found undigested in stomach and bowl of pineapple on table A 6 year old child is capable of waking up, going into the kitchen and getting themself a snack. And I know my child would have just left it there and not cleaned it up when finished.
9- what have they done to find killer? wrote book about how they were wronged Isn't that the police's job?
10- JR moved body and removed duct tape, contaminated crime scene The crime scene (the house) was contaminated from the very beginning. A father grabbing his child and picking her up when found in that condition doesn't seem at all unusual. I could see my dh doing the same thing.
11- parents left BR in his room alone when supposed kidnapers had been in the home Why did they think the kidnappers were still in the home? Did they say that?
12- parents went on talk show shortly after burying her but way before being interviewed by LE The same LE who already assigned guilt to them.
13- PR referred to her constantly as 'that child' I didn't know her personally, is that how she always referred to her?
I am sure there is more. But there was enough for GJ to indict.

I just don't think there is any real evidence that points to the parents.

 

[cabanafrau]

I've lived long enough to know that I would never talk to police without a lawyer especially if I can see I'm being targeted as a suspect. These weren't uneducated people. They had lawyer friends who advised them to get lawyers.

Not to mention, if they contacted a lawyer it's definitely plausible the lawyer said, look folks, here's the deal, you know there's immense speculation, statistics would put the odds of one of you being the assailant, money's not a factor, you're safer if you each have an advocate for your own interests. They weren't dealing with a green lawyer trying to make their mark, they would have gotten a heavy hitter who gave advice commensurate with their hourly rate.

 

[Mizzoufan]

I believe Patsy killed her in a fit of rage and John helped cover it up. In my mind just to many odd things you just can't overlook.

 

[msjprincess]

I believe Patsy killed her in a fit of rage and John helped cover it up. In my mind just to many odd things you just can't overlook.

Like what?

 

[Hikergirl]

I believe Patsy killed her in a fit of rage and John helped cover it up. In my mind just to many odd things you just can't overlook.

Its so funny how different people can have all the same info and come to different conclusions. For me, I think there is so much odd stuff that can't be over looked too, but IMO it points to someone else doing it.

It really is a shame that the truth will probably never be known.

 

[Mizzoufan]

Like what?

John knew exactly where her body was. they said she went to bed. When she obviously had pineapple. Why no tracts of footprints. Why would a kidnapper take the time to.write out a novel of a ransom note. While there people were in the house. Weren't they afraid of being caught? Why weren't they freaking out when the time passed and no call for kidnappers. Why was Patsy in the same clothes from the day before? When she was such a slave to fashion? Even her close friends said that was strange for her. Whoever wrote that ransom note was trying to be dumb but knew what an attached bag was and spelled it correctly when the whole ransom note was filled with misspellings. I could go on and on.