Jan 19, 2019 - The day the magic died

[GeneralTso]

Don't think it matters. The parks are full and revenues are up. It's very possible that the "middle class" isn't their target market. Sometimes, you can make more money with fewer customers.

I've read posts from more than one poster on the DIS, that said they would be willing to pay more for less crowding.

You are 100% right!

 

[Ohana2011]

You are 100% right!

Agreed as well... Looking at the 3 hour Disney After Hours events for $125. for the promise of less crowds and some evening snacks... People are buying in. They're showing Disney that they're willing to go higher for the smaller crowds and ability to run through the parks without the long lines and masses. The prices keep going up and people are paying. As for the DVC... Who knows what lies ahead. I do believe there are big plans afoot with the purchase of BK Ranch and the surrounding property that abuts the SunRail line. Bring in Virgin Rail... Something big is on the horizon, just can't put my finger on it.

 

[bumbershoot]

what actually changed for current owners? Current owners can use their (7-month) points at all 14 resorts, and Riviera, and (apparently) Reflections when they're built. That part hasn't changed. The only changes affect people buying resale in the future. Did you buy in speculating that point prices would go up?

ROFR is/was supposed to keep values high, for owners who wish to sell later. Right? That's kinda what it was there for. So I think most people rightfully felt that ROFR would keep values from tanking. It wouldn't be like selling some other timeshare, where you pretty much give it away.

I can go anywhere. If I sell, the person who buys my contract *can't*. That...is rotten for them. They aren't getting what I got. Perks blah blah blah, yes, they come and go, but the included DVC resorts shouldn't be *perks*.

So it affects me when and if I choose to sell. Not right now. But maybe in the future.

From the time Disneyland opened there have been groups of people that have always believed its nothing but a money grubbing corporation. Theres many here that ignored it and spent decades going but now decide to see it differently for whatever reason. Disney has never changed just depends on who you ask

An interesting perspective is mine. As a kid I liked Disney. As an older teen and then college student up until I was around 30, it was an evil corporate empire that snuck around Florida buying up farmland (I am a big fan of farmland and despise random construction; I often wish that cities would just say "sorry, we're full, go elsewhere"...I grew up on a deadend road that was unincorporated that had two giant developments built around it after cutting down the orchards and destroying the farms, and my brother and I used to go out and take out the surveying stakes on the weekends...I *hate* construction when it destroys something good and pure). As a 30+ I kinda glazed over all of that, decided that all giant corporations started as a dream of A person, so it's OK, it's almost like a "small business done good" story. And now? Hmm.

I'm the same human. But I've viewed it differently.

They haven't destroyed any significant resale value of existing contracts since they can still be used anywhere.

Well wait, an existing contract can be used anywhere. The value of it when it goes to resale does change because that sold contract *can't* be used anywhere.

They will get the same thing that they expected to get, say, a year ago before Riviera was worried about -- access to the original 14 locations. Therefore, I don't expect this to significantly affect the resale value of, say, BCV or BLT at all.

Except that until now a resold contract could expect to use any DVC resort. Right? So this is a *change*. This is something different. I believe we've had the right to think they could be used at any DVC resorts. I haven't had the right to think an AP discount will always exist, or the other membership perks, but I didn't think a DVC2 would happen.

Dumb question...for those of us who own points prior to this day and purchase down the road after 1/19...can't (or couldn't) we just transfer the "new" points to our "old" contract and use "ALL" of the resorts? Just thinking....

No I don't think it works that way.

During those years where there was zero difference I used to laugh about how hard a sale it must be with prospective buyers that were fully aware of resale.

I don't think it's that hard of a sale. I knew about resale, it was 2009, and we still bought direct. I wasn't alone.

How is that "devaluing" resales?

Because isn't this the first time people can't expect to have access to all DVC resorts if they buy resale? How is that NOT devaluing resale?

I have been glad I have not added on over the years. We have a low amount of points which has worked for us. We need more points occasionally but we have substituted with cash stays at other Disney hotels.

Same.

Wouldn't a lot of DVC owners also be part of the "middle class"?

Absolutely. My one example of upper class in my family certain has ZERO interest in a timeshare, and ridicules such owners, including me. If they want to go somewhere they stay at a proper hotel with proper service. They don't want to self-cater while on vacation.

Marathon Weekend, which I forgot about when I booked, is alive and well.

Marathon weekend was still selling -might still be selling- bibs going into the weekend and I saw mention of buying last minute bibs at the expo. So... Even Princess is still selling kid races and the Half. Unheard of.

 

[Mikamarii]

ROFR is/was supposed to keep values high, for owners who wish to sell later. Right? That's kinda what it was there for. So I think most people rightfully felt that ROFR would keep values from tanking. It wouldn't be like selling some other timeshare, where you pretty much give it away.

I can go anywhere. If I sell, the person who buys my contract *can't*. That...is rotten for them. They aren't getting what I got. Perks blah blah blah, yes, they come and go, but the included DVC resorts shouldn't be *perks*.

So it affects me when and if I choose to sell. Not right now. But maybe in the future.



Well wait, an existing contract can be used anywhere. The value of it when it goes to resale does change because that sold contract *can't* be used anywhere.



Except that until now a resold contract could expect to use any DVC resort. Right? So this is a *change*. This is something different. I believe we've had the right to think they could be used at any DVC resorts. I haven't had the right to think an AP discount will always exist, or the other membership perks, but I didn't think a DVC2 would happen.


Because isn't this the first time people can't expect to have access to all DVC resorts if they buy resale? How is that NOT devaluing resale?

I'm confused as to what you are saying here. Maybe I'm misinterpreting. This is directly from Disney's website

Effective January 19, 2019, only Members who purchase directly from Disney will be able to use their Vacation Points at the 14 existing Disney Vacation Club Resorts or future Resorts—such as Disney’s Riviera Resort or Reflections – A Disney Lakeside Lodge. Resale contracts purchased for the existing 14 Disney Vacation Club Resorts will only be able to exchange Points into those 14 Resorts.

I own at BLT. If I sold my BLT points tomorrow that person buying can still use these resale points for the 14 existing resorts. Just none of the new resorts. Someone buying my resale contract will (well should) know that they can't book at Riviera. They get to choose to buy the points knowing where they can and can not book.

I understand they are changing the system and people don't like it. I just don't get the outrage. Everything everyone was guaranteed when they bought is exactly the same. Whether resale or not.

Going forward the rules are spelled out. Yes many people are uninformed but that is no one's fault but their own. The rules are there. In the age of the internet if people can't take the time to do a couple google searches for a 50k purchase then I'm sorry, but that is their own fault.

When we bought BLT we were guaranteed that we could book at BLT and everything before that. We were never guaranteed that we could stay at Poly, GF, etc, etc.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

I own at BLT. If I sold my BLT points tomorrow that person buying can still use these resale points for the 14 existing resorts. Just none of the new resorts. Someone buying my resale contract will (well should) know that they can't book at Riviera. They get to choose to buy the points knowing where they can and can not book.

Not entirely correct. You’re grandfathered in. If you sold your points tomorrow it would be January 12. This policy isn’t effective until the 19th. So your points would be able to be used at the Riviera as long as you are in ROFR by the 19th. It just if your hypothetical buyer ever wanted to sell then that contract will have the limits).

I just sold my contract last week. Pretty happy with what we got. Of course we bought in 2008, we bought resale in a desireable location and we paid cash. This was before any restrictions on resale membership so we got to enjoy a good decade or so of actual no strings membership. And we sold it for a lot more than we paid back in 2008. We’ve been drifting away from DVC and vacationing at Disney at all the last few years anyway. I’ve been renting my points out and when we used them for a trip it was a dismal experience (not the DVC but the entire vacation.) It was time to sell and I’m glad we did. But all in all the DVC experience did work for us. I’m glad we did it but there’s no way in heck I’d do it now. The entire Disney vacation experience isn’t terribly fun to me anymore. Paying close to 200 dollars a point to buy in now for a watered down experience (crowds, lack of availability unless you devote your life to stalking reservations, crazy price hikes, etc) is definitely not something I’d ever consider.

 

[drusba]

Does Disney’s announcement say exactly what the January 19 date means in relation to existing resales, i.e., is it the agreement date or does any existing resale contract have to be closed by Jan 19 to avoid the future resort restriction?

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

Does Disney’s announcement say exactly what the January 19 date means in relation to existing resales, i.e., is it the agreement date or does any existing resale contract have to be closed by Jan 19 to avoid the future resort restriction?

It is the last day to submit to ROFR.

 

[CarolMN]

Does Disney’s announcement say exactly what the January 19 date means in relation to existing resales, i.e., is it the agreement date or does any existing resale contract have to be closed by Jan 19 to avoid the future resort restriction?

Doesn't say specifically. Only "official" info I have found is on the Members' Website:

"Update to Disney Vacation Club Resort Access for Contracts Not Purchased Directly from Disney

Effective January 19, 2019, only Members who purchase directly from Disney will be able to use their Vacation Points at the 14 existing Disney Vacation Club Resorts or future Resorts—such as Disney’s Riviera Resort or Reflections – A Disney Lakeside Lodge. Resale contracts purchased for the existing 14 Disney Vacation Club Resorts will only be able to exchange Points into those 14 Resorts.

This change does not apply to contracts purchased prior to January 19, 2019. Contracts gifted to family members will continue to have the same Resort access as before the ownership transfer.

The eligibility rules for Membership Extras and RCI access remain unchanged.

The Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Guide has been amended accordingly."

One poster said that a chat CM told him that it meant submitted to ROFR process. Also reports from a few of the brokers stating the same thing. But OTOH, there are also reports of some guides and MC CMs that say closed.

 

[kboo]

ROFR is/was supposed to keep values high, for owners who wish to sell later. Right? That's kinda what it was there for. So I think most people rightfully felt that ROFR would keep values from tanking. It wouldn't be like selling some other timeshare, where you pretty much give it away.

I can go anywhere. If I sell, the person who buys my contract *can't*. That...is rotten for them. They aren't getting what I got. Perks blah blah blah, yes, they come and go, but the included DVC resorts shouldn't be *perks*.

So it affects me when and if I choose to sell. Not right now. But maybe in the future.

This is a cheaper way to execute ROFR. Then Disney can buy back more contracts at a much lower price, and then resell those same points at the direct price. Especially Riviera. I don't think Disney cares so much about the resales at the DVC 1, but if a recession hits and a bunch of Riviera owners need to unload their points, it allows Disney to take more back at ROFR.

The person who buys your contract can use it everywhere you can use it today. It's just Riviera, and then later Reflections, that they'll be shut out of. Not a big deal now. In the future? Who knows ... As long as BCV/BWV/BRV are still in the mix, I think your hypothetical future buyer will still get quite some value out of it. The resale price for DVC 1 points after 1/19 will not be as steeply discounted as the resale price for DVC 2 points.

Oh, and this virtually assures that DVC doesn't care if you rent your points, because that will keep visitors coming in to the parks. And even if you rent your points for someone to stay at Riviera, that's a new potential direct buyer RIGHT THERE.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Doesn't say specifically. Only "official" info I have found is on the Members' Website:

"Update to Disney Vacation Club Resort Access for Contracts Not Purchased Directly from Disney

Effective January 19, 2019, only Members who purchase directly from Disney will be able to use their Vacation Points at the 14 existing Disney Vacation Club Resorts or future Resorts—such as Disney’s Riviera Resort or Reflections – A Disney Lakeside Lodge. Resale contracts purchased for the existing 14 Disney Vacation Club Resorts will only be able to exchange Points into those 14 Resorts.

This change does not apply to contracts purchased prior to January 19, 2019. Contracts gifted to family members will continue to have the same Resort access as before the ownership transfer.

The eligibility rules for Membership Extras and RCI access remain unchanged.

The Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Guide has been amended accordingly."

One poster said that a chat CM told him that it meant submitted to ROFR process. Also reports from a few of the brokers stating the same thing. But OTOH, there are also reports of some guides and MC CMs that say closed.

It would be very unfair if it means completely closed and not in ROFR. Disney could be accused of taking their sweet time with ROFR to screw new resale buyers. It wouldn’t be fair at all to people who heard the announcement and rushed to purchase as soon as they could. The whole closing process can take 60-80 days. Unless Disney announced this 60-80 days ago this would be a really crappy thing to do.

 

[thebigman65]

It would be very unfair if it means completely closed and not in ROFR. Disney could be accused of taking their sweet time with ROFR to screw new resale buyers. It wouldn’t be fair at all to people who heard the announcement and rushed to purchase as soon as they could. The whole closing process can take 60-80 days. Unless Disney announced this 60-80 days ago this would be a really crappy thing to do.

it means submitted to Disney.....not closed.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

it means submitted to Disney.....not closed.

I know. But some have said they’ve been told the opposite and I was expressing the opinion that IF that was the case (which I do not believe it is) then it would be really unfair.

 

[jade1]

but I didn't think a DVC2 would happen.

See I'm kinda the opposite. We also bought BLT after we found it wasn't DVC2 (thought for sure it would be walking to MK), then expected GFV and POLY to for sure be in DVC2.

Never dreamt we would get those. Still shocked actually.

Now we also get Riviera and Reflections as well, just not resale contracts but those get the 14 including BCV/BWV/CCR/BLT/POLY and GFV-far better choices than Riviera and Reflection IMO.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

ROFR is/was supposed to keep values high, for owners who wish to sell later. Right? That's kinda what it was there for. So I think most people rightfully felt that ROFR would keep values from tanking. It wouldn't be like selling some other timeshare, where you pretty much give it away.

ROFR is typically a measure used to retain control of an asset even after selling. DVC wants to keep a measure of control over resales. I've never been of the belief it was meant to prop up prices although it does seem to have nudged them now and then.

 

[thebigman65]

I know. But some have said they’ve been told the opposite and I was expressing the opinion that IF that was the case (which I do not believe it is) then it would be really unfair.

My bad....yes that would be totally unfair for sure!

 

[motherof5]

Honestly I thought that was 4/4/16.

So true. Sad I didn't buy before this date

 

[keishashadow]

DVC just destroyed the resale value of everyone's contract who doesn't hold it till the contract expires. Since the average owner holds their contract for 8-10 years, I think it is safe to say that they have F***** over their customers (direct and resale). Most customers though are too ****** to figure this out.

There is the law, there is what is ethical (we even teach this at university business courses) and then there is the excuse of justifying everything and anything in the name of shareholder value. I wouldn't get into business with someone that follows that last approach, and I'm afraid that DVC has turned into that creature.

Was surprised to read the TS ownership stats. Thought most DVC’rs were in for the long run.

It’s my understanding that in the state of Florida, TS sales people are not legally permitted to represent the purchase as an investment material. However, I can see one watching the value rise per point as to direct & resales then thinking they made money, if only on paper.

We bought in via resale years ago for cash just to test the waters. After our first trip ‘home’ DH was hooked on DVC and we added on twice within months. Once the youngest DS was out of college, we added on twice again at AKV. We have a combo of direct sales and resale, grandfathered in thus far (knock on wood!)

Retirement is not far off on our horizon, we thought we were done purchasing. However, this change in policy may very well benefit some people looking to add onto existing contracts. As a realtor, wouldn’t be surprised to see a buyers’ market pop up on resale contracts at the less popular resorts. Will be interesting to see at what price point DVC tends to exercise ROFR going forward.

Agreed it could be a problem. That is why the 7-11 home priority will be very important for you to grab. Hopefully Disney has something up their sleeves to limit Riviera Direct purchasers (assuming no one sells there) from flooding the legacy resorts assuming most are no longer grand fathered. That would be the worse case scenario.

The old buy where you want to stay adage still holds water.

This feels like a real timeshare now.. I can see all 14 resort contract values diminishing greatly as 2042 approaches.

I never expected anything else. Eventually, the value was going to drop. I do not consider the purchase of any TS as a financial investment. I do have concerns as to the increasing difficulty of securing popular reservations at the 11 month mark, let alone switching things up at 7 months.

well... I just made an offer and now I am stressing out.. been on the fence for over a year and then this came out... I have always thought I needed more points, so I figured may as well get them now so I can use them everywhere... but I didn't even think about the resale issue. I am not planning to resale, I plan to give them to my son hes only 10... but anything can change. It was always good to know it was a decent investment.. made it more worth it.. now maybe not.. ugh. I got in too late.... Just starting to enjoy the magic and its becoming less magical

What’s more magical than knowing you will have many more years of DVC visits? Good luck

It was my intent to eventually deed over several of our contracts to my now adult kids. Wonder if they will be grandfathered in with the new change at this point?

 

[ziravan]

Was surprised to read the TS ownership stats. Thought most DVC’rs were in for the long run.

It’s my understanding that in the state of Florida, TS sales people are not legally permitted to represent the purchase as an investment material. However, I can see one watching the value rise per point as to direct & resales then thinking they made money, if only on paper.

We bought in via resale years ago for cash just to test the waters. After our first trip ‘home’ DH was hooked on DVC and we added on twice within months. Once the youngest DS was out of college, we added on twice again at AKV. We have a combo of direct sales and resale, grandfathered in thus far (knock on wood!)

Retirement is not far off on our horizon, we thought we were done purchasing. However, this change in policy may very well benefit some people looking to add onto existing contracts. As a realtor, wouldn’t be surprised to see a buyers’ market pop up on resale contracts at the less popular resorts. Will be interesting to see at what price point DVC tends to exercise ROFR going forward.



The old buy where you want to stay adage still holds water.



I never expected anything else. Eventually, the value was going to drop. I do not consider the purchase of any TS as a financial investment. I do have concerns as to the increasing difficulty of securing popular reservations at the 11 month mark, let alone switching things up at 7 months.



What’s more magical than knowing you will have many more years of DVC visits? Good luck

It was my intent to eventually deed over several of our contracts to my now adult kids. Wonder if they will be grandfathered in with the new change at this point?

The notification on the website specifically said gifting memberships to family will maintain the grandfathered status.

 

[ray3127]

I just don't understand the motive for this. Doesn't a strong resale market only benefit DVC? They can ROFR whenever they want and resell at direct prices. All resales were sold direct originally so Disney made their profit. They don't seem to be having trouble selling CCV direct. There has to be more to this..... I keep coming back to not understanding how a resale market hurts Disney..... Do they just want to sell direct at a faster rate? Are they hurting for a cash influx that much? Too much expansion lately? Something just doesn't add up to me.....

I spoke with my guide yesterday, who I firmly believe is "one of the good ones". He told me that his "conspiracy theory" is that Disney wants a bigger piece of the resale market. They are tired of missing out on so many potential sales. After thinking about it, I have to say that I agree with him.

Quite simply, Disney doesn't have enough inventory at the sold out resorts. This is one way they ultimately hope to control more of the resale market. Given the (pretty unbelievable) direct price increases, is that such a bad thing? Resale prices should track with the direct price increase, at least to some extent. And those don't seem to be slowing down.

Now, if Disney started letting ROFR prices slide, then resale values would fall. But they can't let them decline too much... I just don't see the case for that.

As for the argument of "as time goes on these contracts lose value".... I really think it's overblown. BCV/BWV values were always going to decline as expiration dates neared. Is it going to be that different now? With SO MANY properties in the system, what are the odds of getting a reservation at 7 months anyway? Isn't the prevailing advice "buy where you want to stay?" I bought BCV to stay there, not trade out. As do most all other resale buyers.

The real people getting screwed are direct buyers of Riviera and future properties... At least we have SOME options. They won't have ANY.

I'll also say that if this gives Disney the ability (or motivation) to ultimately acquire and sell more points directly, it doesn't really bother me. I've been on a waitlist for direct points at an in demand resort since July, and I see no end in sight. If I could actually call Disney up and have those points secured in a reasonable amount of time, I would be very happy. So they may actually be trying to address that problem here, to an extent.

I still think the whole thing is dumb, and it rubs me the wrong way. But I also think the real value is in the 14 original resorts anyway, at least considering the reasons I bought in (location, location, location). Not much has *really* changed for me. And I don't think the resale market will tank as a result. Disney isn't trying to hurt the resale market, per se, they just want to control it, and yes, make more $.

 

[Madame]

Quite simply, Disney doesn't have enough inventory at the sold out resorts.

To meet demand? Sure they could, through ROFR. They just don’t think the profit margins are worth their time.