Jan 19, 2019 - The day the magic died

Discussion in 'DVC-Mousecellaneous' started by DougEMG, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. ziravan

    ziravan Welcome Home

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    How many of the rooms are being used by owners? All the renters would not be allowed to participate.

    As a new perk, something not seen before, there’d be no need to grandfather to prior resale owners. It’s debatable there’s even a need to extend it to past direct owners. If the goal is to make a DVC II, that’d certainly kickstart it.

    “For direct purchases at Riviera and new resorts going forward...”

    The numbers can be controlled.

    Even so, that’s just an example. When millions of people per month are crossing your turnstiles, the opportunities are limitless as to what you can do short of being a bother to people.
     
  2. cheryl.UK

    cheryl.UK DIS Veteran

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    So, here's the thing. There are 14 resorts we can use on new resales and 2 we can't. Is that really such a terrible deal? I repeat, there are 14 resorts we can use. So the same number we can currently use. If I buy at $90 per point on on the 18th, I'm buying into 14 current resorts. OK so we know of at leat 2 more that we would be able to use, but really we bought into the 14 we already know and which are great. On the 19th if I spend my $90 per point, I just get the 14 resorts.

    The way i see it, 14 resorts is plenty.
     
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  4. cheryl.UK

    cheryl.UK DIS Veteran

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    Also, in the future, I see a time when we are swapping points between us. Inconvenient yes but a way around the rules
     
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  5. DanCio

    DanCio Earning My Ears

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    You're correct, 14 resorts is plenty and especially the specific resorts. Why stay at Riviera when you can stay at Boardwalk?

    I read a few posts in this thread that basically said Disney is killing the resale market and what are they going to do when they go to sell their DVC contract? From Day 1, Disney has had the basic Value, Concept, idea, whatever you want to call it, "Buy it, Keep It For Life and Never Sell it!" Why would you want to, it's Disney.

    You're not supposed to sell in the first place. Why people who bought into DVC and expect them to change their marketing strategies to suit them is beyond me. No one was ever supposed to sell their DVC membership. This is why they don't care abut the Resale market. Resellers don't fit the mold. They don't fit their idea of a DVC Member.

    Some are calling Riviera DVC 2. Well, if that's the case, it will be a very small DVC 2. They have enough space to build 6 to 8 new resorts, and all of them can't be exclusively DVC. And if they want to build another gate, then maybe they have space for 6 more resorts. They can't build a whole lot near the parks. DVC 2 should probably be called DVC 1b.

    The changes after 1/19 to Riviera, Reflections and going forward are to get people back into the Disney idea of what a DVC Member is.
     
  6. KAT4DISNEY

    KAT4DISNEY Glad to be a test subject

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    Just had to quote this again following the report from wdwinfo that "Disney CEO Bob Iger earned $65.6 million in 2018. This was an 80% increase from 2017 when Iger made $36.3 million".

    Not that I think he actually pays for churros in the park anyway. And if he does, no, he's not thinking about their price.

    The odd things is that my Disney stock did not increase proportionally to his pay this past year. :rolleyes1
     
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  7. Marc Feldstein

    Marc Feldstein Earning My Ears

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    "I think that we can safely say that Disney has now officially killed the magic with DVC and turned it into every other timeshare out there. From now on, the magic words should be 'Buyer Beware'"

    DVC is far from going down the tubes or appearing like another time-share.

    1. If you go with time-shares run by hotel organizations you have the 'opportunity' to stay in the same size room, the same weekend, at the same location year, after year, after year.
    Typically, anyone who has bought before you, going back a decade has seniority.
    You technically can stay elsewhere, but good luck.
    Also, for some of these hotel chains, you are 'adjacent' to where most people want to
    be in a city. And by adjacent, I mean within 5 miles.....


    2. The third-party resale market has diluted the ownership value of DVC as well as the ability to get the hotel you want when you want it.
    At some point, any BRAND worth their salt has to protect it's value and clients.

    3. DVC has its faults. Some are based on it being linked to a for-profit organization that just gave its out-going CEO a 60% raise.
    I'm not certain that DVC advocates when it comes to seamless split stays or moonlight magic events.
    I also think California residents are to DVC like that aunt or uncle no one talks about, wants to see, etc.

    4. Yet, even with the points changes and ticket price changes (which are out of DVC control), consider the cost to stay at anything but a motel 6, go to a 3 hour
    football game with decent seats, and get a $7 watered-down soda in a plastic cup....

    As others have said, you could easily spend 14 hours at a Disney Park.
    The WDW and Disneyland resorts are truly destinations in and of themselves as are Vero, Hilton Head and Aulani.
    As someone with kids and who doesn't gamble, there is no better cruise-line on the high
    seas than Disney's.
    Have you seen what a certain other cruise-line recently did? I think the term is nickel and dime.

    I don't think there -is- a re-sale market for the hotel-based timeshares. To me, DVC never should have had one.
    Can you rent-out points with the other time-shares?
    DVC revolutionized the time-share industry.

    Just as your cable company, cellphone organization, or favorite airline, DVC is not perfect.
    If one can do better, avoid the superlatives (which is not saying don't complain) and go to the aforementioned hotel-based or independent time-shares.
    Those are the ones that have led to a sub-industry of lawyers getting people out of traditional time-shares.
    If you think you can find better, have at it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
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  8. ziravan

    ziravan Welcome Home

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    Keep it for 50 years - is actually a bad business model for Disney. All those resales are changing owner hands from someone tired of Disney and no longer spending money in the parks into eager new owners ready to drop some coin.

    Disney should want that.
     
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  9. KAT4DISNEY

    KAT4DISNEY Glad to be a test subject

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    They probably want people to be tired of it all and just let points expire then DVC rents the rooms for breakage. Back when DVC first started it might have worked. Then the internet exploded.
     
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  10. Eastcoast02

    Eastcoast02 Mouseketeer

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    Ohhh American greed, it makes me sick! At what point are you even thinking about your income when you already make 30+ million annually. Meanwhile us common folk are lucky to see annual increases that match or out pace inflation. I work in health care and would like to think that my work is a more meaningful contribution to society than Bog Iger.
     
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  11. Pek Chee Kian

    Pek Chee Kian Earning My Ears

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    I believe that DVC may increase the number of points substantially for each category of room for new resorts vs existing resorts. But at the same time, it will reduce the selling price of each point and annual due for newer resorts. By so doing, direct purchaser of Riviera, Reflection and future resorts will enjoy both DVC1 and DVC2 but not for those resale. As for current DVC1, there will not be less incentive to stay in newer resorts because it will be more expensive per night. Hence, its final objective is to sell more direct points.
     
  12. crvetter

    crvetter DIS Veteran

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    I think if they did that then the exchange from the new resorts to the old resorts would be an issue. Riviera buyers would try and flood the other 14 at the 7 months to extend their points in this case. Plus the exchange requires the points to have “similar” value in order to function properly. So if Disney increases Riviera to two times the points cut in half the cost then the value of DVC2 points is 2 for every 1 of DVC1
     
  13. drusba

    drusba I went to Iowa once, and it was closed.

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    Has anyone seen the supposed Buena Vista Disclosure Guide with the changes assertedly made? I would like to see how Disney is attempting to get around many provisions in the official documents that would appear to prohibit what is being done.

    I question whether DVC can legally add Riviera (and future resorts) as a "DVC Resort" to the Disney Vacation Club system that includes the Disney Reservation Component, while prohibiting future resale owners of the existing resorts from reserving Riviera and resale owners of Riviera from reserving other DVC resorts. As I see it, the only thing Disney can legally do is create a whole new DVC 2 system, starting with Riviera, and leave Riviera out of the current DVC Resort system entirely if it wants to restrict rights of future resale owners as it has done.

    Until now, Disney, to combat resales, has merely taken steps to deprive resale owners of incidental benefits, which are not necessarily covered by the official documents. The new rule takes aim directly at material rights of owners and what is being proposed appears prohibited by the Declarations and by BVTC’s DVC Resort Agreements for all the current resorts.

    (I am using the BWV documents here and thus section numbers might be a little different for other resorts but the terms are the same.)

    “Membership in the Disney Vacation Club is an appurtenance to each ownership intertest, which is conveyed by virtue of the execution and delivery of a deed, in accordance with and subject to the terms of this Declaration, the Membership Agreement, and the DVC Resort Agreement. Upon recording the deed, the Club Member is automatically entitled to enjoy the services and benefits associated with membership in the Club. As an appurtenance, the Club Membership, as it it is compromised from time to time, may not be partitioned, hypothecated, bought, sold, exchanged rented or otherwise transferred separately from each ownership interest.” Declarations § 6.4.

    What that says is that membership in the Club is actually part of the real estate ownership interest that you own, that any member (not just those who buy from Disney) automatically becomes a member by the recording of a deed, and any member will thereafter enjoy all the befits and services associated with the Club. Also, if you sell your interest, DVD has a right of first refusal, but if it declines to exercise that right, your transfer results in the purchaser’s automatically becoming a member of the Club, and thus also entitled to all the same services and benefits associated with the Club as you had. Id., §13.1.

    One of the main services and benefits of membership in the Club is to participate in the “DVC Reservation Component” which is defined as the “the exchange component of the Club central reservation system, through which Vacation Homes in any DVC Resort may be reserved using DVC Vacation Points pursuant to priorities, restrictions, and limitations provided by BVTC by virtue of and pursuant to the conditions of a DVC Resort Agreement.” Id., Art. I, Definitions. The Buena Vista Trading Company (BVTC) is the company officially responsible for reservations of resorts, other than your own resort, done at 7 months out. A “Disney Resort” is defined as ”each resort which is entitled to access and use the DVC Reservation Component and other Club services and benefits provided by BVTC by virtue and pursuant to the terms of a DVC Resort Agreement.” Id.

    Then there is the following defining a Member’s rights in the DVC Reservation Component, id. §12.12(b) (which again does not limit itself to purchasers from DVD):

    “The Condominium is a DVC Resort entitling Owners of Ownership Interests in Units committed to the Vacation Ownership Plan to voluntarily participate in the DVC Reservation Component in accordance with the provisions of the DVC Resort Agreement, an initial copy of which is attached as Exhibit ‘H.’ Under the terms of the DVC Resort Agreement, owners at any DVC Resort will be able to access the DVC Reservation Component and use DVC Vacation Points to reserve the use of Vacation Homes and accommodations at other DVC Resorts on a first come, first served basis ….” The section goes on to describe that the right can arise no earlier than one month after owners of a particular resort have had an opportunity to reserve their home resort.

    In other words, any DVC owner (including resale owners) has an absolute right to reserve at any other DVC Resort added to the DVC system.

    Now we turn to the DVC Resort Agreement, Exhibit H to the Declarations. It provides that any owner can use Home Resort Vacation Points as DVC Vacation Points and thus reserve vacation homes at any DVC Resort in accordance with the DVC Reservation Component. Ex. H, §5.2. BVTC has the power to add a new DVC Resort to the system only if “the DVC Resort Agreement executed to effect such association shall be substantially similar to this [BWV] Agreement in all material respects under the circumstances pertaining to each such additional DVC Resort.” Id., §6.1 BVTC does not have any power to amend that provision of the DVC Resort Agreement or the rights created in the Declarations concerning the DVC Reservation Component. Moreover, in accepting any new DVC Resort to the Club, it must always act “in the best interests of the Club Members as a whole with respect to the Club Members’ opportunity to use and enjoy all of the Vacation Homes and related facilities made available through the DVC Reservation Component” id., §6.2b, not in DVD's interests to limit resales.

    Since any owner (past, current or future, and including any resale purchasers) has a right under the Declarations to use the DVC Reservation Component and make reservations at any DVC Resort, I do not see how DVC intends to do what it is doing by simply modifying BVTC’s disclosure guide. BVTC should not be allowed to add any DVC Resort to the system unless all owners (original or resale) at existing resorts can reserve at that resort and all the owners of the new resort (including resale) can reserve at other DVC Resorts.

    Existing members are not immediately impacted by the change since the main issue they would face is its impact, if any, on resale value. Moreover, you have the issue of what solution is considered preferable if the new system is successfully challenged – having Riviera in the DVC system with its limitations or excluding it entirely. DVC is trying to have its cake and eat it to, by creating an entirely new anti-resale DVC system, but meld it with the prior system only for direct purchasers from Disney and acting like it can do that under the existing official documents by only making a change to a BVTC disclosure guide.

    Personally, I am considering sending a letter to DVC outlining my concerns and reserving a right to take action if this ever has an adverse impact on my interests. I have a concern that current Disney management actually does believe it can do anything it feels like to the members, as it has now demonstrated with the 2020 point charts and the new restrictions on resales, and future actions may only get worse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  14. KAT4DISNEY

    KAT4DISNEY Glad to be a test subject

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    My guess has been that it is essentially going to become another trade option similar to the Disney Collection - in order to allow this to happen. When is the new updated POS supposed to be released? On the 19th? I'd think it should provide some answers.
     
  15. kboo

    kboo DIS Veteran

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    Yes. Exactly. And if new direct Riviera buyers realize that at 7mo it's really hard to book anywhere else, then their points may expire, and DVC can rent their rooms out. It will take new direct Riviera buyers a while to learn how this works...

    Who's to say they wouldn't do that? o_O
     
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  16. Donna M

    Donna M DIS Veteran

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    This sounds very plausible.
     
  17. DanCio

    DanCio Earning My Ears

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    Remember who Disney's core market is, a family, who comes down to WDW for a week at a time.

    This is Disney. Their attitude is why would you want to sell a DVC Membership? No one was supposed to sell their DVC Membership. I went to a sales pitch back when they were selling OKW (I haven't been since). They were talking how great it would be to be able to vacation every year at Disney for life. Their DVC Value, Idea, Concept or whatever you want to call it was and is "Buy it, Keep it for life (until it expires) and NEVER SELL IT!" And they have ROFR to keep prices artificially inflated in case someone wants to sell. Back then I seem to recall too, that as a DVC Member you could "exchange" into a regular Disney Resort too.

    Their target was/is a young couple, 20's or 30's with possibly with 2 or 3 kids. They bought, and then when the kids moved out, their kids ought their own DVC Contract. All the empty nesters, retired people, singles at any age were never thought of as serious target market for DVC. They never expected people who come for 2 or 3 nights at a time to buy. And the thing is, a lot of people bought with the idea of selling their DVC Membership at some point and Disney never expected this.

    Resellers drive Disney crazy. They go against their core value. Yeah, they expected some resales but not like they see today. They don't expect Empty Nesters or Retired People to buy. They certainly don't expect people to buy with the idea of reselling some day. I certainly don't fit their "mold". I'm 61, divorced, no girlfriend. I go for longer weekends, Thursday through Sunday, Friday through Monday, Saturday through Tuesday. I probably drive them crazy now that I'm a DVC Member.
     
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  18. DanCio

    DanCio Earning My Ears

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    If you double your prices and lose half your customers you're still ahead because you are working half as much.
     
  19. mikebb

    mikebb Mouseketeer

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    Problem with that as I see it applying to DVC is that one of the principal marketing points is "Save money on Disney vacations!" Now sure, Disney can re-market DVC as a luxury item, but I think there are two issues with that:
    1. What is the "luxury differentiation" over a normal (cash) Disney stay? Sure there is Moonlight Magic, TOTWL, and the DVC "Lounge" at Epcot, but for folks that have a lot of disposable income, these "freebies" aren't really necessary, and can be bought a la carte as part of any VIP Disney experience.
    2. Now you're competing with the likes of the Waldorf and Four Seasons. If your target is middle-upper or upper income earners, you need to up your game. Standard time-share savings like housekeeping once every few days no longer suffices, and you better have concierge-level service available (from what I've read Disney doesn't seem to be having much success with this idea at CCV's Reunion Station.)
     
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  20. ziravan

    ziravan Welcome Home

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    I have yet to figure out how they plan on keeping the points on each side of the barrier they’re trying to construct in balance.

    And the points must stay in balance or the entire booking system will fall apart.

    Over time, more points are going to flow into the L14 resorts than the other way around, particularly since landlocked (resale) owners of the new resorts book them up prior to 7 months: there’d be plenty of space for the new resort (direct) owners to book into the L14 but no corresponding space for L14 owners to exchange into.
     
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  21. DanCio

    DanCio Earning My Ears

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    You both are thinking logically. Disney doesn't think that way. They think a DVC member wants a contract until it expires. They think no one will ever sell. They think everyone has the money to come and pay for tickets for their stay, otherwise why would they come and why would they buy? When someone resells they think "Why in god's name are they reselling? This is Disney!"
     

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