Is it ok for spouse to go to lunch with co-worker of opposite sex?(Inspired by RIDISN

[Magpie]

From a Meme on line that I thought addresses this. Keep in mind it is a Meme, not a direct response. But I think it explains why you want to safeguard a marriage.
If you want something to last forever, you treat it differently. You shield it, you protect it. You never abuse it. You don't expose it to the elements. You don't make it common or ordinary. If it ever becomes tarnished, you lovingly polish it until it gleams like new. It becomes special because you have made it so, and it grows more beautiful and precious as time goes by. (F. Burton Howard.)

I don't want to safeguard my marriage. I want my marriage to be a living, breathing thing. I want it to grow over time, maturing and changing and developing. And living things don't do so well when they're kept under lock and key.

In fact, too much "shielding" and "protecting" and "polishing" can become a form of abuse, far more than exposing your precious thing to the elements (ie, sunlight, fresh air, truth, honesty, trust) ever could be.

I love my marriage. I also love my children, too. I think they are extremely beautiful and precious. But, not because I spend all my time protecting them or my relationship with them, but because I've given them the freedom to become who they are and I've known when to step back and merely cheer from the sidelines.

And while my marriage and my children are uncommonly rare in my own eyes, I also know that in reality they are the most delightfully common and ordinary things. A happy marriage should be so common and ordinary that everyone has a chance at enjoying it. Similarly, children are everywhere, sprouting like unruly dandelions on your front lawn, and that's absolutely the way it should be.

As long as we're sharing memes...

Or alternately...

 

[because]

I have absolutely no problem with my husband having a lunch date or even drinks after work with coworkers or even ex-coworkers. He has a standing monthly lunch dates with several female bosses/coworkers or ex-bosses now at other companies. He always mentions he is going out with so-and-so and it is no secret.

He is an engineering executive and the business world has changed so much, especially for new job opportunities. It is all about networking now and who you know not what you know. It would be foolish of me to be jealous and force him eliminate 50% of his networking opportunities just because I might be insecure. I trust him implicitly that he is as professional as if he would be lunching with a male coworker.

I might change my mind if I found out he was having meetings and lying about it.

 

[DisneyHardin]

Reading the comments here has been so interesting. I have no problems with my DH going to lunch with women and he has no problems with me going to lunch with men. I didn't even realize that some couples did have problems with this until a couple years ago I went to lunch with a guy from work and two of my friends at work were appalled that I had done it. They both go to the same church and told me that at their church they are taught that it is a sin to be in a one on one situation with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse.

 

[because]

My husband and I do not do things one on one with the opposite sex. The only exception is that we are OK with it if it's work related. Examples: On campus study session in the library or lunch with co-worker at a dining location on the company premises. We still keep theses interactions in the public sphere. I think a lot of people felt themselves incapable of cheating until they did it. It's a choice we've made to safeguard our marriage.

If my husband felt inclined to cheat (hasn't yet in 33 years) then there would be far bigger problems in our marriage than lunches with coworkers that was creating dissatisfaction with the marriage. Everybody's marriage is different, but in ours a controlling edict like yours would have both of us chafing at the boundaries intended to "safeguard" the marriage. For us, it is better to trust completely.

 

[because]

Interesting question. Let me ask a slightly different question. Would you be okay with your spouse or so going to lunch with a person (not necessarily co worker) of the opposite sex?

Absolutely.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Absolutely.

Same here. We both have lunch with friends...gender doesn't matter.

 

[wilkeliza]

Reading the comments here has been so interesting. I have no problems with my DH going to lunch with women and he has no problems with me going to lunch with men. I didn't even realize that some couples did have problems with this until a couple years ago I went to lunch with a guy from work and two of my friends at work were appalled that I had done it. They both go to the same church and told me that at their church they are taught that it is a sin to be in a one on one situation with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse.

On the more conservative side on any religion it is pretty common. I was kind of thrown back the first time I was told I couldn't play with the son of a friend of my fiance's brother-in-law. The reason I wasn't Jewish. It was weird to me and baffling especially because my fiance's family isn't orthodox by any means. We also had to sit in different rooms between men and women. So even though we were all together women sat in one room and men sat in other. It was so odd. I do know the extreme has caused their once close relationship to suffer because I guess they weren't originally orthodox and hardly even conservative and then came to find this belief and so old friendships that were very very close before the change suffered.

 

[PlainJane]

I don't want to safeguard my marriage. I want my marriage to be a living, breathing thing. I want it to grow over time, maturing and changing and developing. And living things don't do so well when they're kept under lock and key.

In fact, too much "shielding" and "protecting" and "polishing" can become a form of abuse, far more than exposing your precious thing to the elements (ie, sunlight, fresh air, truth, honesty, trust) ever could be.

I love my marriage. I also love my children, too. I think they are extremely beautiful and precious. But, not because I spend all my time protecting them or my relationship with them, but because I've given them the freedom to become who they are and I've known when to step back and merely cheer from the sidelines.

And while my marriage and my children are uncommonly rare in my own eyes, I also know that in reality they are the most delightfully common and ordinary things. A happy marriage should be so common and ordinary that everyone has a chance at enjoying it. Similarly, children are everywhere, sprouting like unruly dandelions on your front lawn, and that's absolutely the way it should be.

As long as we're sharing memes...

Or alternately...

Given the rest of this post, I found the Beauty and the Beast reference to be an odd choice.

If my husband felt inclined to cheat (hasn't yet in 33 years) then there would be far bigger problems in our marriage than lunches with coworkers that was creating dissatisfaction with the marriage. Everybody's marriage is different, but in ours a controlling edict like yours would have both of us chafing at the boundaries intended to "safeguard" the marriage. For us, it is better to trust completely.

It's a choice, not an edict. It's not really a fair/honest discussion if you're not describing my position accurately.

 

[Magpie]

Reading the comments here has been so interesting. I have no problems with my DH going to lunch with women and he has no problems with me going to lunch with men. I didn't even realize that some couples did have problems with this until a couple years ago I went to lunch with a guy from work and two of my friends at work were appalled that I had done it. They both go to the same church and told me that at their church they are taught that it is a sin to be in a one on one situation with someone of the opposite sex who is not your spouse.

This story reminds me again, both how little difference there can be between certain faiths, and conversely how incredibly wide the differences can be, within each faith!

The first time I became aware of this, was when I was involved in a Christian homeschool group, many years ago, pre-911. Some of the ladies in my group were excited to share an online link to order "burkinis", because they felt their usual bathing suits might be immodest. Pre-911, there was no negative association in their minds. Some of them chose not to drive, because they thought that driving should be something men do. Some were told by their churches that they should cover their heads with scarves and never cut their hair. Or that they should always wear long dresses. One poor soul had to be talked into getting a job to support herself and her children, after her husband abandoned them. She'd been told by her pastor that it was sinful for a woman to work with men. Fortunately, there were some wise women on the board who knew which Bible quotes they could use to convince her that she could work and still be a good Christian wife.

I realized back then that "Christian" was an umbrella so broad, one person standing under it might not recognize another at all. And that, logically, the same must be true for every other religion in this world, as well. It was very eye-opening for me.

 

[because]

How hard would it be to take another co-worker to the lunch too? Then they would not be alone.

Again, the original poster on the not going to lunch with the opposite sex said ALONE. She didn't say at all. For us, it would be ALONE. So if 4 teachers went to lunch and one was male, they wouldn't be alone.

In our employment, often our lunches with the opposite sex are working lunches with info that is pertinent to just us. The old adage "threes a crowd" can be very real in business lunches. If either one of us had to limit our working lunches, after work drinks, after work dinners, to groups of 3 or more, it would make life a whole lot more difficult.

 

[Magpie]

Given the rest of this post, I found the Beauty and the Beast reference to be an odd choice.

Well, yes, it is a story of two lonely souls making the best of an arranged marriage. But, I thought it'd be fun to put in something from Disney, the advice is good, and I've definitely seen that look on my husband's face, a time or two.

Also, the Beast absolutely sets Belle free, because he loves her. And she returns, because she loves him. I can't imagine either of them getting all insecure about the other spending time in the company of someone of the opposite sex, or even choosing on their own to try to avoid being alone with the opposite sex. It just wouldn't occur to them (like it doesn't occur to many of us) that it'd be a problem, or "dangerous" in any way.

 

[sam_gordon]

It's a choice, not an edict. It's not really a fair/honest discussion if you're not describing my position accurately.

If I understand correctly you (and others) say this is something the spouses decided on their own. Your husband has elected to not go to lunch with a woman and you've elected not to go to lunch (alone) with a man. Do I have that right?

Let me also ask this... IF your husband (for whatever reason) decided to go to lunch with a female co-worker (call it a "working lunch"), comes home and tells you, any idea how you would react?

 

[pryncess527]

I realized back then that "Christian" was an umbrella so broad, one person standing under it might not recognize another at all. And that, logically, the same must be true for every other religion in this world, as well. It was very eye-opening for me.

So true it bears repeating.

 

[luvsJack]

If I understand correctly you (and others) say this is something the spouses decided on their own. Your husband has elected to not go to lunch with a woman and you've elected not to go to lunch (alone) with a man. Do I have that right?

Let me also ask this... IF your husband (for whatever reason) decided to go to lunch with a female co-worker (call it a "working lunch"), comes home and tells you, any idea how you would react?

I am not PlainJane but sort of have this one thing in common with her so thought I would throw my two cents in. DH drives a truck so he eats meals in truck stops quite a bit. Now there are extremely few female truck drivers so its not something he ever even thought about before. But he told me that he was eating and waiting on a driver from his company that was going the same way as he to come in. A female driver came in to eat and asked to sit with dh. He didn't want to be rude and let her sit with him. His friend came a few minutes later so no harm no foul anyway. She was a friendly sort but apparently had been given a hard time by other drivers in other truck stops. She heard dh talking to me and dd on the phone before she sat down and figured he was "safe" (thank God for her, he is!!)

Its not like I am going to divorce him over a meal nor him divorce me over it.

Not sure about PlainJane but others here are making this in to a way bigger deal than it really is. Its not something one thinks about all the time. Its just the way it is.

 

[Magpie]

I am not PlainJane but sort of have this one thing in common with her so thought I would throw my two cents in. DH drives a truck so he eats meals in truck stops quite a bit. Now there are extremely few female truck drivers so its not something he ever even thought about before. But he told me that he was eating and waiting on a driver from his company that was going the same way as he to come in. A female driver came in to eat and asked to sit with dh. He didn't want to be rude and let her sit with him. His friend came a few minutes later so no harm no foul anyway. She was a friendly sort but apparently had been given a hard time by other drivers in other truck stops. She heard dh talking to me and dd on the phone before she sat down and figured he was "safe" (thank God for her, he is!!)

Its not like I am going to divorce him over a meal nor him divorce me over it.

Not sure about PlainJane but others here are making this in to a way bigger deal than it really is. Its not something one thinks about all the time. Its just the way it is.

This is a perfect example of "living in different worlds".

In my world, a coworker asking to sit with another opposite sex coworker at lunch would be such a complete non-issue, that most people would not even think to mention it to their spouse when they got home that evening. They wouldn't hesitate to say yes (unless they secretly couldn't stand the coworker, that is) and the coworker wouldn't have to look for a "safe" married person to sit with. There would be no need for a friend to sit in, in order to preserve the appearance pf propriety. Heck, in my world, that poor woman would almost never have to worry about a request for lunch being taken as an invitation to sex, and any harassment of her would be dealt with swiftly and severely, and there would be career consequences for her harasser.

I expect this was a random encounter, two truckers passing in the night. But what if their routes coincided a lot and your husband decided to start eating lunch regularly with this woman? What if they became friends?

Realistically, what would be the harm?

 

[NFLDERS]

I am not PlainJane but sort of have this one thing in common with her so thought I would throw my two cents in. DH drives a truck so he eats meals in truck stops quite a bit. Now there are extremely few female truck drivers so its not something he ever even thought about before. But he told me that he was eating and waiting on a driver from his company that was going the same way as he to come in. A female driver came in to eat and asked to sit with dh. He didn't want to be rude and let her sit with him. His friend came a few minutes later so no harm no foul anyway. She was a friendly sort but apparently had been given a hard time by other drivers in other truck stops. She heard dh talking to me and dd on the phone before she sat down and figured he was "safe" (thank God for her, he is!!)

Its not like I am going to divorce him over a meal nor him divorce me over it.

Not sure about PlainJane but others here are making this in to a way bigger deal than it really is. Its not something one thinks about all the time. Its just the way it is.

This is a perfect example of "living in different worlds".

In my world, a coworker asking to sit with another opposite sex coworker at lunch would be such a complete non-issue, that most people would not even think to mention it to their spouse when they got home that evening. They wouldn't hesitate to say yes (unless they secretly couldn't stand the coworker, that is) and the coworker wouldn't have to look for a "safe" married person to sit with. There would be no need for a friend to sit in, in order to preserve the appearance pf propriety. Heck, in my world, that poor woman would almost never have to worry about a request for lunch being taken as an invitation to sex, and any harassment of her would be dealt with swiftly and severely, and there would be career consequences for her harasser.

I expect this was a random encounter, two truckers passing in the night. But what if their routes coincided a lot and your husband decided to start eating lunch regularly with this woman? What if they became friends?

Realistically, what would be the harm?

Well, I'm guessing he would have to be rude.

 

[ronandannette]

So what makes the presence of food a problem? Lots of professional relationships and deals are started over casual, unofficial meals and coffees.

We're fine thanks - neither of us have been hindered professionally by our lunch habits.

What bothers me about that, even if it worked for the couple in the relationship, is it limits others. As a couple of PPs mentioned the lack of mentoring of women in heavily make fields is a real problem, and this agreement between spouses would further limit any woman working where the husband does. Like a PP my husband makes a point of making sure the women he works with also get that mentoring and are not forgotten in discussions about who to promote etc. I'm proud of him for that.

And even among friends, what happens when one of "the boys" invites a new friend who loves fishing to come along and it's a woman? Does the spouse back out of the trip last minute leaving everyone feeling awkward? Or does the stay at home dad in the neighborhood (and his kids) get left out of playgroups and socializing that's deemed only for "the girls"?

I sure hope people with such rules in their relationships limit themselves socially and career wise so as not to be in a position to limit others instead

You're extrapolating waaaaay past anything that was actually said by any PP. Most of us were quite clear about not being alone with opposite-sex friends; not refusing to be in co-ed groups. Why on earth would being in a co-ed group be a problem?

All the examples you give are of outside of work social scenarios. And in those cases, who you hang out with is totally none of anyone else's business.

But this initial post and the zombie-resuscitation is specifically talking about co-workers of the opposite sex. And in those cases, deciding to eliminate half the population from perfectly normal social interactions really does impact others. It is one of the many teeny-tiny disparities that combine to perpetuate stereotypes and enforce pretty crappy gendered expectations. One more challenge a person has to overcome to succeed in a field dominated by the other gender. One less way that a female engineer gets to be treated like an equal. One more way the male teachers is left out by his colleagues.

Sure, on an individual basis it might not make much of a difference, but inequities like these add up.

Oh, please. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing I need to do with or for my male staff members that can't be done in the office or at the job-site; we don't need to go to lunch together. I happen to work in an industry that is extremely male-dominant. Yet, here I am - I'm their boss. All my coaching, evaluating, correcting, supporting and strategizing takes place in a professional setting. It's the same between me and my male superiors - we deal with work at work; not socializing with them privately certainly hasn't held me back.

Wow, this zombie thread has been very eye opening. And I'm feeling quite grateful that I don't appear to inhabit the same world as some posters.

When I was in university, I lived off campus. Twice, my roommates were male. Not a problem. My husband also lived off campus, at his university, and shared his housing with women on multiple occasions.

My husband and I have been married for over two decades now. Last Friday, I made a date with long time male friend to go dress shopping. Why? Because he's amenable, because shopping bores my husband to tears, and because my daughter isn't much keener either. We've been friends since I was 19, well before I met my husband. My husband and I meet him (and another friend) for lunch once a week, every week. I have no worries at this point that either of us will accidentally "slip", even if he IS very dear to me.

My husband has mentored women, and been mentored by them, in his workplace. His bosses have been almost as likely to be female, as they are to be male. He frequently goes to lunch with coworkers, alone, in groups, male or female.

My husband recently asked me if I'd like to go to Europe for a week. He has meetings to attend, and one of his (female) colleagues is bringing her husband. The two of them were thinking that if I came, then her husband and I could spend a couple days visiting museums and seeing the sights, while our spouses are in meetings.

Tomorrow, my husband is travelling out of town with a female colleague to attend a work related meeting in another province. They're car pooling, just the two of them.

This is SO not an issue, for anyone.

And I'm awfully glad for that. I can't imagine how complicated life would be, if we had to view every extra marital male/female interaction with caution.

What world would that be, Magpie? The imaginary one made up by the wild exaggerations and mischaracterizations by some in this thread? I don't live in that world either.

 

[tarheelmjfan]

This is one crazy thread. Frankly, so me people are getting downright rude with their objections. The funny thing is those who are claiming to be the most open minded are being the most judgmental. Gotta love the DIS. FWIW, I think personal experience plays a factor in our opinions on the topic.

I think it's important to distinguish between coworkers going out as a small group or having an occasional meal with a coworker or client & those who eat alone with the same individual on a daily basis, when there are other options. I don't think anyone thinks there's any danger in the first two situations. Experience has taught me to not totally discount the relationship in the last situation. Some here don't appear to be distinguishing between the situations. I don't know, if they don't understand the type of relationship people who are saying they wouldn't agree with it are referring to or if they're purposefully choosing to ignore what people are saying to make their own point. To me, it's pretty obvious which type of relationship those against it are referring to.

As for my experiences, I've worked 3 places, along with being a SAHM, then joined DH in our own business. At the last job, prior to working with DH, I worked with a small group of 7. Our supervisor was having an affair with a coworker. The seven of us were required to go out for breakfast on Friday mornings. Our supervisor was the only supervisor in the whole department that required that. I'm convinced they dragged us along, so they would have an excuse to have breakfast together in public. They made no attempt to hide their attraction to each other. Our supervisor's wife worked at the same place in a different dept. As far as I know, no one ever told her. I left that job, because I'd had enough of that type of environment.

The 2nd job was with a group of 12 or so. Once again, the boss was cheating with an employee. His wife found out & made him retire. Our coworker got pregnant, but told her DH it was his. As far as I know, her DH never knew about the affair.

My 1st job was for a large corporation. That place was nicknamed Peyton Place (if anyone remembers or has heard of that show). From that experience, I could write a book about people cheating on their spouses. Saying 7 out of every 100 cheated would be a conservative estimate. Just one of the relationships was a couple that had supposedly been seeing each other at work & any other free time they could steal for 10 years, before I went to work there. I can't confirm that was true, but they were definitely together for the seven years I was there. The worst part was they were both married & the two couples were supposedly best friends. They did everything together. Apparently, their spouses had no clue they had been having an affair all those years. IME, it's not unusual for one spouse to leave another for their spouses good friend. Some cheaters convinced their spouse they'd never do it again, which lasted a couple years, before they moved onto the next affair. It was amazing to see how many spouses kept believing this time was the last time, even though it kept happening. Most people ended up divorcing their spouse, after they realized the new relationship was going to work out, at least for the time being. How did I know all of this? Cheating was so prevalent that people didn't bother to keep it a secret. When I was pregnant, I even had a supervisor ask me to leave DH & he'd help me raise DS. Yes, he was married. That was enough for me. I quit shortly after. I still regret not reporting him, but I just wanted out of the situation. It was truly a toxic place for relationships.

If you've never worked in an environment where cheating was common, you're lucky. I'm really surprised so many don't appear to find it as common as I've experience in my professional & personal life. I'm not saying anyone here has a SO that would cheat nor am I saying you're wrong for feeling the way you do. I don't know any of your spouses/fiances/etc., but I personally wouldn't put it past anyone, if the stars aligned.

 

[PlainJane]

If I understand correctly you (and others) say this is something the spouses decided on their own. Your husband has elected to not go to lunch with a woman and you've elected not to go to lunch (alone) with a man. Do I have that right?

Let me also ask this... IF your husband (for whatever reason) decided to go to lunch with a female co-worker (call it a "working lunch"), comes home and tells you, any idea how you would react?

I wouldn't react like he was cheating, if that was the curiosity. I wouldn't be mad. I would want to know if he had changed his stance or if it was a one off thing. It's something that he takes very seriously, so it would be very out of character for him to just change his mind (he doesn't just randomly change his mind about anything).

He went to Panera a few months ago with two female co-workers. One had to leave suddenly, so then it was just him and the one remaining co-worker. While he was considering what he wanted to do, the remaining female co-worker bailed because she has the same stance that we do.

 

[Magpie]

I wouldn't react like he was cheating, if that was the curiosity. I wouldn't be mad. I would want to know if he had changed his stance or if it was a one off thing. It's something that he takes very seriously, so it would be very out of character for him to just change his mind (he doesn't just randomly change his mind about anything).

He went to Panera a few months ago with two female co-workers. One had to leave suddenly, so then it was just him and the one remaining co-worker. While he was considering what he wanted to do, the remaining female co-worker bailed because she has the same stance that we do.

Whoops! I thought "Panera" was a place, not a restaurant. My apologies, PlainJane!