If your 9 y.o. snooped in their Christmas gifts - UPDATE post #96

[luvsJack]

You people that don't allow a little snooping are taking ALL the fun out of Christmas for a kid! My brother and I had the most fun every year trying to figure out where the gifts were and what they were and who they were for. (he was 6 years older than me by the way, so REALLY should have known better). Some of my favorite memories of my brother of are me and him banding together while Mom was at work snooping for the gifts . She always had a couple we didn't find so the surprise was still there and besides I don't remember it ruining anything by knowing ahead--just made the anticpation more! We were probably to blame for a few gifts that got lost (and have not been found these many years later! )



As for the lying--the rule in our house: you don't lie, we won't ask stupid questions. In other words, I never asked my kids if they did something I knew they did. I say "you did xxxxxx and because of that you will get xxxxx". If I knew they did it there was no discussion, no room for denial, no questions. They knew they did it, I knew they did it; why open up all this abiltiy to deny it?

 

[jodifla]

I guess it all just comes down to what peoples punishment/crime level is. I personally don't think that the Mum is making a federal case of out it. Would I have done it this way, probably not but then I also don't know if this is some type of repeat offender of a child, what transpired before the child found the gift etc. What would you have done if your child had done this?

With regards to the child I mentioned having to return the item that they took. Would it make any difference to you to know that the item taken was a stone from a water feature.

Again this would be an example of crime/punishment level some people would say that isn't worth making a massive deal about while others would have done what the parent did.

I guess I just can't understand why everyone thinks that their parenting style is the correct way of doing it and therefore all other options are terrible parents styles that are clearly going to damage the child beyond repair.

You are also right about if the mother had smacked the child everyone would be all over them. That said though you would have to be an idiot to admit to smacking your child on one of these forums unless you are very thick skinned.

Kirsten

Some of us have been VICTIMS of this type of parental "discipline" personally and/or watched close friends receive this type of "parenting." It teaches kids that the world is unsafe, unfair and unjust. That you can't count on anything. That anything you have can be taken from you on the WHIM of an adult. It teaches kids fear.

Do kids change their behavior (well, at least in front of parents)? Sure. Is it for ANY of the right reasons? No.

I thought it was horrible then, and I think it's worse now that I'm an adult and I KNOW there are better ways to treat children (oh, without turning them into "snowflakes" or lawbreakers.)

In fact, once you start treating a child this way, you make them angry. Keep it up, and you make them angry for the rest of their lives.

The only friend I have whose child has landed in jail had this kind of parenting, where one parent was quick to overreact. Lowering the hammer on this kid did not work....it threw gasoline on the fire.

 

[robinb]

For all of you that feel this punishment is cruel and visious and bordering on abuse, just how would have you disciplined. Please explain, I'd like to know what kind of offense lying is in your home, and just what actions you take to teach your child how wrong they were in this situation?

I'll bite. The "wrong doing" and the lying are two incidents. The punishment for lying is a a separate punishment from the "wrong doing" and not a multiplier for the "wrong doing" . For instance, there are two punishments and not just a worse punishment for having lied about the "wrong doing".

In this case, the snooping and lack of surprise is it's own punishment. We have never done the Santa myth so there has never been an overriding desire to keep things super-secret. My DD has snooped a few of her Hanukkah presents this year and I simply shrugged my shoulders and told her that it was not going to be as much fun for her when she finally gets her presents. I was right. The lying would be handled in a different way. I would take away privileges that are important to her: TV time, Computer time, play dates or outside play. I also want to say that I try not to set up my DD in the situation where she feels she needs to lie. I would never ask: "Did you snoop the presents?" when I already knew that she did because that is setting her up for failure. I don't fish for confessions because that kind of thing usually just backfires on everyone.

 

[Scot-n-Michelle]

Just found this thread - oh my what a heated subject - I'll speak up and say that I don't think what the mom did was cruel punishment! Don't think her kids are going to be so scarred for life. To those that think she is a crazy mom - quite judgemental you are - I am sure we all do things as a parent that someone else would feel is over the top and not agree with - everyone parents in a different way! Would I have returned the gifts - no - but they would have gone to someone that was truly in need of them. In our home my kids really understand that Christmas is not about the presents but spending time with those that you love. My daughter (8 years old) just wrote a story by herself last night called "The best Christmas present ever" and it was about all the fun places we are going over the holidays (peoples houses we are visiting). Christmas has become all about the presents and not what it truly should be about. Rules are rules - still sounds like there is something for the child on Christmas morning - and hopefully he has learned his lesson about lying!

 

[tzolkin]

I know this was a while back in the post, but...

You are setting her up to lie (in situations like these, at least) because you are making a point of belaboring the obvious. She wanted her hair cut, you wouldn't let her, and so she took the only option, doing it herself, because she knew that you couldn't undo it once it was done. However, because you are known for insisting on admissions of guilt, she has convinced herself that if she doesn't admit to having done something that she is not supposed to, then it didn't happen, and you won't be disappointed in her. You have, by your actions, encouraged her to believe that lying might actually get her out of the trouble if only she could do it convincingly enough.

You have a thing about getting confessions. Ask yourself why. You knew she had done something wrong, so what was the point of asking her if she did it? Just punish her and be done with it, and forget the whole interrogation aspect. Confession is obviously NOT good for her soul, if she'll go to these lengths and willingly court additional punishment in order to avoid doing it. You are purposely using the hope of avoiding punishment as a trap, and she is falling into it every time, and for that reason she doesn't trust you to be fair with her even if she is honest. (I'm not saying you would not be, as I'm sure you would be, but the root of the problem is that for some reason she doesn't believe that you would be.)

I don't think that you needed to be as touchy-feely as your DH suggested, but I think that what you should have said was something like: "I'm punishing you for cutting your hair after I told you that you could not. Don't bother denying it because it is obvious, and I know that you did it yourself. You disrespected my authority, and your punishment for that is X."

I'm the one whose DD cut her hair.

I understand your logic and mostly agree with you, but I really don't see where I'm some crazy manipulative parent intent on forcing confessions out of my child based on this situation.

First, my daughter never expressed an interest in having her hair cut. I never told her she couldn't get her hair cut, so she wasn't going behind my back by cutting it herself.

She (and I) have fine hair that falls out of a ponytail to about ear length (similar to what she cut). I was standing in the kitchen cooking when I noticed her hair looked strange. My first reaction was to ask "Did you cut your hair?" I really didn't think I was setting her up for a path of lying and denial to avoid getting into trouble, I just noticed something and asked a question. She said no and then started messing with it. Upon closer inspection I realized that she had in fact cut it. From that point on, I never asked her if she cut it again because I knew she had. She began getting overly defensive and denying that she cut it. All I said was, "Honey your hair is obviously cut" but she was yelling and kept saying "No it's not".


As for the bolded portion, what do you do when you don't know if the child has done something wrong? (Not being snarky. I'm really looking for some advice here.) If she lies to me about things that really are of no consequence, how will I know she's not lying when she's 17 and says she went to her friend's house after school? I'm almost to the point where I don't feel that I can trust anything she says.

I lied to my parents constantly when I was a teenager. I even had to come up with elaborate schemes to maintian the lies. They had no idea I had done anything wrong, but every innocent question they asked was an opportunity for me to lie. "How was school?" (I had skipped) "What did you and Susie do?" (I had been out with my forbidden boyfriend) and so on. I really thought I had better relationships with my children, but I'm really worried she will wind up like me anyway.

If you (general you, not you personally) ask whether or not the child committed the offense, you are unconsciously dangling bait that a conflict-averse child will be helpless to resist. Their unconscious response will go something like, "She doesn't know it was me -- I might be able to avoid getting punished if I play this right."

Almost every instance of her lying has not been in response to an offense. Usually it's "Why are you bringing your purse next door?" "I'm not. I don't have a purse."

I understand that a child (and most adults) will lie if they think they can get away with something and avoid punishment, but that is truly not the case in most of these instances. She was not going to be punished for bringing her purse next door, I just asked because I was curious. The issue is the lying for absolutely no reason.

 

[Zeebs]

Some of us have been VICTIMS of this type of parental "discipline" personally and/or watched close friends receive this type of "parenting." It teaches kids that the world is unsafe, unfair and unjust. That you can't count on anything. That anything you have can be taken from you on the WHIM of an adult. It teaches kids fear.

Do kids change their behavior (well, at least in front of parents)? Sure. Is it for ANY of the right reasons? No.

I thought it was horrible then, and I think it's worse now that I'm an adult and I KNOW there are better ways to treat children (oh, without turning them into "snowflakes" or lawbreakers.)

In fact, once you start treating a child this way, you make them angry. Keep it up, and you make them angry for the rest of their lives.

The only friend I have whose child has landed in jail had this kind of parenting, where one parent was quick to overreact. Lowering the hammer on this kid did not work....it threw gasoline on the fire.

I'll bite. The "wrong doing" and the lying are two incidents. The punishment for lying is a a separate punishment from the "wrong doing" and not a multiplier for the "wrong doing" . For instance, there are two punishments and not just a worse punishment for having lied about the "wrong doing".

In this case, the snooping and lack of surprise is it's own punishment. We have never done the Santa myth so there has never been an overriding desire to keep things super-secret. My DD has snooped a few of her Hanukkah presents this year and I simply shrugged my shoulders and told her that it was not going to be as much fun for her when she finally gets her presents. I was right. The lying would be handled in a different way. I would take away privileges that are important to her: TV time, Computer time, play dates or outside play. I also want to say that I try not to set up my DD in the situation where she feels she needs to lie. I would never ask: "Did you snoop the presents?" when I already knew that she did because that is setting her up for failure. I don't fish for confessions because that kind of thing usually just backfires on everyone.

OK I respect that you may feel like this, but I kind of get from both your posts you are on a similar view of this situation. So how do the two things I have bolded differ? The thing is that practically anything can be taken away by a parent.

The world just isn't black and white, everyone is different and children are the same they need different punishments, what works for one will not always work for the other.

In much the same way that not all children that were smacked as children will be damaged for life (I was smacked on occassion, and I am not advocating constant beatings, while you may disagree I feel I am a pretty well rounded person) versus the fact that not all children that are brought up with no smacking in their lives will never turn bad.

The majority of people in the world do the very best they can by their children but you would be hard pushed to find someone who does everything the same as you and has all the same beliefs regarding children as you do.

Kirsten

 

[Hillbeans]

If the mom didn't think it was "cruel punishment" or something unusual she would have posted about it on her mom's message board. She was obviously trying to get a rise out of people by posting it, showing what a hard nose she can be a week before Christmas.

And no, my kids don't snoop and if I wanted something to be kept hidden in my room i'd keep it locked.

Believe me, i'm no perfect parent either but treating snooping at christmas like it's some huge offense up there with lying, cheating, etc....is just taking it overboard IMO. Yes, maybe the boy lied, but there isn't one person on this planet who has never told a lie.

 

[jodifla]

OK I respect that you may feel like this, but I kind of get from both your posts you are on a similar view of this situation. So how do the two things I have bolded differ? The thing is that practically anything can be taken away by a parent.

The world just isn't black and white, everyone is different and children are the same they need different punishments, what works for one will not always work for the other.

In much the same way that not all children that were smacked as children will be damaged for life (I was smacked on occassion, and I am not advocating constant beatings, while you may disagree I feel I am a pretty well rounded person) versus the fact that not all children that are brought up with no smacking in their lives will never turn bad.

The majority of people in the world do the very best they can by their children but you would be hard pushed to find someone who does everything the same as you and has all the same beliefs regarding children as you do.

Kirsten

I started off my very first post by saying that I was assuming that this was more along the lines of a first offense than a habitual problem.

If the discipline is consistent and fair in a home, then kids know what to count on. It builds security and responsibility. I agree with the poster who would channel the lying through the traditional household discipline structure, with no TV and the like.

But to me, it borders on a trap to ask a kid if he's been snooping for Christmas gifts. I wouldn't ask that anymore than I'd ask my husband "Dose thsi dress make me look fat?"

 

[JUJU814]

I will stick up for her and also state that not everyone in the world is obviously as sensitive as you clearly are.

Some times people don't just hold onto stuff and let it turn them into emotional messes.

For example..... I was bullied a lot at school. Do I use this as an excuse for everything that goes wrong in my life. No it was at school it was a long time ago and I have moved on. Did it affect me yes, but I used it in a positive way. Some people don't let it run their life while others will let it cloud everything they do.

The majority of mothers on here, know their kids well. If the child is a sensative type of child then I suspect the punishment would have been different. As a parent, the majority of us, do what we know will have the best lesson teaching effect on said child.

Years ago I was working as a shop assistant and a mother brought her child in who had taken something from the shop, she made him return it in person and say sorry. How would you deal with that situation, that would be public humilation according to you. The boy was so upset about 1. being caught and 2. having to return it but I bet he never ever does it again.
Kirsten

That is COMPLETELY different..that is a case of making the punishment fit the crime..and was completely appropriate. The child wronged the store..it was a direct offense against the store. They stole something and were made to return it and apologize. In this case of the thread here, the offense was at home and had nothing to do with the store or the clerks. The mom was making the child apologize to the clerk for wasting her time??? That was humiliation and not the same at all as the story you are describing.

In our house there would be two consequences. One for lying, and one for the snooping. The snooping will have natural consequences..no surprises on Christmas morning. The lying will receive the consequnce that lying receives in our home, which I will keep to myself.

Lying is a deceitful and a character issue.
Snooping at Christmas is natural childhood curiosity..especially a 9 year old!

 

[surfergirl602]

Wow! One of the best things during Christmas is trying to find the gifts when we were little. We usually found a few, and were so excited with our sloothing. lol If he found them all then I think that's the mom's fault. Learn from your mistakes and hide them better next year. Going back to the store and doing what she did is out of line and over the top, in my opinion. That poor kid.

 

[luvmy3]

I'll bite. The "wrong doing" and the lying are two incidents. The punishment for lying is a a separate punishment from the "wrong doing" and not a multiplier for the "wrong doing" . For instance, there are two punishments and not just a worse punishment for having lied about the "wrong doing".

In this case, the snooping and lack of surprise is it's own punishment. We have never done the Santa myth so there has never been an overriding desire to keep things super-secret. My DD has snooped a few of her Hanukkah presents this year and I simply shrugged my shoulders and told her that it was not going to be as much fun for her when she finally gets her presents. I was right. The lying would be handled in a different way. I would take away privileges that are important to her: TV time, Computer time, play dates or outside play. I also want to say that I try not to set up my DD in the situation where she feels she needs to lie. I would never ask: "Did you snoop the presents?" when I already knew that she did because that is setting her up for failure. I don't fish for confessions because that kind of thing usually just backfires on everyone.

Thank you for answering
I do agree that the snooping and the lying are two seperate incidents. However if I ask my child a question, whether I know the answer or not, I expect them to be honest. I don't see confronting my children with something I know they did as setting them up to lie because I trust that they would be honest because of what I have tried to instill. It is a choice they make to be honest or not.
Now if my kids admitted to snoooping, then of course I wouldn't return the toys, I would take away some other priveledge and leave it at that. But like I said previously if they lie, it gets them in more trouble than the original offense and my kids know it so they most likely would be honest. I don't find that cruel, or whack a doodle or borderline abuse and I think its ridiculous to even suggest such a thing just because its not the way you would do it. There are plenty of real abuses and cruelty and this harsh discipline doesn't even come close to any of them.

 

[luvsJack]

Thank you for answering
I do agree that the snooping and the lying are two seperate incidents. However if I ask my child a question, whether I know the answer or not, I expect them to be honest. I don't see confronting my children with something I know they did as setting them up to lie because I trust that they would be honest because of what I have tried to instill. It is a choice they make to be honest or not.
Now if my kids admitted to snoooping, then of course I wouldn't return the toys, I would take away some other priveledge and leave it at that. But like I said previously if they lie, it gets them in more trouble than the original offense and my kids know it so they most likely would be honest. I don't find that cruel, or whack a doodle or borderline abuse and I think its ridiculous to even suggest such a thing just because its not the way you would do it. There are plenty of real abuses and cruelty and this harsh discipline doesn't even come close to any of them.

Why do you ask them if you already know the answer? Most anyone-adult or child-when accused will react by saying their are innocent. I have taught my children to be honest and they are; but I don't test them on it by asking a question I already know the answer to. I expect mine to be honest, and so truthfully it doesnt' occur to me to test it.

When they were very young we started the process of learning how important honesty is. We talked, we taught and we showed by example.

IF my kids had lied as this child did, I would have found an appropriate punishement for the lying (taking away something like TV or the computerr).
But in this instance it wouldn't have happened because: #1 I would have never punished for snooping for Christmas gifts (just a part of childhood, IMHO) and #2 I wouldn't have questioned him so lying would never have been an issue!

 

[NotUrsula]

As for the bolded portion, what do you do when you don't know if the child has done something wrong? (Not being snarky. I'm really looking for some advice here.) If she lies to me about things that really are of no consequence, how will I know she's not lying when she's 17 and says she went to her friend's house after school? I'm almost to the point where I don't feel that I can trust anything she says.

I lied to my parents constantly when I was a teenager. I even had to come up with elaborate schemes to maintian the lies. They had no idea I had done anything wrong, but every innocent question they asked was an opportunity for me to lie. "How was school?" (I had skipped) "What did you and Susie do?" (I had been out with my forbidden boyfriend) and so on. I really thought I had better relationships with my children, but I'm really worried she will wind up like me anyway.

Sorry, this part of the thread is hopelessly crossed; it was the other poster who seemed to really need to have the kid confess for some reason.

Obviously, if you really don't know who did the deed, then it isn't a form of baiting to ask. However, I don't think it is very effective, either, because again, confession isn't easy, and if you are obviously displeased, very few kids will put their heads on the block. I personally try to do some detective work to see if I can find evidence to give me a good idea before I ask for help in repairing/restoring/cleaning whatever it is. Half the time that gets me a blurted "I didn't do it!" at which point I have my answer.

I find it interesting that you were a drop-of-the-hat liar, too. IME, a tendency to that kind of lying can run in families; I think it can be an inherited personality trait. People-pleasers will do it just because their instinctual response is to try to guess what it is you want to hear and give you that answer, even if there is no issue of punishment. Other times it can be that the person is hyper-sensitive to perceived "tone" in the questioner's voice: if they think you are working up for a scold they will try to deflect you.

I once had a boss who was an impossible micromanager who was always reading "hidden meanings" into anything any of her employees did or said. She never would come out and accuse you of anything, but I learned really fast that if she started a conversation with the words, "I'm curious ..." that I was about to suffer, because she was probing for evidence to back up whatever conspiracy theory she was adhering to at the moment. No matter what I said in response, I knew that she would manage to use it against me somehow. I'm not accusing you of being such a person, but kids can get odd ideas in their heads sometimes about the lengths to which parents might go to punish, and if they are afraid of something severe, they may get defensive for no good reason.

I have known some compulsive liars in my time. One in particular stands out, as she created a hugely complicated biographical backstory for herself that was completely untrue, and anytime anyone would get close to the truth she would find some crime to accuse that person of in order to deflect their attention. (Real crime; she used to call the police and give anonymous tips.) She was a really extreme case, but I think that most people who lie about just anything for no reason do it because they think that others find them dull and forgettable, and they think that people will pay more attention to them if they somehow become more interesting, so they embroider even the mundane.

I know it's frustrating. When DS does it he's easy to read, so my usual response is to make fun of him a bit. I know it hurts, but at his age, embarassment is the best deterrent, so if I imply that he is a laughably bad liar, he will think twice before doing it again.

 

[tzolkin]

I find it interesting that you were a drop-of-the-hat liar, too. IME, a tendency to that kind of lying can run in families; I think it can be an inherited personality trait. People-pleasers will do it just because their instinctual response is to try to guess what it is you want to hear and give you that answer, even if there is no issue of punishment. Other times it can be that the person is hyper-sensitive to perceived "tone" in the questioner's voice: if they think you are working up for a scold they will try to deflect you.

Funny... my mom just said the same thing to me the other day when we were discussing this issue. Except she was refering the biological father and not me as the one DD may have inherited it from.

I'm actually never lie anymore, so perhaps my mom forgot. I had my oldest child when I was 17 and that really changed my relationship with my parents. I can't think of anything I've lied about in the last 10+ years, so perhaps it was a teen phase.


I know I lied because my parents would never allow me to do anything. I assumed they weren't going to let me do something so I made up something else that I knew was permitted. I was also "forbidden" to see a boyfriend and thus started skipping school and lying like crazy to see him. There was no discussion of things and often I wasn't presented with any logical reason why, so I assumed they didn't have any valid reason for me to not do something other than that they said so. This is why I wanted to have a more open and honest relationship with my kids. But this really doesn't seem to have anything to do with why my DD lies.

I think the second part of your statement may also have something to do with the issue with my DD. I really try to watch my tone with DD because she is very sensitive. She may perceive that my casually asking her about something means that I'm upset with her, so she automatically starts getting defensive. It's just that there's no logic to her responses-- "My hair's not cut. That's just how it naturally is" She's very intelligent and I just don't understand the denial. I at least would have come up with something plausible if I was going to lie. I guess it's better that she hasn't figured that out.

The two little ones are so much easier right now.

 

[bumbershoot]

You people that don't allow a little snooping are taking ALL the fun out of Christmas for a kid! My brother and I had the most fun every year trying to figure out where the gifts were and what they were and who they were for.

I found some presents once by mistake, and it was ROTTEN. We had a tiny house and a station wagon...not much space for hiding presents, and one time I ran across them. From then on I purposely avoided that area, and disliked going into that cabinet other times of the year b/c I felt so sad.

So snooping is NOT a universally fun thing.

Some of us have been VICTIMS of this type of parental "discipline" personally and/or watched close friends receive this type of "parenting." It teaches kids that the world is unsafe, unfair and unjust. That you can't count on anything. That anything you have can be taken from you on the WHIM of an adult. It teaches kids fear.

Maybe you're responding to things I missed. But if you're responding to the OP's parent-friend's situation...there's nothing given to the kid, it hasn't been taken away. And breaking rules causing a reaction isn't a whim. You break rules, you face consequences. It's not a whim.

A whim would be having presents taken away and donated 6 months after xmas...that's the sort of thing hubby's mom might have done. It's quite different from just not getting what you snooped and saw.

I am NOT a punitive parent at all, I'm an explaining parent...and DS is 5 and this year I've been letting him know that we don't go looking around for things at this time of year. He's actually doing it with me...he and hubby hid my present in DS's closet, and DS won't even let me in his room right now! He doesn't know I know, but he definitely knows he doesn't want me to snoop around! So this is the foundation for "no snoopping around for presents", and the rule will become more clear as he goes into 6 and older...and if he looks around for presents at 9 he will *absolutely* know what the rule was that he broke, and what the consequences are.



In our house, lying is a tricky one. DH's parents over-punished and REFUSED to believe DH when he told the truth, and DH remembers the very moment that he became "the liar of the family". Because he was "the liar", his siblings got away with huge lies and they were never suspected. Meanwhile, hubby would lie about anything and everything, even though he knew he would get caught, b/c there was always the possibility he wouldn't and he'd get away with whatever petty offense he had lied about.

 

[luvmy3]

Why do you ask them if you already know the answer? Most anyone-adult or child-when accused will react by saying their are innocent. I have taught my children to be honest and they are; but I don't test them on it by asking a question I already know the answer to. I expect mine to be honest, and so truthfully it doesnt' occur to me to test it.

When they were very young we started the process of learning how important honesty is. We talked, we taught and we showed by example.

IF my kids had lied as this child did, I would have found an appropriate punishement for the lying (taking away something like TV or the computerr).
But in this instance it wouldn't have happened because: #1 I would have never punished for snooping for Christmas gifts (just a part of childhood, IMHO) and #2 I wouldn't have questioned him so lying would never have been an issue!

Well, I guess thats just what I do, I have 3 kids and I guess my getting to the bottom of things requires me to ask questions to confirm what I'm pretty sure I already know. If I had witnessed something right before my eyes I wouldn't ask. I don't think of confronting my child about what he/she did as a test but more of a confirmation of a pretty good suspicion. I'm usually right and so me knowing the answer still doesn't change the fact that I expect my child to be honest.

But obviously we are different. I would punish for snooping because there would have been rules in place to keep my kids out of where the gifts were hidden. I see using the excuse *snooping is a Christmas rite of passage* as way to justify my child's bad behavior. I look at the big picture, the defiance of the rule, not just the snooping. I expect my kids to act a certain way, all the time, not just some of the time when its convenient for me and them. IMO that not following through is just inconsistent disipline practice and over time being inconsistent can lead to raising little snowflakes because they learn how to *work the system*. Its just the philosophy we have for our kids. I learned with my dd to establish rules and make sure I follow them because there was a time when she was a little snowflurry because I would give in and give empty threats, and I had to nip that in the bud. Dh and I are strict in the fact that we only ask that our kids just follow the rules we have. They aren't abnormal rules, we don't run a bootcamp, in fact we are quite liberal, my kids get away with plenty but there are fundamental rules of our household that we feel are punishable offenses, lying being the big one and the outright doing something that you were told not to do (like the snooping). The snooping would have just gotten video games, or TV taken away for my kids, but the lying would have been addressed more harshly. I would have no problem taking away the priveledge of getting the gifts that my child lied about not seeing. I would not have made my child go with me, and I don't believe the clerk had anything to do with the offense so she shouldn't have been involved. I don't see what that mom did was cruel, just unneccessary to teach her child a lesson about what happens when you are dishonest.

Luckily I have good kids (and I swear I'm not just saying that ) I like to think that dh and I are doing a good job, and doing the right thing for our kids so that they grow up to be respectful adults. I put a high importance on discipline because I see too many parents that don't and I see how their kids are. I do not want my kids ending up like that. I definitely respect parents who aren't afraid to use stern discipline, and I don't expect everyone to have the same methods, but if you don't have any, you won't be getting any respect from me. (Not you personally, just a general opinion).

 

[Chelley00]

And exactly what is he supposed to say ? "Yeah mom, that still kinda hurts." OF COURSE he's going to tell you it is no big deal. Any loving son would and I have no doubt that he loves you.

If he was still traumatized, he'd tell me. He knows better than to lie to me. That's what this thread was about. Teaching children that lying was wrong. Trust me. If he's mad at me, he tells me. Quickly and firmly. He's not afraid to express himself.

Obviously, no one in this thread will change their mind and neither will I, so I'm going to unsubscribe. I don't feel the need to try and justify myself when people make assumptions about me being cruel, over the top, whacky, psycho and some of the other things that other people have said. I'm going to spend the rest of the weekend with my happy, well adjusted, and apparently abused family rather than sit and read people calling me a tyrant parent.

Thanks to those who have PMd support

 

[Schmeck]

Some of us have been VICTIMS of this type of parental "discipline" personally and/or watched close friends receive this type of "parenting." It teaches kids that the world is unsafe, unfair and unjust. That you can't count on anything. That anything you have can be taken from you on the WHIM of an adult. It teaches kids fear.

Do kids change their behavior (well, at least in front of parents)? Sure. Is it for ANY of the right reasons? No.

I thought it was horrible then, and I think it's worse now that I'm an adult and I KNOW there are better ways to treat children (oh, without turning them into "snowflakes" or lawbreakers.)

In fact, once you start treating a child this way, you make them angry. Keep it up, and you make them angry for the rest of their lives.

The only friend I have whose child has landed in jail had this kind of parenting, where one parent was quick to overreact. Lowering the hammer on this kid did not work....it threw gasoline on the fire.

Well, first, yes, life is unfair. We could bubble wrap kids so this gets ignored until they they are considered 'adults' and then toss them to the lions, but how does that help them?

Treating a child 'this way' - teaching them that lying and invading others' personal space is wrong, and that theses are the consequences of your actions - can be properly balanced with praise for doing things right.

The only kids I've had trouble with in my program are the ones who think it's OK to lie, cheat, and steal at school because it was not dealt with at home, it was allowed to slide, or the parents were afraid of 'public humiliation'. We're raising a generation of kids who feel so entitled to everything that they can't think beyond their next personal need.

Their frail little egos aren't really that fragile, you know. They need to earn the respect and praise - not get it just because they woke up this morning...

 

[mjkacmom]

But obviously we are different. I would punish for snooping because there would have been rules in place to keep my kids out of where the gifts were hidden. I see using the excuse *snooping is a Christmas rite of passage* as way to justify my child's bad behavior. I look at the big picture, the defiance of the rule, not just the snooping. ).

Well, we don't have a no snooping rule. There is no where in the home the children aren't allowed (with the exception maybe of dd13's 3rd floor suite - it's just not worth the drama! ). They're allowed in my bedroom, they're allowed in every closet... They're even allowed (but need to ask permission) in my parents' basement (where we keep the gifts) - the only reason they go down there is for soda, which they need to ask permission to have.

We have a big family and a small house - very little privacy. One rule I have is you don't enter our bedroom unless you knock and are invited in (old house - no locks on the doors). Not once has a child opened the door uninvited.

 

[luvsJack]

Well, I guess thats just what I do, I have 3 kids and I guess my getting to the bottom of things requires me to ask questions to confirm what I'm pretty sure I already know. If I had witnessed something right before my eyes I wouldn't ask. I don't think of confronting my child about what he/she did as a test but more of a confirmation of a pretty good suspicion. I'm usually right and so me knowing the answer still doesn't change the fact that I expect my child to be honest.

But obviously we are different. I would punish for snooping because there would have been rules in place to keep my kids out of where the gifts were hidden. I see using the excuse *snooping is a Christmas rite of passage* as way to justify my child's bad behavior. I look at the big picture, the defiance of the rule, not just the snooping. I expect my kids to act a certain way, all the time, not just some of the time when its convenient for me and them. IMO that not following through is just inconsistent disipline practice and over time being inconsistent can lead to raising little snowflakes because they learn how to *work the system*. Its just the philosophy we have for our kids. I learned with my dd to establish rules and make sure I follow them because there was a time when she was a little snowflurry because I would give in and give empty threats, and I had to nip that in the bud. Dh and I are strict in the fact that we only ask that our kids just follow the rules we have. They aren't abnormal rules, we don't run a bootcamp, in fact we are quite liberal, my kids get away with plenty but there are fundamental rules of our household that we feel are punishable offenses, lying being the big one and the outright doing something that you were told not to do (like the snooping). The snooping would have just gotten video games, or TV taken away for my kids, but the lying would have been addressed more harshly.

Luckily I have good kids (and I swear I'm not just saying that ) I like to think that dh and I are doing a good job, and doing the right thing for our kids so that they grow up to be respectful adults. I put a high importance on discipline because I see too many parents that don't and I see how their kids are. I do not want my kids ending up like that. I definitely respect parents who aren't afraid to use stern discipline, and I don't expect everyone to have the same methods, but if you don't have any, you won't be getting any respect from me. (Not you personally, just a general opinion).

I don't think being a bit more laid back necessarily means not having discipline methods nor does it mean raising a "snowflake" (although, I hate that term and what it means on the dis. After all, all children are special and each one is different.).

Like I said before, some of my fondest memories of my brother are of our snooping around for presents at Christmas. Those memories are more precious than the memory of whatever the Christmas gift was! Once the magic of Santa is not there, snooping is the best part !

Saying its a normal part of childhood is not justifying bad behavior in my home because there is no such rule.

I am not against stern discipline, I am not even against spanking a child. I am against things that break their spirit or degrade a child.

There are some rules in our home that are non-negotiable and that the kids just always knew they don't break. Lying and stealing are two of those rules. I am not saying I don't have the rule, its just never been something we had to have so much drama about. They didn't lie. And my sons are grown and still don't lie.