I witnessed something very disturbing today (long)

[Aisling]

I was spanked and I have never hit anyone - classmate, stranger or my children. I don't think you should speak in such absolutes.

I was also spanked as a child, and wacked with a belt across my behind on a few occasions. I never felt abused, and I loved my dad very much even though he was a spanker, but the FEAR of it coming was horrendous. I knew in my heart way back then that I'd never spank my children, and I never did. I always remained calm when they were misbehaving, and found other ways of disciplining them. My DH spanked my son once, and I told him he'd better NEVER do that again. And he didn't. My kids turned out fine, and I turned out fine.

 

[poohandwendy]

I think what you witnessed was bad parenting, but I am not sure it was abuse.

Hopefully, it was reflective of a bad day and not the prevailing dynamics of that family. Sad, though.

(haven't read all of the thread, but I can imagine the debate...btdt)

 

[kinntj]

How about talking about the obvious. Why wasn't the 2 year old given something to do. Did the family really expect the 2 year old to just sit there? How about talking with the child, reading a book to her, coloring, etc.?

This is what I was thinking. Couldn't the parents have read something to her? I sometimes even take a Goodhousekeeping magazine and start reading...at least it's something to keep the child entertained. Sometimes I would even take the child out of the office and let the front desk know, just to keep her entertained and just walk with her. Take the child and tickle her and play with her or is it usually too much to ask a parent to do.
Now that my kids are older, they go with a notebook and pen or a Leapster.

The dad has terrible parenting skills. Spanking should be done to fit a "crime". They should have taken her mind off of the purse to stop her whimpering. It's called distraction people. Sigh.

I'm just so sickened by what the OP has witnessed.

 

[tmarquez]

...she starts yelling, "No daddy, no daddy, please don't daddy".

My heart was breaking, racing & in my throat all at the same time as I watched this father take his 2 1/2 year old into the hallway.

Ok I do not know these people so I don't know their situation...but...

As the mom of a very clever little girl myself, this isn't shocking. My DD and ALL of her friends have been known to say things like this at times. They know the reaction it can cause...that's why they do it.

 

[roliepolieoliefan]

You don't know what happened prior to them getting to the doctors office. She could have been misbehaving the whole day and that was the final straw.

I don't like what the dad did in public either , but when my DS was little and I would take him out of places he didn't want to leave when he was misbehaving, he would yell loud, no MOM , please don't beat me again.

Little poophead, I never beat him. He knew those words would get other peoples attention and I would stop.

its hard to judge just from 30 minutes in a doctors office.

 

[Mkaz]

I knew that came out wrong. Just aloud. Didn't mean to offend.

You didn't offend. Sorry I came off that way with my reply. I understand that you meant that this approach would not work on your kids. I just wanted to point out that I really did feel bad about leaving the cart. I am sure they weren't happy with me.

 

[poohandwendy]

You don't know what happened prior to them getting to the doctors office. She could have been misbehaving the whole day and that was the final straw.

I don't like what the dad did in public either , but when my DS was little and I would take him out of places he didn't want to leave when he was misbehaving, he would yell loud, no MOM , please don't beat me again.

Little poophead, I never beat him. He knew those words would get other peoples attention and I would stop.

its hard to judge just from 30 minutes in a doctors office.

Exactly. My youngest DD had a knack for doing the same thing. I'll never forget being at an Eat n Park restaurant where she was warned if she didn't behave we would be going to go to the car for a time out. Finally, picked her up and was carrying her out, she is screaming "Please don't beat me" in the most pathetic voice...

She's my little drama queen. (we are putting that talent to good use now, she is in a local acting program. I am told she is a 'natural'- yeah, no kidding)

 

[momrek06]

To all DIS Moms (and Dads) with DAUGHTERS, as I have only sons...I asked this a while ago (on this thread) and will ask it again....WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT PLAYING IN THE MOM'S PURSE???

I have 3 sisters (close in age) and the 4 of us were so close to my Mom, (still are to this very day) and I can remember Mom laying on the living room couch after a long day with 5 children and the 4 girls would ask if we could play in her purse....SHE HAD NO PROBLEM.....we played, cleaned, sorted, organized, & rearranged everything in her purse while she watched and dozed. We loved playing in Mom's purse...as we got older and realized MONEY was also kept in this purse...lol...we ALWAYS wanted to clean her purse. No lie, we could easily come up with $10.00 (mostly in loose change) whenever we "cleaned" Mom's purse!!! :

So again I ask WHY would this Mom have any issues with Lydia playing in her purse IF at all cost it kept her busy AND quiet?

Then this thread never would have come to be!!!!!

 

[meandtheguys2]

To all DIS Moms (and Dads) with DAUGHTERS, as I have only sons...I asked this a while ago (on this thread) and will ask it again....WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT PLAYING IN THE MOM'S PURSE???

I have 3 sisters (close in age) and the 4 of us were so close to my Mom, (still are to this very day) and I can remember Mom laying on the living room couch after a long day with 5 children and the 4 girls would ask if we could play in her purse....SHE HAD NO PROBLEM.....we played, cleaned, sorted, organized, & rearranged everything in her purse while she watched and dozed. We loved playing in Mom's purse...as we got older and realized MONEY was also kept in this purse...lol...we ALWAYS wanted to clean her purse. No lie, we could easily come up with $10.00 (mostly in loose change) whenever we "cleaned" Mom's purse!!! :

So again I ask WHY would this Mom have any issues with Lydia playing in her purse IF at all cost it kept her busy AND quiet?

Then this thread never would have come to be!!!!!

Maybe the mom had meds, or bills, or private stuff she didn't want all over the ofc. My kids didn't play with my purse. I keep too many things in there that I need. (As well as meds, including an epipen.) there isn't anything wrong with a mom having some privacy in life.

There is nothing wrong with saying "no" to a child. No one gets everything they want in life. And it doesn't hurt them.

 

[momrek06]

Maybe the mom had meds, or bills, or private stuff she didn't want all over the ofc. My kids didn't play with my purse. I keep too many things in there that I need. (As well as meds, including an epipen.) there isn't anything wrong with a mom having some privacy in life.

But Lydia was not running off somewhere with the purse..Mom was going to be sitting right next to her! I completely understand needing privacy but we are talking about a 2yo!!! What would Mom need to keep private from a 2 yo??? I am not saying that when they get home, Lydia's new toy is the Mom's purse BUT in times like this when looking/playing in the purse will keep Lydia busy AND quiet..I still see NO HARM in it.

 

[smartestnumber5]

ITA. If she knew she was going to be spanked (hardly child abuse!) if she continued whimpering when she was told to stop, then she should have stopped.

My DH's mother was the type to say "if you keep crying I'm going to give you something to cry about" and she would do just that. He grew up to be a wonderful man. Spanking is NOT "child abuse."

If more parents believed in "spare the rod, spoil the child" I think there would be less "problem children" in the world today. Same goes for in schools. Teachers and principals should still be able to spank students when necessary. Kids today know that teachers/principals "can't touch them" and so many parents are of the "time out" mindset so kids know they can get away with a whole heck of a lot more than they used to. Sad.

Yeah, and while we're out it we should go back to the days of men hitting their wives. We had way fewer female criminals in those days, plus many fewer failed marriages and men were much happier in their relationships; so it must have been the beatings (ah, no I should say "spankings") from their husbands that prevented them to turning to crime.

Now a days women figure they can get away with anything because there are actually laws protecting them from assault.

(Seriously though, I cannot for the life of me understand why actions that would clearly be considered assault and result in jail time when applied to a woman, can be considered defensible or at least "not abuse" when applied to a child.

Heck, if I did that to my dog in public, I would probably get more outrage than people get doing it to their toddlers.)

 

[MELSMICE]

You don't know what happened prior to them getting to the doctors office. She could have been misbehaving the whole day and that was the final straw.

Maybe, but it was only 8:45 a.m. so the day wasn't too "old".

I still stand by my opinion that regardless of behavior prior to or at any time, there is no need to hit. JMO.

 

[poohandwendy]

To all DIS Moms (and Dads) with DAUGHTERS, as I have only sons...I asked this a while ago (on this thread) and will ask it again....WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ABOUT PLAYING IN THE MOM'S PURSE???

I have 3 sisters (close in age) and the 4 of us were so close to my Mom, (still are to this very day) and I can remember Mom laying on the living room couch after a long day with 5 children and the 4 girls would ask if we could play in her purse....SHE HAD NO PROBLEM.....we played, cleaned, sorted, organized, & rearranged everything in her purse while she watched and dozed. We loved playing in Mom's purse...as we got older and realized MONEY was also kept in this purse...lol...we ALWAYS wanted to clean her purse. No lie, we could easily come up with $10.00 (mostly in loose change) whenever we "cleaned" Mom's purse!!! :

So again I ask WHY would this Mom have any issues with Lydia playing in her purse IF at all cost it kept her busy AND quiet?

Then this thread never would have come to be!!!!!

Well, when it comes down to it, you could argue "what's the big deal with any boundary a parent has for their kids?'. This may not have been a 'no-no' to you, but apparently it was to this family. Maybe she has prescription medicine in there, maybe extremely important papers...who knows? Maybe she just flat out does not want her purse to be a play area. Every parent has the right to have boundaries, period.

(not even talking about the discipline involved, only the idea of whether or not it's appropriate that they didn't allow her to play in moms purse)

 

[poohandwendy]

(Seriously though, I cannot for the life of me understand why actions that would clearly be considered assault and result in jail time when applied to a woman, can be considered defensible or at least "not abuse" when applied to a child.

The problem with that argument is that there are many things parents are responsible for when it comes to their children but not allowed to do to another adult. Like, I can't restrain another adult in a car seat. Or, I can't put another adult in 'time out'. I can't make medical decisions for another adult. I can't force another adult to come with me, if they don't want to. I can't make an adult get a vaccination.

For your argument to hold water, one has to assume that children are equal to adults when it comes to discipline. They aren't. Because parents are responsible for the upbringing of children, they also are in charge of them. Adults are not in charge of or responsible for other adults. Apples and oranges.

 

[Belle1962]

In States that allow corporal punishment there are clearly defined "strike zones" and "force amounts" that are considered within the "boundaries" set by the law.

That being said--you were in a MANDATED REPORTER's office. Where was the office staff? If they saw/heard anything and did not fel obligated to report it...then maybe it was not as bad/illegall as you think.

 

[smartestnumber5]

The problem with that argument is that there are many things parents are responsible for when it comes to their children but not allowed to do to another adult. Like, I can't restrain another adult in a car seat. Or, I can't put another adult in 'time out'. I can't make medical decisions for another adult. I can't force another adult to come with me, if they don't want to. I can't make an adult get a vaccination.

For your argument to hold water, one has to assume that children are equal to adults when it comes to discipline. They aren't. Because parents are responsible for the upbringing of children, they also are in charge of them. Adults are not in charge of or responsible for other adults. Apples and oranges.

But there are times when adults are in charge of and responsible for other adults. Military officers, for instance, have a lot of authority over soldiers. They can force soldiers to march to their deaths, force them to run for miles, etc. But (as far as I know) they cannot hit or smack a soldier as a consequence for not following orders. Prison wardens have even more authority still. They can give them a time out. They can restrain a prisoner in a car, they can make a prisoner come with them against the prisoner's will. I would say that in most other ways, prisoners are pretty similar to children in terms of discipline--they must do what they are told. Yet we still draw the line at assault--what the father did to the toddler would be illegal and could result in jail time if a warden did it to a prisoner.

Even in more usual situations, it is often the case that some adults discipline others. Bosses do discipline their employees--demerits, bad reviews. Professors do discipline college students--throwing them out of class, telling them they will not be allowed to speak that way in class, flunking them. I don't expect that discipline of children must be exactly the same as discipline of adults. But I do think that if a certain method of discipline of adults is so obviously problematic that it is made illegal, then there better be a good explanation of why it is okay to use that method on a child.

So I'd like to know, what exactly makes it wrong to discipline adults with violence and how does that wrong not apply to disciplining children with violence?

 

[bumbershoot]

Like, I can't restrain another adult in a car seat.

I can't make medical decisions for another adult.

Hmm. No one gets in my car and doesn't put on a seatbelt. I won't go anywhere. As an adult people do have the choice to continue on the journey by putting on the seatbelt, or leaving the car, but it's still possibly forcing someone into a seatbelt when they might not want to.

And you can make medical decisions for an adult, they just have to not be capable of making those decisions for themselves. Ask my DH, whose family got that opportunity last year with his dad...



Children are equal to adults as humans. And they should be treated as humans. Humanely.

when my DS was little and I would take him out of places he didn't want to leave when he was misbehaving, he would yell loud, no MOM , please don't beat me again.

Little poophead, I never beat him. He knew those words would get other peoples attention and I would stop.

A year ago I would have said "yeah, right" to all those types of responses, but now I have a 3 year old who says the most astonishing things when I'm simply carrying him away from something he shouldn't be in (and we have very lax rules...if I can't defend a "no" even in my own head, it doesn't usually stay a "no"..."because I said so" doesn't cut it for me).

However, when he does that sort of thing, I am VERY vocal in responding to him, calmly, and giggling joyously (not scarily) with him about what he's just said, and how silly he is...

 

[basas]

My brother has never spanked either of his children, but when my niece is bad he'll pick her up and set her on the 'naughty step.' (she's almost three) She too will cry and say, "No Daddy!! No!!!!" Five minutes later she's back to smiling and laughing.


No one knows what went on the rest of the day that led up to the spanking. I've read on the DIS numerous times how people shouldn't judge others parenting based on a moment they witness. I'm not defending the man's actions, but no one really knows the whole story.

Agreed

 

[poohandwendy]

Children are equal to adults as humans. And they should be treated as humans. Humanely.

You have decided that spanking is inhumane. Your opinion. The law has decided differently. Fortunately, the law recognizes parents as the best people to decide what is right for their children and only intervene in extreme cases when parents are found to have abused or neglected their children. You may feel spanking is abuse, fortunately you benefit from the lack of govt involvement in parenting decisions and can make that choice for your children.

 

[3jsmommy]

But there are times when adults are in charge of and responsible for other adults. Military officers, for instance, have a lot of authority over soldiers. They can force soldiers to march to their deaths, force them to run for miles, etc. But (as far as I know) they cannot hit or smack a soldier as a consequence for not following orders. Prison wardens have even more authority still. They can give them a time out. They can restrain a prisoner in a car, they can make a prisoner come with them against the prisoner's will. I would say that in most other ways, prisoners are pretty similar to children in terms of discipline--they must do what they are told. Yet we still draw the line at assault--what the father did to the toddler would be illegal and could result in jail time if a warden did it to a prisoner.

Even in more usual situations, it is often the case that some adults discipline others. Bosses do discipline their employees--demerits, bad reviews. Professors do discipline college students--throwing them out of class, telling them they will not be allowed to speak that way in class, flunking them. I don't expect that discipline of children must be exactly the same as discipline of adults. But I do think that if a certain method of discipline of adults is so obviously problematic that it is made illegal, then there better be a good explanation of why it is okay to use that method on a child.

So I'd like to know, what exactly makes it wrong to discipline adults with violence and how does that wrong not apply to disciplining children with violence?

I totally understand this viewpoint as I often wonder the same thing, and like you said before if this had been a post about dragging a puppy around & hitting it there would have been 0 posters on here defending the owner, No one would be saying things like, maybe the puppy was misbehaving all day...there would have been outrage & all of the "furbaby" advocates would be seen as heros & not child or (puppy ) spoilers!!