I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[amykissangel]

But I got over it, accepted my life and the lot God had chosen for me. Yep, that person was me.

Jeez, make me break out the tissues at work ...that's one of the most inspirational stories I've heard...have to share it with my cousin

 

[cardaway]

I'm lost on the first paragraph and saddened by the second. The answer to hatred is not more hatred, it's opposition to hatred. How quickly we lose the lessons of history's great civil rights leaders.

If I was looking to be a leader, or maybe a mod at this site, then I certainly would agree with you. I would also agree with you if I thought there was any real discussion or debate happening.

There is not. Only a few calling people liars or comparing them to pedophiles, abusing their internet bravery to the extent the mods will allow.

Of course all this could change if somebody new was to come along. In there past there has been plenty of people who discussed discernment, Joe, and JJ's side without resorting to the things people have called them on here.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Pssssttt.... click on the Start menu on your desktop, then select Programs, then Accessories, then Calculator. My best friend.

LOL!

And much like your quote and joestv's friend, I also know someone who was pretty darn devoutly religious. Very sanctimonious and holier than thou, a church goer, very, VERY judgemental about homosexuals. In fact, he was the first person to condemn homosexuals to hell, and would use every derogatory term in reference to them or directly AT them for that matter.

Then, through much soul searching and prayer, came out of the closet. It was a painful experience for him and not one that he would ever want to repeat. The self hatred was tremendous until that coming out period.

But I got over it, accepted my life and the lot God had chosen for me. Yep, that person was me.

RIck, I you, I really really do. I am so thankful to have you as a friend. Thank you so much for all of your insight. You have helped me so much, in ways you don't even know.

 

[goofy4tink]

Pssssttt.... click on the Start menu on your desktop, then select Programs, then Accessories, then Calculator. My best friend.

LOL!

And much like your quote and joestv's friend, I also know someone who was pretty darn devoutly religious. Very sanctimonious and holier than thou, a church goer, very, VERY judgemental about homosexuals. In fact, he was the first person to condemn homosexuals to hell, and would use every derogatory term in reference to them or directly AT them for that matter.

Then, through much soul searching and prayer, came out of the closet. It was a painful experience for him and not one that he would ever want to repeat. The self hatred was tremendous until that coming out period.

But I got over it, accepted my life and the lot God had chosen for me. Yep, that person was me.

I'm so sorry you had such a tough go of it Rick...but obviously, it has made you the person you are. Trial by fire, you are an inspiration having 'walked the walk'. I hope that, if it's your wish, you have found a welcoming church.

 

[RickinNYC]

Trust me guys, my situation was and is not unique whatsoever. I've met many, many women and men in the same boat. Nothing to cry over at all.

Cry for those people who have chosen to live a life of lies simply because it fits the "norm" that has been pounded and pounded and pounded into their heads. Cry for those men and women who are married to those people because their love is a lie. Cry for those people who have committed suicide for fear that their secret is discovered. Cry for those who are so filled with intense self hatred that they can't live lives of happiness and love.

My story isn't much different than millions of others out there. When I was younger I was the first to call someone a name, the first to be disgusted by gay people, the first to use the Bible as proof of their immorality. But all of that lead to hate, which lead to self hatred, which led to a suicide attempt.

Perhaps this would explain why I'm so adamantly against people like Discernment and a few others who butcher the word of God, the very same God that I love and worship, to promote their own agendas of hate and intolerance. Those people are the ones who should cover their faces in shame.

I'll hold my partner of 15+ years and tell him I love him tonight and every night. And I'll take his hand and be happy. And I'll hold my head up with pride and dignity now, thanks.

Discernment, I'll pray for you and others like you.

 

[Muziqal]

You are free to choose those tactics, but be careful of how you use them and who you decide to throw back at. You've thrown back at someone who agrees with your basic position.

Why did I ask you what you meant by the term "sonny"? Because (1) it was meant to be derrogatory and (2) it was somewhat sexist. Again, be careful who you're throwing at. When throwing ick, be accurate.

I threw ick only when you called me a hypocrite and highlighted my post around the use of the word 'zealot'. I disagreed with your interpretation as your highlight of my text didn't make sense to me.

I love that you agree with my basic position, but it doesn't mean I won't defend myself when it looks like I'm being called a zealot.

But I digress, as we both know now what you meant. Rise above...as you say. Rise above.

And sonny is hardly a derogatory term when compared to the hate mongering going on in this thread, agreed? But, I apologize if it made you feel that way. Perhaps I jumped the gun.

 

[NYBlue1]

error double posted

 

[NYBlue1]

I use to get so upset by people like the OP, but no more,I actually feel quite bad for them, somewhere in these peoples lives they experienced some horrific experence that has made them hate gays. Molested by a family member?Stranger?Clergy? Abusive alcoholic parent? Or its something..maybe you yourself are gay but fight it with every fiber of your being. Its something allright,people with the need to scream how much they hate gays always have a big old skeleton in the closet.(no pun intended )

If they dont fit that catagory than they fit this one, the born again crowd,you lived your life like a devient,substance abuse,perverse sexual lifestyle,and thats not a gay one,maybe a thief or just general all around creep. Could do nothing but turn to God,than like most of their pathetic life they make a mockery of his Love by denouncing the only thing that is socially exceptable to denounce when it comes to segments of the population. Gays, hey your in good company though,the president of the United States is just like you!

Homosexuals are the last segment of the population you can get away with kicking in the pants with little or no consequence. Like all the other segments the day will come that you will not be able to use them as a scapegoat to your pathetic mess of a life. Stop worrying about gays,worry about yourself if you fit this description. Jesus will come back one day to judge,and your in for a rude awakening.

You see normal people with normal enriched lives dont worry about gays or care what they are doing,see the many happy people posting to this thread. I suggest psycological help to get past the obsession of gay bashing, you all need it,its not gays your despise, its yourself! God Bless

 

[joestv]

Pssssttt.... click on the Start menu on your desktop, then select Programs, then Accessories, then Calculator. My best friend.

LOL!

And much like your quote and joestv's friend, I also know someone who was pretty darn devoutly religious. Very sanctimonious and holier than thou, a church goer, very, VERY judgemental about homosexuals. In fact, he was the first person to condemn homosexuals to hell, and would use every derogatory term in reference to them or directly AT them for that matter.

Then, through much soul searching and prayer, came out of the closet. It was a painful experience for him and not one that he would ever want to repeat. The self hatred was tremendous until that coming out period.

But I got over it, accepted my life and the lot God had chosen for me. Yep, that person was me.

This person was my friend until I decided to be honest with myself and others and make myself happy.

Let's just say it wasn't pretty. He tried for months to help me "change" for "the sake of my soul" , and harassed me until I just couldn't take it anymore. He just couldn't get over it and decided that he could be known as a friend of a "devient". I wish I did half of what people think I do

 

[goofygirl]

This whole discussion brings this prayer to mind. Its found in the Book of Common Prayer pg. 833, the liturgy book used in the Episcopal Church:


A Prayer attributed to St. Francis
Lord, make us instruments of your peace. Where there is hatred, let us sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is *******, union; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy. Grant that we may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love. For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.

 

[DisneyDotty]

I'll hold my partner of 15+ years and tell him I love him tonight and every night. And I'll take his hand and be happy. And I'll hold my head up with pride and dignity now, thanks.

And that's all that really matters. And this is why I will continue to fight the good fight to end hateful, pointless discriminatory practices against people.
Bless you, Rick.

 

[DznyFan]

Another Episcopalian here! I just spent what seemed like hours reading through this thread.
The reason I joined the Episcopal Church several years ago is because of it's open-mindedness, and the fact that it is one of the FEW denominations that doesn't tell you what you should do and how you should live your life. I don't want to spend my time in church being yelled at, berated, and lectured. There are a LOT of churches in the part of the country that I live in that believe completely that one's ticket to Heaven is granted in how much you give to the church ($$), one's 'works' (what have you DONE for the church?? How many volunteer hours have you worked?? Who have you saved??); and one's total and complete lack of what is 'defined' as sin. It seems as though many [Christian] denominations are overlooking that Jesus died for our sins. If sin is the deciding factor, then in many church's eyes, I'm not going to Heaven. I use alcohol, I have smoked, I cuss, I wear pants, I dance, I eat pork, I have lived 'in sin' (lived with man, not married) - you get the picture.

I feel much less comfortable associating with a church who wants to make my mind up for me, so therefore, I'm an Episcopalian. I'm not criticizing other denominations, I just don't agree with their views. In many [other denominations] Christian's eyes, we Episcopalians are sinners because of our tolerance, and the fact that we firmly believe in the LOVE of Christ.
In addition, I've met many people who call themselves Christians who have been some of the most intolerant, unloving, judgemental, and hypocritical folks I've known.

As an Episcopalian (and Republican), I have no problem with the new PB. I have no problem with homosexuality. Do I practice it or agree with it? No, and I tolerate it. I don't feel as though a gay is 'nutz' or is going to burn for eternity for their lifestyle choice. I have had friends and aquaintances throughout my life who are gay. My best friend from High School. I do not love them any differently than my straight friends. They are good people. Some of them are Christians. Some of them are Republicans. One very good friend is both. (Gasp!!)
I'm not going to sit here and try to have an intellectual or theological debate; but just wanted to share my thoughts and views after having read this heated thread.

And Rick - good for you!!

 

[bananiem]

I just don't get it. Why does anyone CARE how people live their lives as long as they aren't doing anything illegal or harming anyone else? Some heterosexuals like to be spanked while having sex. It's not my thing, but as long as they're happy and not hurting anyone else, why would I care?
I'm much more concerned with whether people are happy then why they are. I don't care so much what makes them happy, just that they are.

 

[discernment]

One of the largest gay conversion therapy groups in the world, Exodus International, was founded by two men, both self identified as "ex-gay", married to women, devoutly Christian leaders in their community. They were the trailblazers in the movement, speaking at engagements coast to coast. What folks want you to forget is the punch line.

They have since left their wives and families. Why? Because they fell in loved WITH EACH OTHER and have since abandoned Exodus.

And frankly, the American Medical Association has stated “there is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one’s sexual orientation.” The AMA “does not recommend aversion therapy for gay men and lesbians.” THE AMA folks. I didn't make that up.

And the American Psychological Association has said that “groups who try to change the sexual orientation of people through so-called conversion therapy are misguided and run the risk of causing a great deal of psychological harm to those they say they are trying to help.” They also make it very, very clear that “gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so.”

But, even with two quotes from two highly esteemed organizations in the country, there will be attempts by a few DIS'ers to discredit them as against God, anti-Christian liberals or some such absolute vomit spewing garbage.

Quite using the Bible as a weapon folks. You're giving Jesus a bad name.

Wrong answer again on Exodus but it is a nice spin and story generated as part of the agenda that you claim doesnt exist but half truths and down right lies about Exodus prove that there are folks out there trying to discredit any organization that disagrees with their lifestyle.

http://www.exodus.to/content/view/161/56/

Other thoughts concerning the deception of many gay activists calling Michael and Gary, the co-founders of Exodus International. by Stephen Black, Co-Director, First Stone Ministries, Oklahoma City, OK.

It is discrediting to any organization that spreads half-truths about another. It seems that when it is a Christian organization those half-truths can be put up on billboards and on the front pages of newspapers and magazines such as this information concerning the "Fallen Founders of Exodus." Sadly, when the error is found, the correction tends to go to the back of the publication as an "oh, by the way, oops, we made a mistake," and no one ever hears about it. This issue concerning the unsuccessful "co-founders" of Exodus has been less than even remotely genuine. I certainly agree with Bob Davies that as leaders in Exodus ministries we need to be quick to acknowledge Michael Bussee’s role in helping coordinate the "first ever" Exodus gathering of ministry leaders and those who were struggling. However, Exodus has come along way from that first gathering. And we should also add that we appreciate Michael’s labors, and Gary’s volunteer services in running errands and other volunteer services. Knowing the TRUTH about Michael and Gary helps bring clarity.


http://www.drthrockmorton.com/article.asp?id=156

Exodus International is a distinctly religious organization offering services and referrals to people who experience conflict between their sexual feelings and Christian beliefs. However, detractors, such as Mr. Besen, often say that the message and mission of Exodus is compromised due to the failure of the co-founders of the organization to remain heterosexual. Mr. Besen claims that Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper were the co-founders of Exodus International but left the organization to become gay partners.

The second claim is true. As documented in the 1992 film One Nation Under God, these two men did indeed leave their families in 1979 and participated in a commitment ceremony in 1982.

However, the first claim is false. Mr. Cooper and Mr. Bussee were not the co-founders of Exodus International.

Concerning Gary Cooper, in no way can he be considered a founder of Exodus. Mr. Cooper, who died of complications from HIV/AIDS in 1989, was a volunteer with Mr. Bussee’s ministry, called Exit (Ex-gay Intervention Team) based in Anaheim, CA. By all accounts, he was never on the Exodus Board.


Mr. Bussee however, did help arrange a meeting of ex-gay leaders that eventually came to be considered the first Exodus conference and which led to the formation of the Exodus organization in 1975.


The original board of Exodus included 5 formerly gay identified people, including Mr. Bussee. The incorporators of the group included Frank Worthen, Ron Dennis and Greg Reid. None of these men have returned to homosexuality and two of the three are still in ex-gay ministry. One other original board member, although still straight, requested his name not be included in this article. Let’s do the math: four out of five of the founding board have not returned to a gay identity. It seems to me that fair reporting about ex-gay organizations requires an examination of such details.

In contrast, the Salon article depicts a situation in crisis. Jack Drescher, chair of the American Psychiatric Association's Committee on Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues claims that, "We are finding that the numbers of people claiming to be harmed by reparative therapy are increasing." Although I agree that some people leave ex-gays programs feeling disillusioned, the available research does not support Dr. Drescher’s dire assessment. For instance, in a recent study of 2000 episodes of counseling with 600 gays, only 13 episodes were identified as involving sexual reorientation therapy. The floodgates appear to be safe.



Just so this is clear, let’s re-cap. Gary Cooper was not one the co-founders of Exodus. Michael Bussee was on the original board. These married men were involved in an ex-gay ministry in Anaheim, then left their wives and children and returned to a public gay identity. Of the five formerly gay men on the original board of Exodus International, four have not reverted to homosexuality. Frank Worthen and Ron Dennis continue to lead ex-gay organizations. The other two original board members were rumored to have returned to a gay identity but according to both men, this is not true. Thus, 80% of the original Exodus board members are still ex-gay after 30 years.

What is the importance of these observations? If studied objectively, the longevity of change reported by these Exodus leaders could be an important contribution to our understanding of sexuality. While such understanding may not be the result Mr. Besen seeks, inquiring minds may want to know more.


APA:

http://www.narth.com/docs/insiders.html

http://www.narth.com/docs/aparadical.html

 

[RickinNYC]

69 out of 139 posts. 49.64% of your posts directly relate to homosexuality.

I'll pray that you a.) come out of the closet, b.) find a hobby, c.) realize that you have an obsession or d.) all of the above.

 

[RickinNYC]

Wrong answer again on Exodus but it is a nice spin and story generated as part of the agenda that you claim doesnt exist but half truths and down right lies about Exodus prove that there are folks out there trying to discredit any organization that disagrees with their lifestyle.

http://www.exodus.to/content/view/161/56/

Other thoughts concerning the deception of many gay activists calling Michael and Gary, the co-founders of Exodus International. by Stephen Black, Co-Director, First Stone Ministries, Oklahoma City, OK.

It is discrediting to any organization that spreads half-truths about another. It seems that when it is a Christian organization those half-truths can be put up on billboards and on the front pages of newspapers and magazines such as this information concerning the "Fallen Founders of Exodus." Sadly, when the error is found, the correction tends to go to the back of the publication as an "oh, by the way, oops, we made a mistake," and no one ever hears about it. This issue concerning the unsuccessful "co-founders" of Exodus has been less than even remotely genuine. I certainly agree with Bob Davies that as leaders in Exodus ministries we need to be quick to acknowledge Michael Bussee’s role in helping coordinate the "first ever" Exodus gathering of ministry leaders and those who were struggling. However, Exodus has come along way from that first gathering. And we should also add that we appreciate Michael’s labors, and Gary’s volunteer services in running errands and other volunteer services. Knowing the TRUTH about Michael and Gary helps bring clarity.


http://www.drthrockmorton.com/article.asp?id=156

Exodus International is a distinctly religious organization offering services and referrals to people who experience conflict between their sexual feelings and Christian beliefs. However, detractors, such as Mr. Besen, often say that the message and mission of Exodus is compromised due to the failure of the co-founders of the organization to remain heterosexual. Mr. Besen claims that Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper were the co-founders of Exodus International but left the organization to become gay partners.

The second claim is true. As documented in the 1992 film One Nation Under God, these two men did indeed leave their families in 1979 and participated in a commitment ceremony in 1982.

However, the first claim is false. Mr. Cooper and Mr. Bussee were not the co-founders of Exodus International.

Concerning Gary Cooper, in no way can he be considered a founder of Exodus. Mr. Cooper, who died of complications from HIV/AIDS in 1989, was a volunteer with Mr. Bussee’s ministry, called Exit (Ex-gay Intervention Team) based in Anaheim, CA. By all accounts, he was never on the Exodus Board.


Mr. Bussee however, did help arrange a meeting of ex-gay leaders that eventually came to be considered the first Exodus conference and which led to the formation of the Exodus organization in 1975.


The original board of Exodus included 5 formerly gay identified people, including Mr. Bussee. The incorporators of the group included Frank Worthen, Ron Dennis and Greg Reid. None of these men have returned to homosexuality and two of the three are still in ex-gay ministry. One other original board member, although still straight, requested his name not be included in this article. Let’s do the math: four out of five of the founding board have not returned to a gay identity. It seems to me that fair reporting about ex-gay organizations requires an examination of such details.

In contrast, the Salon article depicts a situation in crisis. Jack Drescher, chair of the American Psychiatric Association's Committee on Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues claims that, "We are finding that the numbers of people claiming to be harmed by reparative therapy are increasing." Although I agree that some people leave ex-gays programs feeling disillusioned, the available research does not support Dr. Drescher’s dire assessment. For instance, in a recent study of 2000 episodes of counseling with 600 gays, only 13 episodes were identified as involving sexual reorientation therapy. The floodgates appear to be safe.



Just so this is clear, let’s re-cap. Gary Cooper was not one the co-founders of Exodus. Michael Bussee was on the original board. These married men were involved in an ex-gay ministry in Anaheim, then left their wives and children and returned to a public gay identity. Of the five formerly gay men on the original board of Exodus International, four have not reverted to homosexuality. Frank Worthen and Ron Dennis continue to lead ex-gay organizations. The other two original board members were rumored to have returned to a gay identity but according to both men, this is not true. Thus, 80% of the original Exodus board members are still ex-gay after 30 years.

What is the importance of these observations? If studied objectively, the longevity of change reported by these Exodus leaders could be an important contribution to our understanding of sexuality. While such understanding may not be the result Mr. Besen seeks, inquiring minds may want to know more.


APA:

http://www.narth.com/docs/insiders.html

http://www.narth.com/docs/aparadical.html

spin doctor

An individual charged with getting others to interpret a statement or event from a particular viewpoint, as in Charlie is the governor's spin doctor. This term, born about 1980 along with spin control, uses doctor in the colloquial sense of “one who repairs something.”

 

[Saxsoon]

A gay republican Christian! Call the National Inquirer! lol

I don't see why Christianity should be anything more than loving the one who created us and died for our sins. Yes my church goes out and does service work in the community, but it not because we will go to heaven over it. It is what Jesus would want us to do in society that is bigoted, hatred multiplys by the minute, and simple good can be seen as a miracle of God.

I hate to say, but some in this thread have done more damage to the Christian faith (not-intentionally) than the supposed Gay Agenda. People see the Christians as the Do-gooders, and will look for fault in any of our actions, including our views towards other people. Discernment, please read this. Your not convincing anyone except that they shouldn't be Christian.

Do I think homosexuality is a sin, yes. Do I agree with it entirely, no. But does that mean I can't show them the same compassion that Jesus showed to me and the billion or two Christians in the world today. Does that mean they should have that train to hell much faster than I should, no. Does that mean they are beyond even God's mightiest power to forgive, no. Because, if that were so, why aren't you(the Christians against Gays) playing Poker with Lucifer right now betting for your soul. And most importantly, should their lives be any less important than mine or yours, and should they live it fear from the bigots, no. God loves all, the straight, the gay, the homeless one down on fifth street, and even the Democrats. Yes Ann Coulter, even God loves the Democrats.

It through compassion and love that one can show the true message of Christ and actually making a difference. I admit it, I will be going to Roswell with my church to "convert" the alienheads. But if they tell me to stop, or not to even start, I will not berate them and shove a flaming cross down their throat.

To Discernment, would you listen to some if they kept shoving something down your throat. I will leave you that to ponder. Your not getting anywhere with the people in this thread because they percieve you in this way.

Please, I beg you, if you have been turned off by Christianity in this thread, don't believe every single Christian thinks this way. Don't let anyone tell you that you were a mistake, an abomination that not even God oversaw your creation. God has a purpose for you.

Rick, if you don't mind, may I borrow you sig and state, "Go out and do Good
Have fun.

 

[jimmiej]

The reason I joined the Episcopal Church several years ago is because of it's open-mindedness, and the fact that it is one of the FEW denominations that doesn't tell you what you should do and how you should live your life. I don't want to spend my time in church being yelled at, berated, and lectured.

You know, the apostle Paul wrote many letters to the local churches (and also visited them personally) giving them instructions on how to live the Christian life. He also chastised them when they weren't living a life worthy of the Christian faith. God Himself chastised some of the churches in chapters 2-3 of the Revelation to the apostle John. Sometimes, we need a good talking-to to keep us focused. That's no different from other aspects of our lives. It's never pleasant, but usually needed.

Now of course, if you don't believe the words of Paul are the Word of God, that's a whole other debate.

*This post was not necessarily aimed at the DznyFan, just a general statement as others have posted similar thoughts.

 

[snowwite]

Come on in! The (holy) water is fine!!

.....

now there's a tag for the tag fairy if I ever saw one!

 

[MrVisible]

APA:

http://www.narth.com/docs/insiders.html

http://www.narth.com/docs/aparadical.html

Oh, so all that's necessary to discredit an organization like the APA in regard to a fringe, splinter group like NARTH is to quote a couple of articles by the organization in question? Talk about your loose standards.

But hey, I'm game. Let's take a look at this fun little letter by Ralph Roughton, MD, the 6 year Chairman of the Committee on Issues of Homosexuality for the American Psychoanalytic Association, shall we?

NARTH's official position is that homosexuality is "a treatable disorder." Dr. Socarides has repeatedly stated in writing that "the homosexual, no matter his or her level of adaptation and functioning in other areas of life, is severely handicapped in the most vital area -- interpersonal relations." He strongly opposed the adoption by the APsaA in 1991 of a resolution that required the selection of analytic candidates and faculty to be based on factors other than sexual orientation. He has written in newspaper articles that the gay rights movement is destroying society, he has supported attempts to overturn gay rights laws in various states, and this fall he and other officers of NARTH will testify as expert witnesses in the state of Louisiana in favor of upholding laws making oral and anal sex between consenting adults illegal. Increasingly, NARTH seems to be attracting membership and financial support from members of the radical religious right, who use their pronouncements as "scientific" backing for their bigoted anti-homosexual activities.

The Executive Director of NARTH, Joseph Nicolosi, PhD, has stated in a printed editorial that he will not work with a homosexual patient who does not want to change his sexual orientation. Dr. Socarides' treatment attempts have been described in the past as being more educative and manipulative than analytic. It is my understanding that he no longer identifies himself in publications as a psychoanlayst, but rather as a psychiatrist. Dr. Nicolosi is a psychologist who has not had psychoanalytic training and works out of a religiously oriented counselling center.

They approach treatment of gay and lesbian patients with the goal of changing their sexual orientation -- clearly not an analytic stance. It is my own personal belief that many of their so-called successful conversions occur in either people with bisexual potential, or as "transference cures" in those who have severe psychopathology with little sense of identity and who are very maleable, or in those who have a strong desire to avoid dealing with their homosexuality and a strong wish to please the authoritative therapist. It is of course possible to learn to inhibit one's sexual desires and to control one's behavior. Another criticism of their claims is that they offer almost no long-term followup data. Many of us know of cases that ended conversion treatment as "cured" in whom the change did not last.

Even if we take their claims for success at face value, they report success rates of only 35 % at best. They do not discuss the 65% who do not change, except to emphasize that those who are highly motivated to change are more likely to be successful. There are growing anecdotal reports from other analysts that they frequently see those patients who attempted such "conversion" therapy and who have suffered serious adverse effects, such as depression, lowered self-esteem, increased shame and self-hatred -- and many who, under the belief that they had "changed," have married and now have children.

Keep citing NARTH. Really, it's amusing. Keep in mind, that while you've got NARTH and the papers that NARTH members write to support NARTH, I've got the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics , the American School Health Association, the American Association of School Administrators, the American Federation of Teachers, and the National Education Association. So let's get into a cite war, shall we? It'll be fun.