I am beginning to lose hope...

[magnusx1]

Nice post. I think charging for something in order to control demand is just smart business. Disney is the only park system that doesn't charge for it's line-bypass queuing system; while that's noble and benevolent in some regards, it introduces the same issues one would see with anything else that is "free" - increased demand.

Do I think Disney should introduce a charge for some or all of FP? Yes.
Would I pay for it? Probably not.

You gotta wonder, tho, after all the effort that Disney went into making sure that guests knew that the whole FastPass system was free, how much worse will things go if all of a sudden it's pay to play? All the staff that was out in the parks at the old FP- machines letting everyone know that the paper tickets were no more, they would need probably triple the amount at the FP entrances to make sure that people knew that you needed to pay to use this feature. And it still would be a fustercluck!

I think the best way to alleviate some of the headaches and bellyaching that guests have had is to tier it for resort guest and no resort guests, and then further tier it within the resort guests depending on where you stay. Staying at a Deluxe? No restrictions, book at 60 days, no tiers, park hop, unlimited after the first 3, etc. Staying at a Moderate? 45 day booking. Value? 30 day booking. Off site? Same as Value, yet you're only allowed a maximum of 5 FP+ per day, and you tier Epcot and HS. Maybe even make another perk of staying onsite being that you can get an extra 1 FP+ during any morning EMHs and 2 additional for evening EMHs, booked at the same window as the rest.

Is it perfect? No, I'm sure it can be tweaked and added to/subtracted from at length, but I think it would start the conversation and have folks accept it a bit more, and it drives people to stay on site. It also doesn't "penalize" you, really, for staying at a value vs deluxe other than when you can book. I think some people thought that if resort tiereing were put in place, only certain attractions would be available to certain guests, which would totally be the wrong way to go.

 

[Laketravis]

You gotta wonder, tho, after all the effort that Disney went into making sure that guests knew that the whole FastPass system was free, how much worse will things go if all of a sudden it's pay to play?

According to some posters, a considerable number of guests already think it's something you have to pay for.

 

[grimley1968]

You gotta wonder, tho, after all the effort that Disney went into making sure that guests knew that the whole FastPass system was free, how much worse will things go if all of a sudden it's pay to play? All the staff that was out in the parks at the old FP- machines letting everyone know that the paper tickets were no more, they would need probably triple the amount at the FP entrances to make sure that people knew that you needed to pay to use this feature. And it still would be a fustercluck!

I think the best way to alleviate some of the headaches and bellyaching that guests have had is to tier it for resort guest and no resort guests, and then further tier it within the resort guests depending on where you stay. Staying at a Deluxe? No restrictions, book at 60 days, no tiers, park hop, unlimited after the first 3, etc. Staying at a Moderate? 45 day booking. Value? 30 day booking. Off site? Same as Value, yet you're only allowed a maximum of 5 FP+ per day, and you tier Epcot and HS. Maybe even make another perk of staying onsite being that you can get an extra 1 FP+ during any morning EMHs and 2 additional for evening EMHs, booked at the same window as the rest.

Is it perfect? No, I'm sure it can be tweaked and added to/subtracted from at length, but I think it would start the conversation and have folks accept it a bit more, and it drives people to stay on site. It also doesn't "penalize" you, really, for staying at a value vs deluxe other than when you can book. I think some people thought that if resort tiereing were put in place, only certain attractions would be available to certain guests, which would totally be the wrong way to go.

Interesting. They could very possibly adopt a variation of this, with the difference being that everyone would be allowed FP+ the way it is now. But if you're staying onsite, you could possibly reserve more FP's in advance and possibly even reserve FP's after the initial 3 while in the park on the MDE app. They could possibly even differentiate guests further by resort class, as your post points out. A caveat to this would be that they'd need to increase the number of attractions or this would never work. It's not as though Disney isn't already affecting guests in-park experiences already: that's shown by the 30-day/60-day booking window differentiation between offsite and onsite guests.

Personally, I don't like the thought of this, but I could easily see it as a future change in FP+.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Good thing they are bringing this to Disneyland.

This will be interesting to watch

 

[ArwenMarie]

Question...I haven't gone past trying to get a 4th...

If you use the 4th and go for a 5th, can you do that on your phone or do you need to go back to the kiosk again?

 

[MrInfinity]

Good thing they are bringing this to Disneyland.

If DCA was not tiered... I'd FP+ TSMM, California Screamin, and RSR. If it was tiered, I'd probly go for RSR.
At Disneyland, I'd probly FP+ Matterhorn, Indiana Jones, and... hm. Maybe Peter Pan or the Finding Nemo Voyage.

 

[WillAustin]

Question...I haven't gone past trying to get a 4th...

If you use the 4th and go for a 5th, can you do that on your phone or do you need to go back to the kiosk again?

Any beyond 3 are only available at kiosks.

 

[Tarheel girl 1975]

If DCA was not tiered... I'd FP+ TSMM, California Screamin, and RSR. If it was tiered, I'd probly go for RSR.
At Disneyland, I'd probly FP+ Matterhorn, Indiana Jones, and... hm. Maybe Peter Pan or the Finding Nemo Voyage.

Interesting since I know at least 2 of those rides don't currently have FP.

 

[disndatworld]

Back in the 2006-2009 range I used to be in a group that did surveys for WDW. There were surveys on FP changes, what about web/mobile, would we like it, would we use it, etc., etc., etc. I had a preview into some of the ideas they were considering before the major MDE implementation.

What is surprising to me now is how extensive they made the change: in other words, they didn't just create an 'automated FP system', but rather they created an entirely new MDE process that accounts for your hotel experience, your park entrance experience, store payment experience, dining payment experience, FP experience, and I'm sure I have missed a few things.

The cost to implement these changes were significant, obviously. And the cost to change or maintain them is also significant.

I also work as a solution architect for a very large corporation. I would be the lead technical person responsible for overseeing the design, solution and implementation of a system like MDE - I am not in the theme-park industry, but I do work with business & technical teams to solve big problems.

I would expect the limitations around changes to be:

1) physical limitations - i.e. capacity restrictions on rides, numbers of guests
2) network accessibility - granting tens of thousands high quality wi-fi is very difficult.
3) support concerns - supporting technical systems is costly and challenging

• Believe me, whether to grant 3 FP or 4 initially is not a technical issue. It is a limitation elsewhere (#1)
• Adding a 4th or 5th via mobile app is probably related to #2 & #3 - it's just easier for them to have kiosks than 20K+ entry points
• It would create a nightmare for them to have to support tens of thousands of people, many of which may have complaints and don't know how to connect to a network to the wi-fi networks. What do you do if you can't get it to work? You call somebody, and now they are dealing with problems they don't want and are time-sensitive.

I think the FP+ system component is more complex than people think too. Our recent visit uncovered some surprising things:

1) There are different types/buckets of FP that can be allocated:

• Inventory (the ones we pick from)
• Non-Inventory (the ones Guest-Relations can provide because of issues, etc.)

2) When attractions are down during the FP timespan, new rules seem to be assigned to the FP

• You can use your FP at another attraction
• You can use your FP later in the day

3) The ride / line operator have great influence over the process

• They have an 'app' on a nearby tablet/iPad which gives them statistics to make decisions: how many SB vs. FP+ to let into the ride loading area
• They will grant people access who do not have a FP (some in the group did not have valid FP but were let in - we saw this a lot last week)
• They can speed-up / slow-down the loading process & attraction speed significantly

The point is, the system must account for a lot of factors which are continually influenced, in real-time, by changing conditions. So at the end of the day, they are probably not willing to have you 'over-plan' your trip - because it could fall apart really easily.

Real-life example: The day before I recently left for WDW - all of my FP+ reservations were gone. They were mistakenly deleted, not by me, but somehow were lost. It took me 1 hr 40 min on the phone w/ Guest Relations for them to help me reschedule my FP+ selections. There is a cost for WDW to too heavily rely on this process. If all rides have to go through MDE, then there is a very high cost to making that happen. It is always easiest and less-expensive to have people simple do SB lines. They cannot afford to help too many people with 'technical issues'

With the implementation the way it is, it heavily gives an advantage to WDW

• They can provide good service around your first 3 attractions (albeit with tiering, and running out of popular attractions)
• They get strong analytics around your visit ahead of time - this helps with staffing, transportation, etc.
• They can 'manage' the crowds. By limiting FP+ availability, they can drive you where 'they' want you to be
• Any problems with scheduling FP+ are 'ahead-of-time' of your trip, and less time-sensitive. 4th FP+ are at a kiosk where there is a CM to assist.

I think we can expect small, incremental changes. Not significant, major retooling of the process or rules they are using today.

Just my thoughts.

 

[flicx]

I had a bunch of replies typed up, but they got lost.....

Well they could try building more attractions. I find it frustrating that outside of Avatarland, Disney hasn't even announced any other plans for expansions (that don'tinclude shoopping or eating.) There have been hints and rumors, but nothing solid. And I honestly don't know why it takes them so long to complete something new.
I feel like Disney has been resting on laurels for the last few years. I think they may finally be realizing that they need to catch up, but they seem to be in no hurry to do so.

Here in lies the biggest problem in my opinion! Disney needs to build attractions not expensive ride allotment systems. It is so simple, get back to what made Disney what it was ie, build topnotch attractions. The money will take care of itself.

 

[livingthedream]

Back in the 2006-2009 range I used to be in a group that did surveys for WDW. There were surveys on FP changes, what about web/mobile, would we like it, would we use it, etc., etc., etc. I had a preview into some of the ideas they were considering before the major MDE implementation.

What is surprising to me now is how extensive they made the change: in other words, they didn't just create an 'automated FP system', but rather they created an entirely new MDE process that accounts for your hotel experience, your park entrance experience, store payment experience, dining payment experience, FP experience, and I'm sure I have missed a few things.

The cost to implement these changes were significant, obviously. And the cost to change or maintain them is also significant.

I also work as a solution architect for a very large corporation. I would be the lead technical person responsible for overseeing the design, solution and implementation of a system like MDE - I am not in the theme-park industry, but I do work with business & technical teams to solve big problems.

I would expect the limitations around changes to be:

1) physical limitations - i.e. capacity restrictions on rides, numbers of guests
2) network accessibility - granting tens of thousands high quality wi-fi is very difficult.
3) support concerns - supporting technical systems is costly and challenging

• Believe me, whether to grant 3 FP or 4 initially is not a technical issue. It is a limitation elsewhere (#1)
• Adding a 4th or 5th via mobile app is probably related to #2 & #3 - it's just easier for them to have kiosks than 20K+ entry points
• It would create a nightmare for them to have to support tens of thousands of people, many of which may have complaints and don't know how to connect to a network to the wi-fi networks. What do you do if you can't get it to work? You call somebody, and now they are dealing with problems they don't want and are time-sensitive.

I think the FP+ system component is more complex than people think too. Our recent visit uncovered some surprising things:

1) There are different types/buckets of FP that can be allocated:

• Inventory (the ones we pick from)
• Non-Inventory (the ones Guest-Relations can provide because of issues, etc.)

2) When attractions are down during the FP timespan, new rules seem to be assigned to the FP

• You can use your FP at another attraction
• You can use your FP later in the day

3) The ride / line operator have great influence over the process

• They have an 'app' on a nearby tablet/iPad which gives them statistics to make decisions: how many SB vs. FP+ to let into the ride loading area
• They will grant people access who do not have a FP (some in the group did not have valid FP but were let in - we saw this a lot last week)
• They can speed-up / slow-down the loading process & attraction speed significantly

The point is, the system must account for a lot of factors which are continually influenced, in real-time, by changing conditions. So at the end of the day, they are probably not willing to have you 'over-plan' your trip - because it could fall apart really easily.

Real-life example: The day before I recently left for WDW - all of my FP+ reservations were gone. They were mistakenly deleted, not by me, but somehow were lost. It took me 1 hr 40 min on the phone w/ Guest Relations for them to help me reschedule my FP+ selections. There is a cost for WDW to too heavily rely on this process. If all rides have to go through MDE, then there is a very high cost to making that happen. It is always easiest and less-expensive to have people simple do SB lines. They cannot afford to help too many people with 'technical issues'

With the implementation the way it is, it heavily gives an advantage to WDW

• They can provide good service around your first 3 attractions (albeit with tiering, and running out of popular attractions)
• They get strong analytics around your visit ahead of time - this helps with staffing, transportation, etc.
• They can 'manage' the crowds. By limiting FP+ availability, they can drive you where 'they' want you to be
• Any problems with scheduling FP+ are 'ahead-of-time' of your trip, and less time-sensitive. 4th FP+ are at a kiosk where there is a CM to assist.

I think we can expect small, incremental changes. Not significant, major retooling of the process or rules they are using today.

Just my thoughts.

I think ^^^^^^^^ is one of the most objective, well thought out comments about the entire FP+ system in a very long time. Disney had always stated that one of FP+'s main objectives was to better anticipate the crowds so they could staff more appropriately. I believe this is one positive result for the company, and that Disney is using this information to better staff CMs where appropriate. Unfortunately, what I suspect they didn't anticipate was the level of 'technical' support they would require in order to continuously respond to the MDE user. This, I suspect, is where they are facing cost over-runs, and far more so than anything on the coding side.

And as I believe the above-poster noted, by bottle-necking a lot of things associated with rides through MDE, it essentially puts all of Disney's eggs in one basket as far as ride management goes. When the system goes down, or the user uses the system inappropriately, it takes time to untangle things, and because Disney is paying their staff to do this - time is money....money that many would argue could be spent differently - on developing new rides, for example.

Despite some concerns I have about the constraints of the system, however, I for one am glad it looks like Disney will not soon be making any changes to FP+. I hope they use this time to work on the deficiencies of the system in its current state, and only when these are smoothed out (recognizing that nothing is perfect), do they look at how to introduce new things into the system.

While I have never been a huge fan of FP+, I am a huge fan of Disney, and since they have heavily invested in this system, I wish them well in getting it to work as well as was intended, understanding that they will not be able to please everybody.

 

[flicx]

Unfortunately, what I suspect they didn't anticipate was the level of 'technical' support they would require in order to continuously respond to the MDE user. This, I suspect, is where they are facing cost over-runs, and far more so than anything on the coding side.

I agree whole heartedly here. This unfortunately will be a side effect for as long as they use the system. Their lack of foresight here could be very costly in the long run.

 

[JimmyV]

The changes people out here really want are to have a system more like FP-, which they were able to use more extensively at the expense of other guests using it little or not at all. Essentially, "to be able to ride more rides repeat times even if other guests get to not ride at all" like we could before, is not going to happen.

Right, this would be awesome. No tiers. a.k.a. "I want two". "Give me fast passes to Soarin and Test Track and I'll buy in." That's just not going to happen. It is hoping for the impossible.

So that brings us back to where the OP started. If 10% of hard corp Disney fans "hate" FP+, and 39% are only going to like it if changes are in the offing, and the changes that they want are "not going to happen" and "impossible", where will that leave Disney in a year or two? If the 39% don't get what they want, (and I'm not suggesting that you are wrong in concluding that they won't), doesn't that leave WDW with a 50/50 acceptance rate? How does Disney move the 39% over to the "Like" column?

 

[ArwenMarie]

Real-life example: The day before I recently left for WDW - all of my FP+ reservations were gone. They were mistakenly deleted, not by me, but somehow were lost. It took me 1 hr 40 min on the phone w/ Guest Relations for them to help me reschedule my FP+ selections. There is a cost for WDW to too heavily rely on this process. If all rides have to go through MDE, then there is a very high cost to making that happen. It is always easiest and less-expensive to have people simple do SB lines. They cannot afford to help too many people with 'technical issues'

With the implementation the way it is, it heavily gives an advantage to WDW

• They can provide good service around your first 3 attractions (albeit with tiering, and running out of popular attractions)
• They get strong analytics around your visit ahead of time - this helps with staffing, transportation, etc.
• They can 'manage' the crowds. By limiting FP+ availability, they can drive you where 'they' want you to be
• Any problems with scheduling FP+ are 'ahead-of-time' of your trip, and less time-sensitive. 4th FP+ are at a kiosk where there is a CM to assist.

I think we can expect small, incremental changes. Not significant, major retooling of the process or rules they are using today.

Just my thoughts.

Do you think you received good service? They lost your 3 prebooked FPs and if I am understanding it correctly, you spent 1 hr 40 min on the phone to get them back? Did you receive any compensation for your time?

I agree though, there is a reason they are controlling the 4th FP at the kiosks. Probably multiple reasons.

 

[Cormoran]

Unfortunately, what I suspect they didn't anticipate was the level of 'technical' support they would require in order to continuously respond to the MDE user. This, I suspect, is where they are facing cost over-runs, and far more so than anything on the coding side.

I don't think they will ever be able to reduce the technical support required for FP+. Every day there are many guests interacting with FP+ for the first time and they will always require a lot of education. Disney may be able to cut CM's and ride capacity based on their anticipated attendance for the day, but I think the cost of maintianing FP+ and educating new guests is going to outweigh the savings they realize on "right size" staffing.

 

[mom2rtk]

I don't think they will ever be able to reduce the technical support required for FP+. Every day there are many guests interacting with FP+ for the first time and they will always require a lot of education. Disney may be able to cut CM's and ride capacity based on their anticipated attendance for the day, but I think the cost of maintianing FP+ and educating new guests is going to outweigh the savings they realize on "right size" staffing.

Haven't we been told forever that WDW is all about the first time visitor?

 

[Cormoran]

Do you think you received good service? They lost your 3 prebooked FPs and if I am understanding it correctly, you spent 1 hr 40 min on the phone to get them back? Did you receive any compensation for your time?

I agree though, there is a reason they are controlling the 4th FP at the kiosks. Probably multiple reasons.

If it weren't for a high volume of guest complaints, Disney never would've offered a 4th and beyond FP. They don't have enough ride capacitiy to reliably offer guests more 3 FP's. the elusive 4th was offered toappease angry guests.
It's a win win for Disney, since anyone who wants a 4th FP has to stand in a Kiosk line. If people could access the 4th FP on the app, most would realize that the 4th FP is a theory, but not a reality. Unless, of course, you're happy with 2nd or 3rd tier attraction for your 4th FP.

 

[JimmyV]

They can provide good service around your first 3 attractions (albeit with tiering, and running out of popular attractions)

The "albeit" part of this is sort of like the old: "Well....other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play". One difficulty that Disney is encountering is the exact opposite of what it wants, which is the build up of anticipation when you are "locked in" and still months away. When people get shut out of opportunities 59 days in advance because they did not win the midnight lottery, (or did not enter it), then the "good service" for the 3 attractions becomes bitter disappointment. Granted, this is only happening for a very few attractions. But still. You don't want to have your customers brooding for 59 days. You want them jumping for joy. Under the prior system, no one could get disappointed until after they paid for their hotel, bought their admission tickets, and entered the park. And if they did get shut out of an attraction, they could "blame the system" to a small degree, all the while knowing that the "fix" is completely within their control. They always had the option of saying: "We'll get it tomorrow". The current system is ticking people off well in advance of the start of their vacations and leaves them powerless to do anything about it. So yes, the system does provide good service when it provides good service. But the flip side of that is the long-term disappointment that cannot be remedied. Could it cause people to cancel their trips or take a ride up I-4? Maybe. Probably not in huge numbers. But even one person who says: "I didn't get A&E or 7DMT...I think I'll spend that day visiting Harry Potter instead" is one more person than said it before.

They can 'manage' the crowds. By limiting FP+ availability, they can drive you where 'they' want you to be

I always hoped that they would manage crowds not by limiting FPs for a particular attraction, but instead by doling out extra FPs for other attractions. "Tomorrowland is too crowded. Need more people in Adventureland. Let's give out a bunch of FPs for JUngle Cruise". So if you were in Tomorrowland, you might see on your smartphone an email or a text letting you know that you had been sprinkled with pixie dust and had a "free" FP to use in Adventureland within the next 90 minutes or so. Yes, FP+ can be used to manipulate crowds. But I sure hope that it is used for the enrichment of guests and not the suppression of guests.

 

[goofyernmost]

Hmm, it sounds like I might have assumed some things that aren't true, and I'm sorry if I'm about to ask dumb questions, but I'm only about two weeks into 'studying' Disney for the first time in years and years.

I have one day hoppers coming up. I have my first three initial FP+. I assumed once they were used I would be able to use MY PHONE/the app (because this seems like a no-brainer) to either check for more FP+ in the first park, or line up new FP+ for another park to hop to. It sounds like am wrong on both counts?

Thanks. Okay, I am becoming less neutral.

I really hate to drop the "I work in IT" card but ... Yeah, that doesn't sound like a difficult problem to solve; it sounds like they don't want to allocate anyone more than three FP per day online, no matter what, and that the kiosk system is completely separate from the app system.

(And again I apologize to regulars if I am re-treading well trodden ground. I learn quick but I'm still a noob.)

Well for everyone that hates it because it's diffferent there are one or two that are OK with it. For example, I always have a Park Hopper and I always use it.

I decided on February 1st to take a quick trip to Florida on the 9th of February. I stay offsite and have a non-expiration ticket. I got on line that day and set up three days worth of FP's and two Dining APR's. I got everything I asked for except 7DMT. No hassle at all. I now have them on my phone ready to be used and I assume that my card will work fine. At least it did last time. (I don't like the bands mostly because since I am not staying onsite, they charge me for a Magic Band and the card works just fine and just as easy in my opinion)

My plan that took me the huge amount of time of about a half hour was to concentrate my FP's on my first of the day park, use the fastpasses and then go to my second park and head for the kiosk. Now for those that just love the old system, please tell me the difference between going to the old FP dispensing Kiosk areas and going to the kiosks. I see no difference at all. When you get to a second park there was always the risk that what you wanted a FP for was already maxed out anyway.

It is obvious that it is set up the way they want it to be therefore limiting the vast number that some used to get and allow others that may have not been able to get one to have a chance as well as limit the numbers that just go to one ride (the popular one) It may have been something that some individuals don't like but, there are a lot of individuals in the park and one persons desire cannot rule out the desires of the rest.

Did I mention that I did all that only 9 days in advance?

 

[flicx]

Now for those that just love the old system, please tell me the difference between going to the old FP dispensing Kiosk areas and going to the kiosks. I see no difference at all.

Very simple the old kiosks almost no lines most of the day. No one deciding which ride do I want to go on. You walked up stuck in your ticket and bam your on your way. Now that's a huge difference!