I am beginning to lose hope...

[flicx]

Yes why is this so hard to grasp. FP+ is a system that can be monetized. FP- was not.

FP-: 1 guest rode Soarin 5 times, waiting 20 min each time. 4 guests rode 1 time, waiting 60 min each time. Total time waited: 340 minutes. Ride was ridden 9 times.
FP+: 5 guests ride Soarin once, waiting 20 min. Original guest wants to ride 4 more times, but must wait 60 for each one. Total time waited: 340 minutes. Ride was ridden 9 times.

Under FP+, the one guest who used to ride all day long via FP- gets hosed. But the other 4 guests each got to ride in 40 min less time.

You've now: Prevented one user from consuming all the value of the rides, and facilitated others who previously got little, to get some.

The one guest will not wait an hour for each riding. instead, he only rides 2 or 3 times. Which opens up the ride for now a 5th and 6th guest to get one. So now, the 9 ridings end up divided up among 7 or 8 people, which is clearly better.

This is a profitable plan.

Unless you can show me why Disney is better off giving any one person 5 FPs and 4 other guests none, you have no case to argue that FP- was a better system than FP+.

I get that YOU were the person put out by this. But you have to look at what is best in the big picture... getting you on what you want, or getting more folks on some.

Oh I can play the hosed under plus game just like your example for legacy. The majority of ticket holders don't stay at Disney. This is a fact. The fact also remains that these people don't get equal access to the 60 day window like on site guests. Now who is getting hosed? How about when they shut down attractions to fast pass only? Who got hosed? Please quit pretending the only people who used legacy where those gathering 5 rides for things. They were the minority. Lots and lots of people didn't do this, they used one went to another attraction and grabbed one and then, rode non headliners in lines that were shorter.

 

[Hokie2000]

Sorry , Im trying to get used to the boards and sometimes I hit a button prematurely. Here you go on the IT stuff I was referring to. Now FP+ requires IT support fro the time you make your FP+ reservations 60 days out. The old kiosks had one person manning the kiosks for each FP ride. Now each Kiosk area has several support people armed with pads.
I can't tell you about how much the ink and paper in the legacy machines cost, but I think Disney's biggest expense is their employees. Just like every other large company. So now that there are more employees stationed at all of these kiosks and at the rides, I would imagine it's costing a lot more than ink and paper.

Your post reminded me of this Dilbert cartoon:


For some reason I can't choose Smilies on my phone, but insert laughing smilie here.

 

[Hokie2000]

Nevermind, found the Smilies! New board learning curve...

 

[MrInfinity]

Oh I can play the hosed under plus game just like your example for legacy. The majority of ticket holders don't stay at Disney. This is a fact.

Is this true? Can you provide data? I have no idea. I'd guess it's around half. Quick google search. There are approx. 20,000 rooms on WDW prop. If they have an average of 4 people per room, and 90% fill, that is 72,000 people. How many ppl hit up Disney daily? 140,000? Ok, so around half.

The fact also remains that these people don't get equal access to the 60 day window like on site guests. Now who is getting hosed? How about when they shut down attractions to fast pass only? Who got hosed? Please quit pretending the only people who used legacy where those gathering 5 rides for things. They were the minority. Lots and lots of people didn't do this, they used one went to another attraction and grabbed one and then, rode non headliners in lines that were shorter.

Who does not get equal access? Could those who want access at 60 days not buy the same room? Or do they want the same perk but for free? Is there anything else you think Disney should offer for free? Should parking be free? Why not? It affects some people who will pay for it but not those who don't. Should Disney ~not~ use its resources (rides) to attempt to sell rooms? Should it be purchased by the government and operated as a benefit? We could call it Obamafun.

Sadly, Disney is a luxury park that is going to attempt to make money by selling rooms, and it will leverage it's rides to sell those rooms. So you can't stay offsite and ride over and over any more. Disney will get over it, because they can sell the rides you used to consume to 9 other guests who will stay on property. When they cant fit more guests on property, they'll build another hotel.

 

[Hokie2000]

They are talking about MMplus in the ads, but they really have put an emphasis on being able to reserve a ride in advance. I feel had they spent the same time and effort on legacy people would use it just as much. They could have gone with the MMplus system and a hybrid of legacy and probably gotten by with less cost and more efficiency.

You're probably right. But if they're making the investment in Magicbands, MDE, etc, why not include a ride reservation system that is designed to keep people on property longer? FP- as a hybrid wouldn't accomplish that.

 

[flicx]

You have no more facts to back this up than anyone else does to say fp+ makes money. We're all guessing.

Never said I had facts. Have stated numerous times my opinion. So please don't put words into my mouth!

 

[JimmyV]

Yes why is this so hard to grasp. FP+ is a system that can be monetized. FP- was not.

FP-: 1 guest rode Soarin 5 times, waiting 20 min each time. 4 guests rode 1 time, waiting 60 min each time. Total time waited: 340 minutes. Ride was ridden 9 times.
FP+: 5 guests ride Soarin once, waiting 20 min. Original guest wants to ride 4 more times, but must wait 60 for each one. Total time waited: 340 minutes. Ride was ridden 9 times.

Under FP+, the one guest who used to ride all day long via FP- gets hosed. But the other 4 guests each got to ride in 40 min less time.

You've now: Prevented one user from consuming all the value of the rides, and facilitated others who previously got little, to get some.

The one guest will not wait an hour for each riding. instead, he only rides 2 or 3 times. Which opens up the ride for now a 5th and 6th guest to get one. So now, the 9 ridings end up divided up among 7 or 8 people, which is clearly better.

This is a profitable plan.

Unless you can show me why Disney is better off giving any one person 5 FPs and 4 other guests none, you have no case to argue that FP- was a better system than FP+.

I get that YOU were the person put out by this. But you have to look at what is best in the big picture... getting you on a ride 5 times, or you and 4 other guests on once.

All of this makes sense except the assertion of profit. How did this scenario generate income? 9 rides were taken over the span of 340 minutes in each scenario. Who was spending more money in scenario #2? Not the headline commando. He was either in line for 240 minutes, or, more likely, out riding other rides. Or if he is Laketravis, he left the park and is spending the afternoon in Universal.

 

[flicx]

Is this true? Can you provide data? I have no idea. I'd guess it's around half. Quick google search. There are approx. 20,000 rooms on WDW prop. If they have an average of 4 people per room, and 90% fill, that is 72,000 people. How many ppl hit up Disney daily? 140,000? Ok, so around half.
These numbers have been posted many times on these very boards.


Who does not get equal access? Could those who want access at 60 days not buy the same room? Or do they want the same perk but for free? Is there anything else you think Disney should offer for free? Should parking be free? Why not? It affects some people who will pay for it but not those who don't. Should Disney ~not~ use its resources (rides) to attempt to sell rooms? Should it be purchased by the government and operated as a benefit? We could call it Obamafun.
Ah but aren't you the one wanting a fairer more equitable system. Seems you have posted this quite often!
Sadly, Disney is a luxury park that is going to attempt to make money by selling rooms, and it will leverage it's rides to sell those rooms. So you can't stay offsite and ride over and over any more. Disney will get over it, because they can sell the rides you used to consume to 9 other guests who will stay on property. When they cant fit more guests on property, they'll build another hotel.

Here we go again with legacy being portrayed as a system that only uber users accessed!

 

[Laketravis]

Everyone knows that in many businesses, some of their products/services have higher profit margins than others. McDonalds makes very little on hamburgers, but makes a TON of money on fries and an even HUGER profit on drinks (at least according to popular legend).

But McDonalds doesn't have a bunch of beancounters and suits trying to come up with ways to limit hamburger sales on the assumption that this must inevitably lead to more profitable sales of fries and drinks, cashing in on their supposed market dominance. They know that it's the hamburgers that are the one and only real reason to visit their restaurants ... err, McCafés. Nobody at McDonalds would be so stupid as to impose a limit on the number of hamburger sales or to invent a computerized "tier" system in which you can only get a second quarter pounder if you also buy a large Coke beforehand. They don't make you reserve your hamburger a week in advance even though that would help them to plan staffing levels in advance. That would be completely stupid, because it would show extreme ignorance of why people come to McDonalds in the first place, and what they expect to happen there. So what if a few cheapskates come in and order 2 regular cheeseburgers and a glass of water? The next group in line will be a bunch of teenagers ordering 6 large soft drinks and 6 large fries. If they started to hassle and interfere with the guy ordering 2 (or 10) plain hamburgers, and furthermore to give this policy the slogan "Hamburgers Your Way [TM]" then the vibe that they would give to all of their customers is just plain wrong.

The existence of a few people who are thrilled to be able to reserve their hamburger in advance and get a ready-made, balanced (sic) meal all ready-made for them on a tray doesn't change the essential fact that McDonalds means hamburgers ... and WDW means rides.

Your post illustrates the fact that the "FP+ Debate" gets bogged down with side-track conversations about what one could or couldn't do with the previous system, what one can or can't do with the current system, how it's beneficial or not beneficial, whether we wait in line 10 minutes or 11, etc.......

The problem with all of that is the discussion falsely focuses on a guest perspective, and what everyone is talking about is not guest-centric but actually company-centric. Kuddo's to Fuzzy for explaining capex to the audience, but MM+/FP+ is also a sunk cost. It's an initiative that was born at WDW but was intended to grow up as it's own silo across the entire Disney theme park enterprise. It's a long term strategic plan to maximize the yield of existing resources to defer the need of investing in new ones. It's a tactical plan to reduce and eliminate chronically high internal costs that don't contribute to revenue. It's intended to absorb the peaks and valleys of an entertainment economy with a high level of fluidity.

It is all of that and so much more that is intended to benefit Disney that having a discussion about total aggregate time in lines is like pulling one McDonald's french fry out of the day's entire production and drawing conclusions about the potato it came from. In other words, ridiculous. Theme Parks are among the last sectors of an economy to benefit from good times, and they are the first to suffer from bad times. When the debate can lift itself out of these senseless comparisons of individual experiences and begin to focus on that bigger picture, we will all learn more about how these efforts can be exploited to our benefit.



.

 

[tweak89]

Here's what I don't get and never will. Ever since the implementation of fp+, a recurring complaint I read is that it requires too much planning and it kills spontaneity.

Since when has a WDW vacation ever been one that could be done without heavy planning? One of the tenets of having a successful vacation at WDW has always been- plan, plan, and then plan more. For veterans, it does get to a point where you know the ropes and it's easier, but for a newbie- if you just walk up to the gates, buy a ticket and walk in with no previous planning- your trip is probably not going to be great and you'll probably end up not liking WDW very much. This has been true since day 1.

We've had to plan adr's in advance for a long time. Reservations- especially if you're staying onsite, have to be made pretty far in advance. Special ticket events- OMG, best get those bought the second they become available. SWW fan? Good heavens, they start planning their days the day the current one ends plotting strategies and what if's. I'm already seeing posts about MVMCP and the F&W festival! WDW is extremely popular. If you want to go and enjoy it to it's fullest, you better plan. Nothing new here.

So the idea that somehow, because now you get the opportunity to sync your ride options with all these other activities you planned ahead for, the spontaneity is gone, always puzzles me.

I fully understand the frustration of those who knew legacy fp inside and out- who loved to re-ride certain rides many times a day. We've been known to do it ourselves a few times. It was a fun thing to do and they want it back. But other than those rare times when the park isn't crowded and you get to ride, get off and ride again...it's gone and it's not coming back. You can still visit WDW with no planning at all and your trip will probably be just as successful as it would've been had you done that under legacy fp, because with no planning you wouldn't have known what that was or how to use it either.

And that's my rant for the day. Thanks, I feel better now.

I agree 100% about the fact that a proper (as far as getting the most out of your stay) WDW vacation requires planning. For the way I enjoy the parks (we don't do ADR's, and try, not always successfully, stick to our daily plan) it appears that it will seriously affect our ability to change plans on the fly as we are now "stuck" with a certain park for a set amount of time to take advantage of our FP+ advance reservations. I've made some adjustments to what I would normally plan for in hopes to mitigate this. This March will be our first trip with FP+ and whether or not it ends up working for us will be based on how WE feel about the overall experience. If it's the same or better as our previous visits, then of course it's a success. If we end up riding/seeing less it will be a failure FOR US regardless of what anyone else experience might have been. My experience will be based on what I want to get out of our visit just as the success/failure of a different guests trip will be judged on the goals they had for THEIR trip.

I don't know what the solution is, but it's clear that this system doesn't work for everyone to their satisfaction. I think the big problem here (on this board) is that people seem to take it personally just because someone likes/dislikes the current system. No ones OPINIONS can be wrong because they are just that. But, it is amusing to see the same few people taking over just about every FP+ related thread.

 

[disndatworld]

One more obvious (to me) reason to build MDE & FP+ which is all system/software controlled process with RFID technology tying a human being to the experience: Ticket Tiering. The day will come when WDW will tier the guest theme-park experience based on prices. I know this has come up before, and people say this and that about Mr. Walt Disney's vision... but this has nothing to do with that.

Nobody will ever even know if you are a platinum theme-park user. You are in the FP line just like they are, except instead of getting 3 FP, you get 4, or 5, or 10. They already offer VIP tours which can be purchased. I realize the current VIP experience is hosted, but I just saw the way a party was treating the VIP host last week that I was in line with: they could have cared less about him. They bought it for the attractions.

In 2015 you don't own a multi-billion dollar asset like the WDW complex without figuring out the maximum way to monetize it. And offering tiered pricing experiences gives them access to every economic class of consumer. And you won't even be able to tell which one is on the basic plan vs. platinum plan. Everybody is wearing the same bracelet.

 

[MrInfinity]

Here we go again with legacy being portrayed as a system that only uber users accessed!

Flicx pls tell me how many people you think used FP-. If a typical FP user would pull 5. (some 10, some 3, but say 5 on average). With two rides that combined can handle 30,000 ridings, with 15,000 of them being on the FP- system, how many people can pull on average, 5 PF... The answer is 3,000. Out of 40,000 guests. Really. If you disagree w this, show me the math.

The constant argument against FP+ is "we used to get more than 3". Ok. How many. 5? On average? Add it up. How many can, and did, pull 5. Very few.

 

[BradChristian]

I'm not going to try to say that FP+ makes money, because I have no way to know for sure.

However, aren't they advertising MM+ as a whole, with FP+ as a component? Most of the marketing I've seen has been more focused on the Magicbands. Once you book your trip they feature FP+ in the booklets they send out, but haven't they always sent out print media after booking? I have always been impressed with their marketing, I can't begin to imagine the kind of budget it takes, but does anyone know for sure how much more FP+ is costing in that department?

I guess since they have added it to ads where they hardly ever talked about FP- it has had an impact, but in the larger context of MM+ I wonder if the impact is significant.

I was thinking about the marketing side... I realized that FP+ promotes positive word of mouth (the best kind of marketing) -

Since making my FP+ selections... I have found myself showing friends my app and my selections. Each one is accompanied by beautiful pictures of Peter Pan, SDMT, Space, and Be Our Guest.

With paper fast passes... People sometimes saved unused ones for scrapbooks, but that is about it. People are collecting MagicBands because the Pin Traders are starting to get old - Think 1996 olympic pins...

It really is bringing Disney to the front when it comes to having a Web 2.0 strategy... Pretty soon we will be seeing people get the option to share their FP+ selections with their friends on facebook. I'm sure they are considering giving you a 'magic' additional mobile fastpass when you share it on twitter.

The age of social media is changing everything

 

[MrInfinity]

All of this makes sense except the assertion of profit. How did this scenario generate income? 9 rides were taken over the span of 340 minutes in each scenario. Who was spending more money in scenario #2? Not the headline commando. He was either in line for 240 minutes, or, more likely, out riding other rides. Or if he is Laketravis, he left the park and is spending the afternoon in Universal.

Good point! They "lose" the commando. This guest is now either waiting for his rides, or leaving (Lake) or riding something else. This was never a profitable guest to start with. Those other 4 guests tho, saved 40 min each, and WILL do a combination of many things... from riding other rides, to eating , to swimming , to buying an extra drink at the pool, to mini-golfing cuz they have extra time. They will not all spend more, but some of them, will. It doesn't take "all" spending more to make "some" spending more a major increase in profit.

 

[Hokie2000]

I was thinking about the marketing side... I realized that FP+ promotes positive word of mouth (the best kind of marketing) -

Since making my FP+ selections... I have found myself showing friends my app and my selections. Each one is accompanied by beautiful pictures of Peter Pan, SDMT, Space, and Be Our Guest.

With paper fast passes... People sometimes saved unused ones for scrapbooks, but that is about it. People are collecting MagicBands because the Pin Traders are starting to get old - Think 1996 olympic pins...

It really is bringing Disney to the front when it comes to having a Web 2.0 strategy... Pretty soon we will be seeing people get the option to share their FP+ selections with their friends on facebook. I'm sure they are considering giving you a 'magic' additional mobile fastpass when you share it on twitter.

The age of social media is changing everything

I hadn't thought of that, but it definitely makes sense. Although if they make me join Twitter for a FP+ I am going to be very put out! Too far, Disney!!!! Haha, j/k

 

[Laketravis]

Good point! They "lose" the commando. This guest is now either waiting for his rides, or leaving (Lake) or riding something else. This was never a profitable guest to start with..

Wrong. Suffice it to say we have been loyal, locked-in, extremely profitable guests for decades. And if I have to be labeled as a "commando" then I'm minor league compared to many. The fact is that once you use the three FP's you are allocated each day, WDW theme parks are on the same level as any other in terms of queues and I can either wait in line for Figment or I can hop over to Universal and wait in line for Harry Potter.

In fact, maybe WDW should just buy Universal, turn them into WDW's fifth and sixth gate, extend HogWart's Express to merge with the monorail, and include the two additional parks as a new Park Hopper tier.

Yeah, then I wouldn't need a MagicBand AND a Universal Ticket. I'm calling Staggs right now..........

 

[ArwenMarie]

I think this comes down to the old FP- could not be monetized. It provided a benefit only to that guest who would try to use it. New FP+ can be sold. Disney can instantly change the allocations, know what park you'll be in 2 months in advance, know where you go in a day, it can give out extras to sell Deluxes, it can do them as perks, it is just so... easily monetized. Not to mention, a print-and-ticket system is so dated and wasteful. Just like every company in the world wants to go digital on everything since maintaining printers is a waste, Disney should too.

Remember it's not really about the altruistic reasons for getting each guest on a ride... it's because getting each guest on a ride leads to an overall higher satisfaction level and more free time that results in incremental spending.

Exactly! FP+ is a profitable system. FP- made nothing, but cost a lot. FP+ makes you not just pick 7 days to be in Florida, but pick 7 days, and mentally embrace being at a particular park and riding particular rides. This makes people get excited not just about "day 5 -- where we'll -- do something" but that they'll be "riding the new mine train and seeing Rapunzel" on this day. It causes the typical guest to lock themselves in mentally to their days. It's psychological. And it works.

Well, they haven't been able to monetize it really...not enough good ones to give out as perks or to sell. But yes, it's about locking people in, which is a form of monetization I guess.

If they had chosen to publicize paper FP, I would have been fine with getting less if it meant I could have my clean slate every day while actually down there.

 

[ArwenMarie]

One more obvious (to me) reason to build MDE & FP+ which is all system/software controlled process with RFID technology tying a human being to the experience: Ticket Tiering. The day will come when WDW will tier the guest theme-park experience based on prices. I know this has come up before, and people say this and that about Mr. Walt Disney's vision... but this has nothing to do with that.

Nobody will ever even know if you are a platinum theme-park user. You are in the FP line just like they are, except instead of getting 3 FP, you get 4, or 5, or 10. They already offer VIP tours which can be purchased. I realize the current VIP experience is hosted, but I just saw the way a party was treating the VIP host last week that I was in line with: they could have cared less about him. They bought it for the attractions.

I don't know about this. I thought the same thing, but I don't think they have the headliner capacity to do it. As you said, they already offer this, the VIP Tour. But they way they bundle it, it is a very expensive product, so they naturally limit the demand. (Assuming a family of four, 5 rides an hour, about $15 a ride). Even if you have a bigger group, it's the bundling that drives the price up, they aren't willing to sell FPs piecemeal.

I agree, I don't think anyone buys the VIP tour for the guide...that is just something WDW throws in to justify the exorbitant price. I would actually be more likely to buy the tour if I could walk around without the tour guide with my golden all-access FP. The tour guide might also serve to slow such groups down so people aren't running around like maniacs LOL.

 

[mom2rtk]

I don't know about this. I thought the same thing, but I don't think they have the headliner capacity to do it. As you said, they already offer this, the VIP Tour. But they way they bundle it, it is a very expensive product, so they naturally limit the demand. (Assuming a family of four, 5 rides an hour, about $15 a ride). Even if you have a bigger group, it's the bundling that drives the price up, they aren't willing to sell FPs piecemeal.

I agree, I don't think anyone buys the VIP tour for the guide...that is just something WDW throws in to justify the exorbitant price. I would actually be more likely to buy the tour if I could walk around without the tour guide with my golden all-access FP. The tour guide might also serve to slow such groups down so people aren't running around like maniacs LOL.

And are they adding enough attractions to do anything more than just keep even with attendance growth? If they ever want to monetize it without ticking off guests, they need to pick up the pace on new construction.

 

[JimmyV]

Is this true? Can you provide data? I have no idea. I'd guess it's around half. Quick google search. There are approx. 20,000 rooms on WDW prop. If they have an average of 4 people per room, and 90% fill, that is 72,000 people. How many ppl hit up Disney daily? 140,000? Ok, so around half.

It is generally understood that off site and local guests make up more than half of the attendance. 90% occupancy is too high and 4 people per room is too high. Actual numbers are closer to 85% (in a good year, and I think Disney is on a string of good years) and 3.2 people per room. Maybe "throwaway rooms" cause the occupancy percentage to go up, but the unoccupied rooms drives the per person number down.