How Worried Should We Be?

[TLSnell1981]

If I dined at a restaurant it is very likely I had enough contact with the person to warrant getting tested.

I’ve dined out several times. Contact was very brief plus the servers (and customers) distance, wear masks and gloves. We also make reservations and/or provide our name upon check in.

 

[disneychrista]

I’ve dined out several times. Contact was very brief plus the servers distance, wear masks and gloves. We also make reservations and/or provide our name upon check in.

You have your comfort level. I have mine. That’s why I WON’T be dining in anytime soon.

 

[TLSnell1981]

You have your comfort level. I have mine. That’s why I WON’T be dining in anytime soon.

Probably a good call. I am comfortable using precautions in controlled settings but not in crowds.

 

[barkley]

Close contact generally means..less than 6 feet and interact more than 15 minutes with the infected person

nowhere have i seen anything that shows it takes 15 minutes of exposure to be infected. rather-like any virus if the manner of contact facilitates it spreading (a sneeze, a cough...so much as poorly executed hand washing techniques with hands used in the serving/preparing of another's food) it will spread.

less than 6 feet? um, let's see-restaurant servers, baristas, to-go windows at fast food, clerks at stores, bank tellers, barbers...none can facilitate a 6' distance and deliver customer service.

 

[sam_gordon]

We need the discernment to tell the difference if we're going to learn anything from the massive experiment being conducted by leaving reopening pace and process up to individual states.

AND the data. My state (KY) gives daily numbers of tests, positives, hospitalization, and deaths. BUT, no where on their website can you see the daily numbers, just the totals. I'd love to be able to see the % positive, along with daily change in # hospitalized and daily deaths. I don't feel like tracking it all myself (and I'd be way behind if I start now). I know the information is out there, I just don't know where to find it.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/ has the data, but they're 4 days behind. I need that up to the minute data darnit!

 

[Monykalyn]

AND the data. My state (KY) gives daily numbers of tests, positives, hospitalization, and deaths. BUT, no where on their website can you see the daily numbers, just the totals. I'd love to be able to see the % positive, along with daily change in # hospitalized and daily deaths. I don't feel like tracking it all myself (and I'd be way behind if I start now). I know the information is out there, I just don't know where to find it.

https://covid19.healthdata.org/ has the data, but they're 4 days behind. I need that up to the minute data darnit!

https://www.statnews.com/feature/coronavirus/covid-19-tracker/Try here

https://rt.live/Or here

 

[TLSnell1981]

nowhere have i seen anything that shows it takes 15 minutes of exposure to be infected. rather-like any virus if the manner of contact facilitates it spreading (a sneeze, a cough...so much as poorly executed hand washing techniques with hands used in the serving/preparing of another's food) it will spread.

less than 6 feet? um, let's see-restaurant servers, baristas, to-go windows at fast food, clerks at stores, bank tellers, barbers...none can facilitate a 6' distance and deliver customer service.

Servers standing 6 feet away, wearing a mask and gloves while taking my order and taking mere seconds to drop my food on the table? I'm more comfortable with that than going to the grocery.

Contract tracing...


Summary of COVID-19 Specific Practices

• Contact tracing will be conducted for close contacts (any individual within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes) of laboratory-confirmed or probable COVID-19 patients.
• Remote communications for the purposes of case investigation and contact tracing should be prioritized; in-person communication may be considered only after remote options have been exhausted.
• Testing is recommended for all close contacts of confirmed or probable COVID-19 patients.
• Those contacts who test positive (symptomatic or asymptomatic) should be managed as a confirmed COVID-19 case.
• Asymptomatic contacts testing negative should self-quarantine for 14 days from their last exposure (i.e., close encounter with confirmed or probable COVID-19 case)
• If testing is not available, symptomatic close contacts should self-isolate and be managed as a probable COVID-19 case.
• If testing is not available, asymptomatic close contacts should self-quarantine and be monitored for 14 days after their last exposure, with linkage to clinical care for those who develop symptoms.

For COVID-19, a close contact is defined as any individual who was within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ing/contact-tracing-plan/contact-tracing.html

 

[wenrob]

nowhere have i seen anything that shows it takes 15 minutes of exposure to be infected. rather-like any virus if the manner of contact facilitates it spreading (a sneeze, a cough...so much as poorly executed hand washing techniques with hands used in the serving/preparing of another's food) it will spread.

less than 6 feet? um, let's see-restaurant servers, baristas, to-go windows at fast food, clerks at stores, bank tellers, barbers...none can facilitate a 6' distance and deliver customer service.

Your respiratory tract and your digestive tract are two different things. It’s highly unlikely to be transmitted through eating.

 

[barkley]

Servers standing 6 feet away, wearing a mask and gloves while taking my order and taking mere seconds to drop my food on the table? I'm more comfortable with that than going to the grocery.

Contract tracing...


Summary of COVID-19 Specific Practices

• Contact tracing will be conducted for close contacts (any individual within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes) of laboratory-confirmed or probable COVID-19 patients.
• Remote communications for the purposes of case investigation and contact tracing should be prioritized; in-person communication may be considered only after remote options have been exhausted.
• Testing is recommended for all close contacts of confirmed or probable COVID-19 patients.
• Those contacts who test positive (symptomatic or asymptomatic) should be managed as a confirmed COVID-19 case.
• Asymptomatic contacts testing negative should self-quarantine for 14 days from their last exposure (i.e., close encounter with confirmed or probable COVID-19 case)
• If testing is not available, symptomatic close contacts should self-isolate and be managed as a probable COVID-19 case.
• If testing is not available, asymptomatic close contacts should self-quarantine and be monitored for 14 days after their last exposure, with linkage to clinical care for those who develop symptoms.

For COVID-19, a close contact is defined as any individual who was within 6 feet of an infected person for at least 15 minutes

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/201...ing/contact-tracing-plan/contact-tracing.html

tables at restaurants are 6' apart here so a server standing 6' feet from my table will be on top of another patron's table so do we each take turns and exit the restaurant each time a server goes to an adjacent table to ensure our safety?

contact tracing is a great idea but if it's not being done how do those of us who fall under this criteria (had our hair done, met with our banker...then there's a diagnosis of that person) know to follow the guidelines above unless there are public identification of impacted businesses? the only paperwork that's being filled out in my state is by businesses that require customers to sign releases of liability to enter (casinos, hotels, some restaurants...). no lists are compiled with our names, contact info to let us know. just for their records in case it is later learned and a lawsuit is threatened.

Your respiratory tract and your digestive tract are two different things. It’s highly unlikely to be transmitted through eating.

yes but if a server. whomever dishes the meal, empties the dishwasher...is ill and does not take the proper steps in maintaining cleanliness it can be transmitted to the serving plate and then by my hand to my eyes, nose or mouth. it commonly spreads through surfaces contaminated with respiratory droplets containing the virus. Someone touches that surface and can transmit the virus to themselves by touching their mouth, nose, or eyes or by transmitting it to someone else by touching them. i worked enough restaurants in college to know that a cook or bus boy sneezing in the kitchen is not going to get all the dishes and prep areas within a 6' radius shut down and disinfected.


some people are willing to go out and do these things. i'm not comfortable.

 

[wenrob]

tables at restaurants are 6' apart here so a server standing 6' feet from my table will be on top of another patron's table so do we each take turns and exit the restaurant each time a server goes to an adjacent table to ensure our safety?

contact tracing is a great idea but if it's not being done how do those of us who fall under this criteria (had our hair done, met with our banker...then there's a diagnosis of that person) know to follow the guidelines above unless there are public identification of impacted businesses? the only paperwork that's being filled out in my state is by businesses that require customers to sign releases of liability to enter (casinos, hotels, some restaurants...). no lists are compiled with our names, contact info to let us know. just for their records in case it is later learned and a lawsuit is threatened.



yes but if a server. whomever dishes the meal, empties the dishwasher...is ill and does not take the proper steps in maintaining cleanliness it can be transmitted to the serving plate and then by my hand to my eyes, nose or mouth. it commonly spreads through surfaces contaminated with respiratory droplets containing the virus. Someone touches that surface and can transmit the virus to themselves by touching their mouth, nose, or eyes or by transmitting it to someone else by touching them. i worked enough restaurants in college to know that a cook or bus boy sneezing in the kitchen is not going to get all the dishes and prep areas within a 6' radius shut down and disinfected.


some people are willing to go out and do these things. i'm not comfortable.

I understand if you’re not comfortable and I get it but it would really have to be a perfect storm. (and I was raised in kitchens so I know the culture, if you can move you better show and let the chef send you home) Someone would have to sneeze/cough/whatever, it would have to get on the plate, survive being touched by the cook, the server, having food put on it, heated drawers and holding stations with heat lamps. Then you would have to touch it in the exact spot and get enough of it waaaaay deep into your nose or in your eyes. You’re also, I assume, using your napkin and further breaking things down. Not that it can’t happen but if you contract the virus eating out it’s more likely going to come from your server than your food.

 

[Christine]

With the talk about dining in, it's probably an appropriate time to trot out the restaurant study that was done in China (now posted on CDC website) where they show the contact tracing on how several people were infected from dining in a restaurant.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

 

[RamblingMad]

With the talk about dining in, it's probably an appropriate time to trot out the restaurant study that was done in China (now posted on CDC website) where they show the contact tracing on how several people were infected from dining in a restaurant.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

We're doomed. Time to break out the hazmat suit for dining. It'll replace the tux and bow tie for formal dining.

 

[sam_gordon]

https://www.statnews.com/feature/coronavirus/covid-19-tracker/Try here

https://rt.live/Or here

Thanks. Not too bad.

 

[maddiel]

And that's a big part of why both the WHO and the CDC have developed credibility problems - they're cherry picking the science based on political concerns. Like when they made that stupid, not-backed-by-science comment about how there "might not" be immunity to COVID, not because of any science showing there isn't but out of concern for the political/social/economic ramifications of the "immunity card" idea being floated at the time.

Hanlon's razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think the WHO at least is suffering from a stupidity problem, or more accurately, a problem with communicating what scientists mean to the general public (and the press!)

When WHO said there was no evidence of immunity to COVID for recovered patienets, what the scientists meant "we don't have evidence that there will definitely be immunity to COVID yet " which got interpreted to mean there is a likelihood that there will not be any immunity to COVID at all.

The same thing seems to have happened with the articles this week that said asymptomatic transmission was very rare. What I have concluded that they meant to say was that asymptomatic transmission is an uncommon way to transmit the virus in comparison to symptomatic and pre-symptomatic transmission. And since we can't determine until after the fact whether someone is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic, it's not really a helpful piece of information anyway.

It's pretty typical that when budgets start to get thin,"unnecessary" positions get cut from organizations. I'll bet the WHO has been shrinking their budget on communications (it's a typical area to cut first) and it's left them struggling to communicate messages accurately.

M.

 

[ronandannette]

You could come into contact with an infected person anywhere. Why would they need to identify a specific business or individual to the public? The business will be shut down and any necessary cleaning performed. Anyone one in close contact will be notified, quarantined and tested if the develop any symptoms. Although many states allow anybody to be tested...regardless.

I got an interesting e-mail today from a national grocery chain announcing one of their staff in a local store had tested positive. They did the contact tracing via the customer loyalty cards that were scanned there during a particular period. It would equal thousands of shoppers - these stores are huge; like something between a WalMart Super-Centre and a Costco. I'll monitor my health but am not even slightly worried; in that setting I would have had to be particularly unlucky to come in contact with that employee.

 

[TLSnell1981]

With the talk about dining in, it's probably an appropriate time to trot out the restaurant study that was done in China (now posted on CDC website) where they show the contact tracing on how several people were infected from dining in a restaurant.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0764_article

I believe that's why distancing was increased from <1 meter and temperature was acknowledged as a possible factor in transmission. Although, I think the same issues are present in grocery stores...except more people likely closer together.

 

[disneychrista]

I got an interesting e-mail today from a national grocery chain announcing one of their staff in a local store had tested positive.

I am guessing they didn't ID what the person does for the grocery store. I would feel different if it was a checker (which technically they would now if I checked out with them) vs a stocker.

 

[ronandannette]

I am guessing they didn't ID what the person does for the grocery store. I would feel different if it was a checker (which technically they would now if I checked out with them) vs a stocker.

I don't have it here in front of me but no, I don't think they did. This store isn't renowned for it's service and there are very few visible employees on the floor. There are 10 check-out lines open at all times with the plexi-glass walls up, plus self-check, which I use quite often and may well have used that day. TBH, I don't even remember when I was there but it definitely wasn't in the last week. If I somehow manage to contract Covid from that source, I'm buying a lottery ticket.

 

[Colleen27]

Hanlon's razor says "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." I think the WHO at least is suffering from a stupidity problem, or more accurately, a problem with communicating what scientists mean to the general public (and the press!)

When WHO said there was no evidence of immunity to COVID for recovered patienets, what the scientists meant "we don't have evidence that there will definitely be immunity to COVID yet " which got interpreted to mean there is a likelihood that there will not be any immunity to COVID at all.

The same thing seems to have happened with the articles this week that said asymptomatic transmission was very rare. What I have concluded that they meant to say was that asymptomatic transmission is an uncommon way to transmit the virus in comparison to symptomatic and pre-symptomatic transmission. And since we can't determine until after the fact whether someone is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic, it's not really a helpful piece of information anyway.

It's pretty typical that when budgets start to get thin,"unnecessary" positions get cut from organizations. I'll bet the WHO has been shrinking their budget on communications (it's a typical area to cut first) and it's left them struggling to communicate messages accurately.

M.

Yeah, I don't really think it is malice even when things have gotten a bit more political than perhaps they should have. I think it has been done with good intentions - holding off on a masks requirement over concerns over supply, for example, or discouraging immunity passports because of both the scientific uncertainty about duration of immunity and the political concern about creating a two-tier society - but still opens a door to doubt about the nature of their recommendations.

And some of it has certainly been, as you said, poor messaging/communication rather than any actual problem with the science, which I think is a pretty common problem when trying to condense complex and still-developing science into content accessible to the general public even under the best of conditions. Add in the level of fear and anxiety surrounding this situation and it was bound to happen.

 

[Christine]

I believe that's why distancing was increased from <1 meter and temperature was acknowledged as a possible factor in transmission. Although, I think the same issues are present in grocery stores...except more people likely closer together.

I think the helpful part about the grocery store is that you can be in and out of there quickly if you need to and you aren't stationary/sustained for an hour or more. You're moving around the store.