How does vandalism and looting accomplish anything???

[Lisa loves Pooh]

The thing that is really getting on my nerves about all of the reporting is the focus on " an unarmed man" and why he was not shot in the arm/ leg ect ect . FYI : a UNARMED person can kill you as fast as someone with a weapon.The officer was already hit, if the guy had got close enough he could have taken the gun or one of the other things on the gunbelt and used it against the officer then we would be reading about another LEO killed in the line of duty.
The police do not shoot to " wound" ever... Someone that is wounded can kill you, a women can kill you, a child can kill you and someone with a mental illness can kill you .. Armed or unarmed.
I am sure that when all the evidence comes out there will be some that will not agree and there will always will be some that will be unhappy no matter what.

There are those who believe that Police are only entitled to respond with equal or lesser power than what their suspect has. No gun, no justified shots ever.

 

[rickybobby]

The thing that is really getting on my nerves about all of the reporting is the focus on " an unarmed man" and why he was not shot in the arm/ leg ect ect . FYI : a UNARMED person can kill you as fast as someone with a weapon.The officer was already hit, if the guy had got close enough he could have taken the gun or one of the other things on the gunbelt and used it against the officer then we would be reading about another LEO killed in the line of duty.
The police do not shoot to " wound" ever... Someone that is wounded can kill you, a women can kill you, a child can kill you and someone with a mental illness can kill you .. Armed or unarmed.
I am sure that when all the evidence comes out there will be some that will not agree and there will always will be some that will be unhappy no matter what.

Another thing that has not really been debated here is that unless the officer had xray vision, he had no reason to believe that the suspect might not be carrying a weapon.

 

[rickybobby]

I think this is another chicken or egg scenario though, with a little you can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink thrown in.

Are the students failing because the schools don't care or are the schools failing because the students don't care?

I've always though getting an education was 90% self motivation and 10% teacher inspiration. Until they can convince the students that an eduction is vital to success in life they are fighting a losing battle. I think the belief that the world is against black people is ultimately a big part of the reason so many black people give up and ultimately do fail. They don't believe they have a future so they don't put in the work to better their future.

Throwing more money at the problem is ineffective. UNTIL THERE IS MOTIVATION TO MAKE THEIR LIVES BETTER, POOR PEOPLE WILL REMAIN POOR.

 

[rickybobby]

I don't remember anyone saying violence is Ok (it wouldn't completely surprise me if someone did though). Posters have certainly said people should not be protesting and see no difference between protestors and the looters. There has also been many posts defending the way the police have been handling the situation. I'm not talking about the shooting but the aftermath.

We get to play Monday morning quarterback. Tell me what you would have done had you been tasked to defend the city that would have improved the situation.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I don't know if in Missouri it's the same as Alabama but here a child in a failing school gets to pick whatever passing school in the district they wanted to attend. I believe at most they should go to the next closest passing school. Their was a child that was transported from the northern part of Mobile county past dozens of other schools to attend the southern most school in the county. An entire bus was used to transport one child over 30 miles one way, that's just ridiculous.

The little school my youngest goes to has a lot of kids who should be in the in-town school & it's allowed because that school lost it's A rating. But that's within district. The entire Normandy district has lost it's accreditation.

When I was in HS, we competed against Normady a lot in band comps. They always had a great show & a fabulous percussion section. Consistently one of the top 10 bands in the state. Wonder when it all fell apart.

 

[Viva Las Disney]

It is clearly only a problem and always racist when a black man is gunned down by an officer and this rioting (as opposed to peaceful protest which also occurred) was warranted.

This is troubling to me also but probably can be attributed to different races having different trust levels of the police and the courts.

I think most white people trust the system so we assume the officer was just doing his job unless proven guilty, when it's questionable we trust the courts to fairly take care of it. I think most black people distrust the system so they assume the officer acted wrongly unless proven innocent, in cases of question they don't trust the courts to take care of it.

Whether those beliefs are valid or not is debatable but I think that's the reasoning behind the different reactions to very similar situations.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Article about Mike Brown's high school and how it demonstrates the inequalities in education. So why is it so hard for this community? Well--check this out.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5682852

1. 83% are eligible for free or reduce lunch (so the area that feeds into this school is poor)

2. Drop our rates are "well above" state average drop out levels 53% graduation rate compared to state average of 86%. National average is 80%.

3. Suspension rates are "well above" state averages. 60% of the black students had at least 1 in or out of school suspension.

4. Normandy High school is noted for high rates of violence. (Considered most dangerous school in the area--might explain the suspension rate.)

5. State labeled Normandy a failed district due to low standardized test scores.

6. In this state, schools that are low rated receive the least amount of money.

7. Low participation in competitive classes. Over 1000 students, only 4 in calculus. Less than 1%. National average is 16%.

8. 50% of students take ACt with average score of 16.8. State average is 21.6.

9. Only 20% to got to college compared to state average of 37%.

On the flip side:

among 25 & older, 88% of Ferguson residents have a diploma.
23% have a bachelor's or higher
Unemployment is ~14%
Median income is ~$35,000



This isn't a high income area, but it's also not one of those neighborhoods one needs to "escape".

 

[livie1205]

Another thing that has not really been debated here is that unless the officer had xray vision, he had no reason to believe that the suspect might not be carrying a weapon.

That is true, IF this was someone who already hit him why would he assume he may not have a weapon. The fact that the guy did not have a weapon does not mean " dont shoot" IF he had already used his hands as weapons and its looking more likely the officer had a injury near his eye so that has him on the offensive as it is..
I know people are discussing how MANY shots but google police shootings and you will see no matter the weapon it is not uncommon to shoot many shots. Its training , training and more training. I implore people who may not understand these things to go to your local agency and do a few ride a longs so you can get a better idea of what goes on and to see these men and women are just like you.They love, they take care of their family and they watch the backs of their zone partner.. Its scary stuff but they glady do it so they can protect and serve.all on the lowest pay you can imagine taking care of family on. But they keep doing it for the " good days" "the thank you's"

 

[Viva Las Disney]

This isn't a high income area, but it's also not one of those neighborhoods one needs to "escape".

I was talking to a friend that grew up in St Louis the other day and when I asked him about the area he said it's not bad but you'd never catch him there after dark.

Would you agree?

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I was talking to a friend that grew up in St Louis the other day and when I asked him about the area he said it's not bad but you'd never catch him there after dark.

Would you agree?

My wife would agree. My grandpa lived not too far from there for years though, so I'm a little more comfortable there. There definitely are many places in STL I wouldn't be in after dark & even a couple I wouldn't be in during the day. Never considered Ferguson such a place though.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

On the flip side:

among 25 & older, 88% of Ferguson residents have a diploma.
23% have a bachelor's or higher
Unemployment is ~14%
Median income is ~$35,000



This isn't a high income area, but it's also not one of those neighborhoods one needs to "escape".

If that was our high school, I would not send my kid there with those stats especially of the above of loss of accreditation.

That said--I would be interested in the demographics of the residents whose children would be zoned for Normandy if they has a student of that age.

Around here, as an average our community stat would be one number and not awful--but there are pockets of poverty. So I'm wondering what the stats are for the pocket that feeds into Normandy if barely half the kids graduate.

 

[TLSnell1981]

Another thing that has not really been debated here is that unless the officer had xray vision, he had no reason to believe that the suspect might not be carrying a weapon.

Don't forget the crystal ball..

 

[sunshinehighway]

We get to play Monday morning quarterback. Tell me what you would have done had you been tasked to defend the city that would have improved the situation.

Perhaps if they had shown more respect for the community from the beginning they wouldn't have been in that position. If they hasn't fanned the flame when things had started to get under control, things likely would have quieted down sooner.

 

[asta]

That is true, IF this was someone who already hit him why would he assume he may not have a weapon. The fact that the guy did not have a weapon does not mean " dont shoot" IF he had already used his hands as weapons and its looking more likely the officer had a injury near his eye so that has him on the offensive as it is..
I know people are discussing how MANY shots but google police shootings and you will see no matter the weapon it is not uncommon to shoot many shots. Its training , training and more training. I implore people who may not understand these things to go to your local agency and do a few ride a longs so you can get a better idea of what goes on and to see these men and women are just like you.They love, they take care of their family and they watch the backs of their zone partner.. Its scary stuff but they glady do it so they can protect and serve.all on the lowest pay you can imagine taking care of family on. But they keep doing it for the " good days" "the thank you's"

Good post

 

[rickybobby]

Perhaps if they had shown more respect for the community from the beginning they wouldn't have been in that position. If they hasn't fanned the flame when things had started to get under control, things likely would have quieted down sooner.

So even with the luxury of hindsight, you as the police chief would have still had riots on your hands. "More respect for the community" is simply hyperbole.
What exactly did they do to fan the flames?

 

[sunshinehighway]

So even with the luxury of hindsight, you as the police chief would have still had riots on your hands. "More respect for the community" is simply hyperbole.
What exactly did they do to fan the flames?

I wouldn't have left a dead body uncovered in the middle of the street for hours during the day. I wouldn't have shown up to a protest (before there was any violence) and set snarling, barking dogs at the front of the line. I wouldn't have gone against the recommendations of other law enforcement, including the DOJ to release a video which would likely just flare the flames which were dying down. I certainly wouldn't have officers shoving, tear gassing, arresting and threatening to shoot reporters.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I wouldn't have left a dead body uncovered in the middle of the street for hours during the day. I wouldn't have shown up to a protest (before there was any violence) and set snarling, barking dogs at the front of the line. I wouldn't have gone against the recommendations of other law enforcement, including the DOJ to release a video which would likely just flare the flames which were dying down. I certainly wouldn't have officers shoving, tear gassing, arresting and threatening to shoot reporters.

I think that video could have gone either way.

 

[Viva Las Disney]

So even with the luxury of hindsight, you as the police chief would have still had riots on your hands. "More respect for the community" is simply hyperbole.
What exactly did they do to fan the flames?

I don't think anything would have prevented the confrontations between protestors and police but I think they could have prevented the burning and looting if they had a larger police presence the first night. They would have needed a crystal ball to know it was going to blow up like it did though.

I think the biggest mistake the police made was leaving the body in the street for 4-5 hours. I'm not sure if removing the body earlier would have calmed the situation but it certainly didn't help to have a dead kid lying in the street for everyone to see for a few hours while everyone speculated what happened and anger grew.

I think the 2nd biggest mistake they made was the night when Capt Johnson took over and allowed looting with trying to arrest the looters. I think that sent a really bad message to people in surrounding areas that it was a free for all and probably brought a lot of opportunistic criminals to the area.

Overall I think Capt Johnson has done a good job but I think he made a bad call the first night and it's made matters worse ever since.

I can't think of a time a city dealt with a riot (whether sport related, college related, police related, etc) and wasn't heavily criticized for how they handled it after the fact. I'm not sure there is a correct way to handle a riot because they are all different.

 

[Viva Las Disney]

I wouldn't have left a dead body uncovered in the middle of the street for hours during the day. I wouldn't have shown up to a protest (before there was any violence) and set snarling, barking dogs at the front of the line. I wouldn't have gone against the recommendations of other law enforcement, including the DOJ to release a video which would likely just flare the flames which were dying down. I certainly wouldn't have officers shoving, tear gassing, arresting and threatening to shoot reporters.

I don't think they had a choice on the video, I think it was a freedom of information request from the media. I do wonder if the law influenced when it was released though, if it was purely a police choice with no legal reason I agree it was a bad decision.

I also agree the police tone was wrong. I think a big police presence was necessary but they took such a confrontational stance I think it just escalated the tension.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What is typical protocol for a police shooting resulting in death of the person shot by police?

1. Cover body? (Do they carry something in squad cars for this purpose?)
2. Move body? (Who moves it? How long is reasonable for the coroner to snow up?)
3. If body is moved at what point can it be? (Right away? Or after pertinent photos and measurements and whatever else crime scene investigators do to assess a scene?)

I ask for this reason--

What was a REASONABLE expectation given standard protocol in a police shooting compared to say a situation where they discover a homocide and have to process the scene.

Was this intentional disrespect? Or expected because that is how it happens.

I did see photos of Mike Brown's body being covered--or so I thought--at some point.