High School:Good Grades vs. Challenging Classes

[punkin]

Got a question that someone on here might know, that might help many of us. If a kid is a B-C student in French II and III, and French after III is considered AP, should they continue in to French IV? Does that give any extra oomph to a college app, having that French IV?

I can't answer your question, but in DD's school, AP French is after French V. So, you take 5 years of French before taking the AP course.

 

[Longsx3]

Got a question that someone on here might know, that might help many of us. If a kid is a B-C student in French II and III, and French after III is considered AP, should they continue in to French IV? Does that give any extra oomph to a college app, having that French IV?

I would not encourage a child who is a B-C student to continue because of the repercussions it could have on their GPA. Foreign language gets progressively more difficult IMO and I am not sure French IV would garner much from potential Colleges.

 

[taximomfor4]

I would not encourage a child who is a B-C student to continue because of the repercussions it could have on their GPA. Foreign language gets progressively more difficult IMO and I am not sure French IV would garner much from potential Colleges.

thanks. She swears her guidance counselor and the french teachers are telling the kids it's mostly review. (BTW, this is technically French V or VI or something. They don't count the 2 yrs in Jr High in their numbering of the levels).

I have advised her to perhaps take Spanish I, instead. She needs one more class, basically, and is being "talked into" continuing in French. Since her cumulative GPA is hovering just BARELY above 3.0, I think she needs to take something she has more chance of a higher grade in. Plus, these days around here, Spanish can be useful. And with some experience in romance languages from the French, Spanish should be easier.

 

[punkin]

BTW, this is technically French V or VI or something. They don't count the 2 yrs in Jr High in their numbering of the levels.

Ahh, I get it now.

I see nothing wrong with starting another language. The more she knows, the better for her in the future.

 

[SorcererDonald16]

Got a question that someone on here might know, that might help many of us. If a kid is a B-C student in French II and III, and French after III is considered AP, should they continue in to French IV? Does that give any extra oomph to a college app, having that French IV?

It depends on the school he or she wants to go to. Some colleges require 4 years of a FL in order to be exempt from their FL requirement during college. Some also put a high importance on the student having at least 4 years of a FL. You need to research what individual schools think about that to have a better idea.

Another huge help is to apply early decision if you child really wants just that one school. This does make a difference.

I would also like to point out that we found that in most of the colleges that we looked at three years ago, there are more females on campuses than males. In order to keep a more balanced campus, many schools will admit a male with lower stats than a female. It may not seem fair, but females are somewhat a victim of their own success. For many years the message has been that you have to try harder if you are female. This has resulted in a more competitive pool of female candidates than male candidates.

Early decision is absolutely the way to go if you know where you want to attend and that college offers that option. Generally speaking, it's a bit easier to get admitted that way.

The second point is also correct. One local college operates on a points system, where each admissions category can earn you a certain number of points. The people with the highest totals get accepted. It's mostly attended by females, and a few years back they decided they wanted to change their demos. So, they started to give "bonus" points to you if you were a male. That's the way it is for a lot of schools now, whether it be to balance out gender or race demos.

Thanks! I have already been on College Confidential. Interesting place.

Yes, I have heard that competition is FIERCE this year. My dd's guidance counselor told me that 2-3 years ago, my dd would have "walked" into the schools she is applying to with no problem--with her very average GPA. Those schools are now denying her. Not even a deferral. I want to stress that I am talking about very average schools in Virginia. She didn't even *think* about applying to UVA or even Va Tech. Out of the questions. She's applied to places like Radford, Virginia Commonwealth, Old Dominion, etc. Schools historically set up for the average student. Our "reach" schools were George Mason and University of Mary Washington. The school that I thought she had the most chance at today was Old Dominion and that's not happening now.

It sucks when your co-worker just tells you a few days ago that *anybody" can get into ODU (as I said earlier, her dd's boyfriend was a very poor student last year but he got in--claims he didn't even fill out his application completely). Oh well.

VCU and ODU both turned her down? Generally speaking, yes, those are the two that have the reputation for taking "anyone." They must have a particularly tough application pool this year. Did she apply to places like CNU and Mary Baldwin? Is she involved in a decent amount of extracurriculars? Did she have reliable teachers write recommendation letters? Some colleges in VA are known for not bothering to even read them, but others place a high importance on them. Did she take the ACT and the SAT? I'm trying to figure out if the difference is just in the GPA or other areas as well, because it's not right that she's not getting in with harder classes if she only did slightly worse than her peers in easy classes.

I really hope this works out for her.

It is never better to take an easier courseload. Colleges do not care if you were valedictorian or whatever, they know that generally the kids who managed to get those levels of grades did so by taking classes that were beneath their level. I knew people who did this, taking art and home-ec specifically for the easy A. I knew people who went crying to our teachers when they were going to get a bad grade because it would ruin their chances of graduating perfect. I knew people who dragged their parents in to lobby on their behalf.

In my school the valedictorians and salutatorians were a joke. Everyone knew who the smart people were. They were the ones farther down in the class list who suffered through physics and AP calculus. They were the ones who took advanced biology and chemistry concurrently so that they could have the privilege of taking physics the following year.

Wow, that was completely different from my HS. You couldn't even get in the top 15 or so without having taken at least one AP course and almost all Honors courses. The colleges in this area do take into account whether someone is Val or Sal, but they also look at the actual courses. If it was all puff courses, then they'd be less likely to admit them. But the way the school systems here have it set up, it's impossible to graduate at the top without advanced courses.

I graduated first in my class and with straight As all 4 years. I took all Honors and AP classes, except for required classes that were automatically Level 2, and some electives that were also automatically Level 2. I took physics, Calculus, a lot of AP courses, 4 years of a foreign language, you name it. I took every tough course offered at the school except AP Art. The way it was set up, if you wanted to graduate at the top of your class, you were basically discouraged from taking any electives that you didn't need to graduate because they automatically dragged down your GPA. I took a few that I really wanted to take, but I did cut out others I would've liked to take and replaced them with more Honors classes that I didn't need. So, in other words, taking Home Ec or Computers or whatever else for an easy A in my case would've been useless; that A would've hurt my GPA, big time.

I can beat that. My dd's 10th grade PE teacher...
...
SHE FAILED HER PE FINAL. She swears she didn't. We tried again and again to reach the teacher, through the guidance counselor and directly. He didn't return our call till over a month later, and "doesn't have the exams anymore." So dd is stuck with an F on her final report card, in PE.

Was this this year? Sorry if I missed that point. That is when you go above the teacher and contact their corresponding administrator. No excuse for that. Period.

Thank you for posting this truth. The counselors always tell you that the colleges take the fact that the student took more challenging classes, but that is a lie. The colleges look at grades, class rank and test scores. I learned this when I worked at Brown.

This reality is something you really need to keep in mind before pushing your kid into those classes. Do NOT believe what the guidance counselors tell you.

Some colleges may mostly look at grades, rank, and test scores. But there are many that look at the types of classes you took. My college was one of the hardest to get into in the state. They point blank told us all that the difficulty of the courses mattered a lot. One Admissions Dean gave a presentation in one of my classes and years before during an Open House for potential students. Both times she said that if they saw a transcript with a very high GPA but mostly easy courses, they were very likely to go in the rejection pile, barring outstanding test scores or other factors. Some colleges also place a heavy importance on extracurriculars, recommendation letters, and/or admissions essays. It varies from school to school.

I agree that some school counselors (they shouldn't be called guidance counselors by any school any more; so frustrating some schools still call them this ) have no clue what they're doing. But I'm also a school counselor, and there are plenty of us who do actually have a clue. We get our information directly from the colleges. Many hold conferences and/or seminars for counselors to attend where they will tell us what they're looking for in applicants. That is particularly helpful. We can only pass along what we're told. Now if a college for some wacky reason is lying to us (which serves them no purpose, IMO), then naturally we're going to be passing along bad information.

How depressing. My DD is a Junior and taking some APs (1 last year and 2 this year). She is getting As and Bs. She did well on her SATs, but not exceptionally so. Yet, she is terrified of applying to college.

Has she taken the ACTs? Some schools (even some tougher ones) will take whichever score winds up being higher. There's a conversion scale where the ACT score is turned into an SAT equivalent score. Generally, a lot of students have a much easier time with the ACT than the SAT.

Make sure she is involved in at least a handful of activities, and think early about who she wants to write her recommendation letters. Exceptionally well written letters with examples of why she would be an assest to a college can be very helpful (i.e. a letter that says "She's very driven and organized" is NOT as good as a letter that says "She undertook a complicated research project on Subject X. She really showed her organizational skills when she.... and it showed how driven she was because....). Examples are your friend. Unfortunately too many teachers and such have no clue what a "good" recommendation letter is and just reiterate everything the college already knows based on the application itself. Good luck to your DD!

 

[Christine]

VCU and ODU both turned her down?

I have not heard back from VCU. But ODU turned her down. ODU is supposed to be easier than VCU so not much hope for VCU. Many of her friends have been turned down for VCU this year.

Did she apply to places like CNU and Mary Baldwin?

She did not apply to CNU as they have become tougher than the others and she did not want to go to a small school. Mainly though, her GPA did not match the minimum requirements of that school. Mary Baldwin is private and not affordable for us.

Is she involved in a decent amount of extracurriculars?

Theater, Special Olympics, and Friends of Rachel.

Did she have reliable teachers write recommendation letters?

She had letters done by her AP Psychology teach and her history teacher.

Did she take the ACT and the SAT? I'm trying to figure out if the difference is just in the GPA or other areas as well, because it's not right that she's not getting in with harder classes if she only did slightly worse than her peers in easy classes.

She took both tests, did poorly on the SAT, did better on the ACT (above each schools minimum requirement but nothing outstanding.

 

[claudia]

You are giving me palpitations. I have no idea anymore what constitutes a "safety". What do these colleges even want anymore?

Unfortunately with the economy being so difficult many more people are applying to their state colleges and universities. What used to be a "safety" is no longer that. Fortunately DS was accepted to the state school he wanted (he did apply EA) and the letter stated that there were 27,000 applicants......13,000 more than there were just the year before. What do they want....from what I can see they are looking for atleast a 1350/1600 SAT(they are really not calculating the writing part of the SAT) or an ACT of 27-30. In my sons school only one other student was accepted and the rest were deferred. So...what would constitute a "safety"? I have no idea....these poor kids today are having a very difficult time of it.

 

[claudia]

Just wanted to add this link: www.collegedata.com. This is a great site as you can enter in all your school/grade info and then add on schools you want to go to and it will actually "chance" you. It let's you see where other students are academically, etc. applying to the same schools and let's you know who was accepted, deferred or denied.....giving you a pattern to what the school is doing with the numbers. It also allows you to manipulate different things like SAT score, EC's and so on to see what you would need to do to alter you odds of getting accepted into the school you want. So far they were right on with the 2 EA's my son applied to. I think it can be a very useful tool for your children in their planning for school.

 

[agnes!]

That looks like a great site, but have you gotten junk mail/e-mail from it? I don't want to get inundated with MORE garbage (electronic or otherwise) that I just have to throw out.

agnes!

 

[claudia]

That looks like a great site, but have you gotten junk mail/e-mail from it? I don't want to get inundated with MORE garbage (electronic or otherwise) that I just have to throw out.

agnes!

absolutely nothing.....DS has been using it for several months now.

 

[punkin]

What do they want....from what I can see they are looking for atleast a 1350/1600 SAT(they are really not calculating the writing part of the SAT) or an ACT of 27-30.

You know, back in the old days when I was applying to college, I got a 1300 on my SATs and that was enough to get me into LITERALLY any school in the country (my grades were another matter entirely).

I feel so sorry for my DD16 (and OP's DD and everyone else with children in this cohort). I remember freaking out about college, but not this much. Many of her friends who are seniors this year are getting rejections right and left, and it's only the beginning of February. The real deluge of rejections/acceptances won't come 'till March.

 

[shelly3girls]

You know, back in the old days when I was applying to college, I got a 1300 on my SATs and that was enough to get me into LITERALLY any school in the country (my grades were another matter entirely).

Since we were in school the SAT's have been reweighted. Your 1300 score would be much higher now. I do not know the exacty calculation but I have been told that there is a target "average" score and kids were not reaching it so they reweighted sometime in the mid 1990's. The 700 math score today is more similar to low to mid 600's of years ago. As a result the colleges require higher scores now.

 

[punkin]

Since we were in school the SAT's have been reweighted. Your 1300 score would be much higher now. I do not know the exacty calculation but I have been told that there is a target "average" score and kids were not reaching it so they reweighted sometime in the mid 1990's. The 700 math score today is more similar to low to mid 600's of years ago. As a result the colleges require higher scores now.

I did not know that. And here I thought DD16's 1140/1720 was perfectly adequate if not exactly stellar (but we are not looking at stellar colleges either). I guess I need to push her to study and retake. Who knew?

 

[Christine]

Claudia,

Thanks for the site. I punched DD's information in and she got a "low maybe" for all of her schools but one. That one was a "reach" which I fully expected.

 

[shelly3girls]

I did not know that. And here I thought DD16's 1140/1720 was perfectly adequate if not exactly stellar (but we are not looking at stellar colleges either). I guess I need to push her to study and retake. Who knew?

Here is the explanation I read...

The test scoring was initially scaled to make 500 the mean score on each section with a standard deviation of 100.[24] As the test grew more popular and more students from less rigorous schools began taking the test, the average dropped to about 428 Verbal and 478 Math. The SAT was "recentered" in 1995, and the average "new" score became again close to 500. Scores awarded after 1994 and before October 2001 are officially reported with an "R" (e.g. 1260R) to reflect this change. Old scores may be recentered to compare to 1995 to present scores by using official College Board tables[25] , which in the middle ranges add about 70 points to Verbal and 20 or 30 points to Math. In other words, current students have a 100 (70 plus 30) point advantage over their parents.

 

[claudia]

Claudia,

Thanks for the site. I punched DD's information in and she got a "low maybe" for all of her schools but one. That one was a "reach" which I fully expected.

The beauty of the site is that you can alter her info....test scores, GPA, class rank, EC's and so forth to see what your DD would need to do to increase her chances of being accepted. Also if she took a couple of SAT's enter her highest score for each test...the college will superscore, so include that on her profile.

 

[punkin]

Scores awarded after 1994 and before October 2001 are officially reported with an "R" (e.g. 1260R) to reflect this change.

Wait, so what about scores after October 2001? Did they get re-centered again?

 

[claudia]

I did not know that. And here I thought DD16's 1140/1720 was perfectly adequate if not exactly stellar (but we are not looking at stellar colleges either). I guess I need to push her to study and retake. Who knew?

When did she take her SAT? From her age I am assuming she did so early her junior year. My DS took them early junior year and then again early senior year and saw more than a 300 point increase, pretty equal in each section. He told me he thought it was for 2 reasons.....1)he had the experience of one test, so it made the second test less stressful 2)the knowledge increase of another school year. IMHO I would encourage her to retake.

 

[shelly3girls]

Wait, so what about scores after October 2001? Did they get re-centered again?

No, I think they just stoped placing the notation of a recenterd score. They dropped the "R" at the end.

 

[punkin]

When did she take her SAT? From her age I am assuming she did so early her junior year. My DS took them early junior year and then again early senior year and saw more than a 300 point increase, pretty equal in each section. He told me he thought it was for 2 reasons.....1)he had the experience of one test, so it made the second test less stressful 2)the knowledge increase of another school year. IMHO I would encourage her to retake.

She took it in December this year (her Junior year). She is just young for her grade. She will graduate at 17.