Here now, and here is the problem

[wisblue]

Isn't the point of WDW to make us all feel like six year olds?

I can feel like a 6 year old without acting like one.

 

[AmyB2006]

Originally Posted by Colleen27 View Post
But how much peril is that, really, to Disney?

A weeklong guest pays about $60 per ticket-day. I'm an AP holder living over 1000 miles from WDW and I'm paying less than $40 per ticket-day. A local with an AP pays even less.

A once-in-a-lifetime (or once-in-many-years) spends on souvenirs from their magical vacation. I didn't buy a single piece of merchandise on my last trip and only a pin on the one before. My friend who lives in Orlando might buy a couple things each year, though she likes to shop Character Outlet rather than paying retail in the parks.

A vacationer eats every meal on property (assuming an on-site stay) because it is convenient. I venture off property only very occasionally so I'm more "tourist" in that respect, but I have a TiW so Disney's still getting less for the table I'm taking up than for the table taken up by that first-timer. And locals and DVC owners are even less profitable - they go off-site for cheaper/better food, eat at home, or cook in their villas.

And finally, that once-in-a-lifetime traveler might pay rack rate, or might take advantage of whatever discount Disney is promoting for their stay. I get an AP rate that is usually cheaper than anything offered to the general public, the DVC owner pre-paid for accommodations at a greatly discounted rate, and the local goes home to sleep.

Meanwhile, those less-profitable groups - annual passholders, DVC members, and locals - know the classic FP system inside and out and know which rides are must-dos (and repeaters) and which can be skipped. That's allowed us to have the best possible park experience, often at the expense of less prepared visitors from that lucrative once-in-a-lifetime group who get stuck in the standby lines.

I would argue that from a business standpoint it makes a great deal of sense to alienate some of us loyal, frequent guests in order to fill a bigger percentage of their rooms and park capacity with more profitable, more free-spending once-in-a-lifetime types.

It may not be what loyal Disney goers, like myself, want to hear, but it does make sense. Those once in a lifetime visitors are going to spend more money than me on their trip, that is for sure.

 

[JanaDee]

I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

 

[lucyem]

We are here now. I am just frustrated with fp+. It is so unflexible. The way we have toured in the past is done. We like to hop and plan the day of. Not anymore. We have been unable to switch anything. Dh has been sick so that has added a whole other wrench into things. Basically he has missed everest, tot, soarin and tt. Partly due to being sick and partly because we could not switch to later times so he could ride. We have aps so could get paper fps but they are not available long and were always gone. Off to mk when dh is able and of course will miss our jungle cruise fp+. Cannot switch it so hoping the paper fps last longer at mk.

I am also frustrated because we are going with another family in april. Easter is late this year so our spring break will be easter week. Crowds-Yuck. Add in the whole fp+ Scheduling thing and yuck+.

My advice is to take a good look at your schedules and be ready to keep them. Utilize rope drop. If your kids want more then one tsmm ride then you better plan to be up early. If kiddo falls asleep plan to wake them up. Suddenly have a beautiful pool day - bummer you have fp+s scheduled.

 

[clsteve]

I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

Let's face it. US is far more appealing to teens. But Disney at least had a decent number of headliner attractions that still hold some strong appeal to the teenage set. But to keep them happy, they have to be able to ride those things over and over. A family with a teenager often has younger kids too, and they can talk the older kids into doing Disney with the appeal of those headliner attractions. With FP+, especially now with tiering, that is going to be a much tougher, if not impossible, sale to make.

Will it cost Disney that entire family? It remains to be seen.

Good point. And also families with only boys not yet even teenagers, like mine. They're well past the Character stage and are well into the "ride multiple times" stage. I've shown them the Avatar Plans and they went "meh" and asked "when is Star Wars Land going to open..?"

Just like when we went to the New FL last year and they went "that's it? When is the Mine Train going to open....?".

Disney just won't be cost effective for us if there's a great reduction in ride capability.

 

[wisblue]

I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

Let's face it. US is far more appealing to teens. But Disney at least had a decent number of headliner attractions that still hold some strong appeal to the teenage set. But to keep them happy, they have to be able to ride those things over and over. A family with a teenager often has younger kids too, and they can talk the older kids into doing Disney with the appeal of those headliner attractions. With FP+, especially now with tiering, that is going to be a much tougher, if not impossible, sale to make.

Will it cost Disney that entire family? It remains to be seen.

I think you are overstating this impact. Even with FP-, nobody was riding Soarin and Test Track or RNRC or TSMM "over and over again" all day without waiting in standby lines, especially during peak seasons, which is when most families with school age kids can visit.

I'm sure there are a lot of teenagers who have no interest in Disney and who think WDWs headliners are too babyish for them anyway. I also know that our family (3 girls) went right through the teenage years without losing their love of Disney, and they never rode anything more than twice in a day, and even that was rare. They are now all confirmed WDW lovers as adults.

To me, this is just another example of how things affect some people positively and others negatively and everyone has to make decisions based on their situations. But, I think it is a mistake to project how your family feels and reacts on to everyone else.

 

[redsbe]

I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

Let's face it. US is far more appealing to teens. But Disney at least had a decent number of headliner attractions that still hold some strong appeal to the teenage set. But to keep them happy, they have to be able to ride those things over and over. A family with a teenager often has younger kids too, and they can talk the older kids into doing Disney with the appeal of those headliner attractions. With FP+, especially now with tiering, that is going to be a much tougher, if not impossible, sale to make.

Will it cost Disney that entire family? It remains to be seen.

The issue with FP+ as it currently stands is with TT, Soarin, and TSM - do teenagers actually ride those over and over again on a given day??

 

[AmyB2006]

Good point. And also families with only boys not yet even teenagers, like mine. They're well past the Character stage and are well into the "ride multiple times" stage. I've shown them the Avatar Plans and they went "meh" and asked "when is Star Wars Land going to open..?"

Just like when we went to the New FL last year and they went "that's it? When in is the Mine Train going to open....?".

Disney just won't be cost effective for us if there's a great reduction in ride capability.

True. I remember being a teenager at Disney. It was how many times can we ride Space Mountain or Body Wars or Star Tours??

I have a friend that used to live locally and I would stay with her every summer for a week. So her mom would drop us off at Disney, we would go to Star Tours first, ride that several times, then leave and go to MK and do what we could there, then leave and go to Epcot for the evening till 6ish. There was no AK then. LOL But we would try to squeeze as much as we could in.

 

[KatieCharlotte]

I think that with the advent of FP+, Disney is completely surrendering the teenage market. I wouldn't be surprised at all if I found out a majority of people who hate the new system have teenage members in their families.

Let's face it. US is far more appealing to teens. But Disney at least had a decent number of headliner attractions that still hold some strong appeal to the teenage set. But to keep them happy, they have to be able to ride those things over and over. A family with a teenager often has younger kids too, and they can talk the older kids into doing Disney with the appeal of those headliner attractions. With FP+, especially now with tiering, that is going to be a much tougher, if not impossible, sale to make.

Will it cost Disney that entire family? It remains to be seen.

We have two almost-teens and a little one. My biggest worry right now about FP+ is that my kids are unpredictable -- one day they might be feeling sensitive to motion, the next they want to spend the day on thrill rides. How do I book two months ahead?

They still like the old classics now, but I can see that changing over the next several years and the middle child especially wanting to ride the mountains over and over. We are already all more excited about our day at IoA. The littlest is hoping she'll be tall enough for Jurassic Park. The DHS tiers would work for us now, but not when short-for-her-age middle child is finally ready for RnR but wants me to ride with her, and all three kids want to ride TSMM twice like we always have.

 

[Planogirl]

You're forgetting the the audience competing for those FP's just grew exponentially. You aren't just competing with guests at Epcot for the Soaring FP now. You are competing with guests at all the parks, at DTD, in their hotels etc. What happens will all the local AP holders start hoarding FP's because maybe I will go to Epcot tomorrow, maybe I won't? Better grab a FP just in case...... It might be awesome now when not as many people are doing it or even aware they can, but what happens when everyone is now trying to book that Soaring FP 30 days out? Like you mentioned, Disney can only push so many people through any ride on any given day. FP doesn't solve a capacity issue. It might help with the queuing and the user experience but you just can't say, allocate 4,000 more FP's without affecting the SB line.

FWIW, I am not complaining just calling it like I see it. I don't claim to be smarter than Disney when it comes to theme park planning, but I can't see how FP doesn't become more exclusive especially during peak periods. If you listen to what Rasulo says, he thinks making guests plan every aspect of their stay months in advance will keep guests from going offsite to Universal or Sea World. So clearly at least he expects guests to book their entire trip in advance. Personally I think he's wrong but that's just because I don't want to do it. Maybe the other 14,999,999 people that go there every year love to do that

I agree. I go even further in thinking that allowing me to book 3 FP+ when I wish actually makes it easier to go offsite and enjoy other places. I could go to a Universal park in the morning and then come back and ride my FP+ choices in the evening. I don't see how this will keep anyone onsite who doesn't already want to stay onsite.

I guess that that leave 14,999,998 people.

 

[mom2rtk]

I think you are overstating this impact. Even with FP-, nobody was riding Soarin and Test Track or RNRC or TSMM "over and over again" all day without waiting in standby lines, especially during peak seasons, which is when most families with school age kids can visit.

I'm sure there are a lot of teenagers who have no interest in Disney and who think WDWs headliners are too babyish for them anyway. I also know that our family (3 girls) went right through the teenage years without losing their love of Disney, and they never rode anything more than twice in a day, and even that was rare. They are now all confirmed WDW lovers as adults.

To me, this is just another example of how things affect some people positively and others negatively and everyone has to make decisions based on their situations. But, I think it is a mistake to project how your family feels and reacts on to everyone else.

The issue with FP+ as it currently stands is with TT, Soarin, and TSM - do teenagers actually ride those over and over again on a given day??

For us it's BTMRR, Space Mountain, EE, RnR and ToT.

And I don't think I'm overstating it. Those rides might not be gone weeks in advance like the top 3 (or maybe they will, but I'll concede that for now) but it doesn't matter. Even if there is ample FP inventory, it's ride once with FP (maybe only one or two of them depending on tiering) then on to standby. Which we won't do if it's over 20-30 minutes. They can limitless FP capacity but with FP+ it's one (or less with tiering) and done.

We have two almost-teens and a little one. My biggest worry right now about FP+ is that my kids are unpredictable -- one day they might be feeling sensitive to motion, the next they want to spend the day on thrill rides. How do I book two months ahead?

They still like the old classics now, but I can see that changing over the next several years and the middle child especially wanting to ride the mountains over and over. We are already all more excited about our day at IoA. The littlest is hoping she'll be tall enough for Jurassic Park. The DHS tiers would work for us now, but not when short-for-her-age middle child is finally ready for RnR but wants me to ride with her, and all three kids want to ride TSMM twice like we always have.

I feel sad for those with little kids just aging into some of the big rides. On our last trip my daughter (who was 12 at the time) SWORE she wasn't going to ride ToT. No way, no how. Before our day at DHS was over she found the courage to give it a try and it is one of her best memories of the trip....... riding it 5 or 6 times one evening with the assistance of FP.

I think that with FP+, people will be less likely to use one of their limited spots on something they *hope* their child will like. And let's face it. You're not going to get into an hour long line for something they are a little scared off. That's too long to worry and fret. So they will be far more likely to just pass it over.

 

[mom2rtk]

 

[clsteve]

For us it's BTMRR, Space Mountain, EE, RnR and ToT.


I think that with FP+, people will be less likely to use one of their limited spots on something they *hope* their child will like. And let's face it. You're not going to get into an hour long line for something they are a little scared off. That's too long to worry and fret. So they will be far more likely to just pass it over.

My DS7 would have lost his courage for EE, if not for FP-. We breezed through, he loved it, and then wouldn't stop asking if it was in our window to pull another. He wears his "I Conquered Everest" Yeti t-shirt to school just about once a week - it would be more, if we let him...

 

[redsbe]

"And I don't think I'm overstating it. Those rides might not be gone weeks in advance like the top 3 (or maybe they will, but I'll concede that for now) but it doesn't matter. Even if there is ample FP inventory, it's ride once with FP (maybe only one or two of them depending on tiering) then on to standby. Which we won't do if it's over 20-30 minutes. They can limitless FP capacity but with FP+ it's one (or less with tiering) and done."

Then use the long standing strategies that existed even with FP- (which would also have late FP- times when pulled midday) - RD and/or visit during low crowds IF your park experience must include riding SM 5x in one day. Even with FP there was some planning and strategy required in order to ride the most popular attractions when crowds were average or high.

 

[wisblue]

And I don't think I'm overstating it. Those rides might not be gone weeks in advance like the top 3 (or maybe they will, but I'll concede that for now) but it doesn't matter. Even if there is ample FP inventory, it's ride once with FP (maybe only one or two of them depending on tiering) then on to standby. Which we won't do if it's over 20-30 minutes. They can limitless FP capacity but with FP+ it's one (or less with tiering) and done.

I meant that I think you are overstating the number of families for which the ability to ride certain things multiple times will be the make or break on deciding whether or not to go to WDW.

Obviously your family may be one, as you have stated numerous times. And I'm sure there are others. But, you have also said that you are going to Disneyland this week or next. If you are willing and able to take your kids out of school so they can ride certain attractions multiple times a day, you will still be able to do that in early December.

If you are stuck going during holiday times, the ability to ride those things over and over without long waits was never there, with FP- or before.

There have always been a lot of families that have drifted away from WDW as their kids got older, and that isn't going to change.

 

[pampam]

What do you think their main intent is? Keep people in line longer? Keep people in limbo between FP+ attractions so that they hit a shop and spend money? If it isn't to spread out the FPs, then what is it? (honestly asking here)

They could have also just used the current FP system and adapted the machines with the mickey head reader and we could have gotten FPs with our magic bands the same as now.

I can't say what exactly their full intent is, I can only surmise. But I do know that the magic bands have an antenna in them that tracks exactly what a person does at any given time. They know if you walk counter clockwise or clockwise, what attractions you go to see first, if your charge card is linked to it they know how much you spend and on what. They can even tell how often you use the washroom and how long it takes. The KTTW did not have an antenna. It had what is called passive RFID and so it was only good for a limited amount of info. Now the technology is able to collect more data. Big Brother is watching.

 

[clsteve]

I meant that I think you are overstating the number of families for which the ability to ride certain things multiple times will be the make or break on deciding whether or not to go to WDW.

Obviously your family may be one, as you have stated numerous times. And I'm sure there are others.

But, there have always been a lot of families that have drifted away from WDW as their kids got older, and that isn't going to change.

But, I think it's fair to point out that Disney set the expectation of being able to easily ride multiple times with FP-. They are taking that away and it is a very difficult thing to explain to the kids and an expensive risk for us to hope they can be re-set under the new rules.

 

[wisblue]

We are here now. I am just frustrated with fp+. It is so unflexible. The way we have toured in the past is done. We like to hop and plan the day of. Not anymore. We have been unable to switch anything. Dh has been sick so that has added a whole other wrench into things. Basically he has missed everest, tot, soarin and tt. Partly due to being sick and partly because we could not switch to later times so he could ride. We have aps so could get paper fps but they are not available long and were always gone. Off to mk when dh is able and of course will miss our jungle cruise fp+. Cannot switch it so hoping the paper fps last longer at mk.

I am also frustrated because we are going with another family in april. Easter is late this year so our spring break will be easter week. Crowds-Yuck. Add in the whole fp+ Scheduling thing and yuck+.

My advice is to take a good look at your schedules and be ready to keep them. Utilize rope drop. If your kids want more then one tsmm ride then you better plan to be up early. If kiddo falls asleep plan to wake them up. Suddenly have a beautiful pool day - bummer you have fp+s scheduled.

I'm really sorry one of your family members got sick. many of us have been there and there aren't many other things that can have as big a negative impact on a trip.

I am curious about your statement that you can't change your Jungle Cruise FP+ reservation. I just went on MDE and tried to schedule FP+ for Peter Pan, Jungle Cruise, and Space Mountain, which are 3 of the rides for which FP go fastest. I was able to get them all and could change JC to every time slot up until the park closes for the Christmas party.

If anything, I would think that FP+, with at least the POSSIBILITY of making reservations or changes on the day before or day of, would be seen as more flexible than FP- when someone gets sick and you have to change plans. With FP- you would be limited to what you can get at the park when you get there, and only one at a time.

 

[Finally08]

I can't say what exactly their full intent is, I can only surmise. But I do know that the magic bands have an antenna in them that tracks exactly what a person does at any given time. They know if you walk counter clockwise or clockwise, what attractions you go to see first, if your charge card is linked to it they know how much you spend and on what. They can even tell how often you use the washroom and how long it takes. The KTTW did not have an antenna. It had what is called passive RFID and so it was only good for a limited amount of info. Now the technology is able to collect more data. Big Brother is watching.

Fabulous, now they can see just how sick their food makes a person with no gallbladder.

 

[OtherScott]

Yep,

And we can't forget that Disney hasn't even started marketing FP+, yet. Once they do (and they've said they are) there will be a huge upswing in FP+ awareness. All of those first timers who had no clue about FP- will now be making FP+ reservations 60 days out. Or, at least their TA/CM will be doing it for them.

No matter what we say about Disney, I think everyone agrees that Disney Marketing has their act together. When they get hold of FP+ - well, I guess we'll have a lot to talk about in the Spring...

Why do you assume Disney will aggressively market FP+? If the goal is capacity, crowd management, throughput, or whatever you want to call it, why hasn't Disney marketed FP and other anchoring factors up until now?

Disney's success comes from understanding the way their visitors want to interact with them. Most don't want to engage in advance planning and I see no reason why most suddenly will.

My belief is that the FP wave will swell initially, then naturally ebb to reflect the visitors' desires. What this will look like on the ground is FP+ selections closer to day of visit for most, same day for a lot, and opportunities for exploitation for the truly committed.

It's all about the MBs.