Help me understand plz this is not a joke

[QVCshopper]

Thanks for your post, Zhoen. Very interesting.

OP, I'm frugal but I know it. I have a feeling I'm overly frugal and I'm thinking about making a conscious effort to change. It's very hard, and comes from a poor childhood and early adulthood. But, I have found a way to mostly stop buying junk just because it's on sale. Now, I need to spend more to enjoy life in the way I want, but I need the security, too.

 

[ready123go]

I had a friend and a relative both call me a tightwad. Then I began to look at it objectively.

I realized the "friend" would ask me to dinner, then order more expensive meals, cappuccino, wine and dessert. I would order a simple entrée. Then she would not even cough up half of the total and would short the tip, to boot!

My relative was always trying to sell me some unusable POS that he no longer wanted, for more than market value. When I stopped speaking to him (long story) he turned his sights on others in the family and now they no longer speak to him.

They both had a habit of spending their money on consumables that could not be shared or had little value to others (dinners, vacations, clothing, new cars, etc.). Whereas I had a habit of spending money on assets that could be utilized by another (power tools, trucks, vacation/investment home). Guess which two people were first in line to ask to borrow something, use something or have me or DH fix something.

My point is I finally learned that I am the one who earns my money, so I am the one who gets to say how it is spent. And if someone is calling you "cheap" chances are they are the skinflint.

In other words:
Frugal is when I money spend my money the way I want to spend it.
Tightwad is when I don't spend my money the way someone else wants me to spend it.

 

[deuceswild10]

Does she ever splurge or spend money? I know people who are so tight with money that they actually deny themselves things they could easily afford and really don't have a whole lot of fun in life. At some point I do wonder, what are you saving for?? Big trip? Nice house? Early retirement? No to all of the above, so I just don't get it.

 

[NotUrsula]

There is a difference between frugal and cheap, especially when cheap starts creeping into petty theft territory, such as the business of asking for an entire bowl of free lemon wedges in a restaurant in order to make lemonade at the table, or stiffing waiters who don't deserve it.

The other facet of "cheap" that is really a problem is when the person compromises safety in order to save money, such as driving on bald tires until they blow out, or continuing to use home appliances that are shorting out all the time. I know someone who died that way.

If they just order off the bottom of the menu, drink tap water, and drive around their family of 5 in a well-maintained Kia Rio, then that's frugal, not cheap.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

There is a difference between frugal and cheap, especially when cheap starts creeping into petty theft territory, such as the business of asking for an entire bowl of free lemon wedges in a restaurant in order to make lemonade at the table, or stiffing waiters who don't deserve it.

The other facet of "cheap" that is really a problem is when the person compromises safety in order to save money, such as driving on bald tires until they blow out, or continuing to use home appliances that are shorting out all the time. I know someone who died that way.

If they just order off the bottom of the menu, drink tap water, and drive around their family of 5 in a well-maintained Kia Rio, then that's frugal, not cheap.

I'm glad someone brought this up. OP made me wonder if her friend was just frugal, or "cheap". Is this someone who tries to welch on their fair share of a lunch bill? Or, someone who buys "Cola" instead of "Coke" because it's cheaper? There's a difference in being frugal & being "cheap".

 

[Luv Bunnies]

Does she ever splurge or spend money? I know people who are so tight with money that they actually deny themselves things they could easily afford and really don't have a whole lot of fun in life. At some point I do wonder, what are you saving for?? Big trip? Nice house? Early retirement? No to all of the above, so I just don't get it.

I guess you would probably think my husband and I deny ourselves and don't have any fun. We always choose the less expensive option in favor of saving money, and we're not saving for any particular item. However, our savings gives us peace of mind, and truthfully I'd rather have that than a lot of extravagent things I don't really need. You never know when you might need a healthy savings account. My husband was laid off and it took him almost two years to find a job. We sailed right through when others around us were running up huge credit card bills and losing their houses. We've never really saved for anything in particular. We just save constantly and if a need arises, the money is there. That makes us happier than any vacation or fancy car ever could.

 

[disney1990]

Nothing wrong with being frugal - but if the two of you have different views on money, the relationship is not going to work.

DH & I are both frugal, that said, we tip 20% when we go to restaurants. For years, we very rarely ate out and it allowed us to pay off our house in 15 years instead of 30.

You have to be able to find a middle ground on this to make it work.

 

[crisi]

See, I don't "get" some of the people I know. I know a guy who lives hand to mouth and frequently borrows money from relatives to pay the rent. But if he has $1000 and sees a great deal on a guitar,he'll buy it. Another friend hasn't saved for her kids college, but has been to Europe five times in the past fifteen years.

I've come to realize that these people value financial security differently than I do. In economic terms, they get far more utility out of guitars or trips than in knowing that if they don't get hours at work, they'll still make rent or in having college saved for. And as they are happy with what they've chosen, my job is to value them for whom they are and deal with our differences. And avoid those cases (like, for instance, dinner out) where their behavior is likely to either affect me personally, or just drives me nuts.

Value your friend for what she is. Avoid situation where you are incompatible people.

 

[honeydiane1953]

A friend of both of ours was a BIG SPENDER. The spender told my best friend she was a tightwad. The "tightwad" called me and asked if she was? I said H*** yes!!! She knew I would tell her the truth. I had just NEVER told her this. She said she didn't think she was at all, just watched her money close. She defended herself for so long. We dropped it. BTW we have been friends for 50+ yrs. She brings it up from time to time. I think our relationship will survive. I know I am not the big spender(she has loads of money) on the other hand have never been frugal. I just didn't understand what makes someone so tight it hurts. She has plenty of savings etc. but pinches pennies for real.

 

[danceintherain]

The word everyone is thinking of, but nobody has said is "utility". A "util" is a measurement (like an inch or a pound) that measures how useful you find something. Usually it is measured in "utils per dollar." Everyone finds utility in different places. If you hate hot dogs, then even though they are cheap, you don't find much utility there. If you're starving, haven't eaten for days, that hot dog would suddenly be PACKED with utility for you... the first would be FULL of utility, the second a little less, the third even less, etc.

Most of the people on the budget boards find utility in the feeling of monetary security. We find value in knowing we have a bit "tucked away". We value the peace of mind that gives us. We find more utility in feeling secure than we would in "blowing" that money on something... but, that said, we can also feel utility using the money for something we have saved for. But it's a balance. I could blow all my savings for that big trip abroad tomorrow, but I would not get much utility from it because I'd be fretting about my lost security, plus my children are too young to fully "get" the experience. When we do go, I want them to be old enough, and I want to

Example-since this is a Disney forum. People here really like Disney. And people on this sub-forum like a good deal. So people here find utility in visiting Disney for various reasons, and find extra utility in doing it in a way that fits their values. You want to RUIN a trip for most of us, come along with minimal preparations. Buy everything in the parks and then complain about the cost, complain about the lines, talk about how long you're going to be paying the credit card bill for this meal that you don't even really like... and don't forget to constantly mention how you don't even LIKE Disney stuff... you get the point... It is very possible for one person to completely drain the fun (utility) out of someone else's day-- if we let them.

In your case, your friend sounds like she finds utility in hanging on to her money, but she does it in such a way that makes the eating-out experience unpleasant for you. My question is, which one of you says "Let's go out to eat?"

This is it exactly. Everyone has their own priorities.

While it baffles me to no end that some people have a standing hair appointment every month for which they pay $50-$100, I'm sure it baffles them just as much that I would be willing to save that money and then some in order to spend a little extra money on my next trip to Disney.

Some people can't stand the thought of dressing their children in secondhand clothes, while I can't stand the thought of spending $20 for an adorable onesie that my child with likely grow out of in a few months and/or spill/leak random fluids onto it on a daily basis.

Some people live paycheck to paycheck because they can't make enough money to cover their needs, others live paycheck to paycheck because their wants are constantly overshadowing their needs. Some people don't even need to pay attention to when they get paid, because they live well within their income.

There's definitely a balance to be achieved, but everyone attributes a different weight to things, so a well balanced income for one person may be completely out of balance for someone else.

You also run into an issue of entitlement. Even though some people can't stand the thought of tipping 20% of a large bill, they refuse to eat somewhere less expensive because they feel entitled to eat at the fancier place, even though they can't actually afford it.

 

[Allison]

Nothing wrong with being frugal - but if the two of you have different views on money, the relationship is not going to work.

DH & I are both frugal, that said, we tip 20% when we go to restaurants. For years, we very rarely ate out and it allowed us to pay off our house in 15 years instead of 30.

You have to be able to find a middle ground on this to make it work.

They are friends with a different approach to money. I do not think they need to find a middle ground. Neither is wrong and they aren't sharing a bank account.

 

[Alexander]

My daddy always said, "You can't take it with you."

The motto I live by!

 

[crisi]

Your friend may be driven by a few things.

She may enjoy being frugal. She doesn't get as much utility out of spending, even if its something she would enjoy, as she gets enjoyment out of savings. I have a friend who is a shopper and a collector of things She asked me to go shopping with her, I told her I wasn't much of a shopper. She asked what I collect - "stock." I get as much enjoyment out of my portfolio as she gets out of her shoe collection.

She may have plans for that money. She may intend to spend it down in retirement. She may never want to be in a publicly funded nursing home and want private care in her last days. She may want to endow a home for alley cats.

She may be terrified of being broke. A large bank account makes it that much easier for her to sleep at night knowing that she won't be homeless. I can be like this - as a kid I had a friend disappear when her dad lost his job and their home was foreclosed on. The family - which was large - was scattered to various relatives. That terrifies me. Its been thirty years and I still have nightmares about it - and they got worse when I had kids.

 

[MrsPete]

Let me start off my saying my best friend is a tight wad. I love her just don't understand why she is this way. You may call it frugal. She couldn't believe when another person pointed it out and then she asked me. I told her the truth she acted like she was shocked. I had just never told her. Can anyone shed some light on this for me? BTW it drives me crazy. Does anyone have any ideas as I am clueless.

I'm a very frugal person. I was raised frugal, and as an adult I've taken it to a whole new level. My husband wasn't particularly frugal when we first met, but he quickly came to see the value in the getting the best value for every dollar.

Now that my oldest is about to head out to college, we're really seeing the benefit in having lived this way all our married life. Just yesterday my daughter was telling me about her friends who are taking out loans for college, and how one friend in particular is just terrified that she's signing her life away (she is -- she's borrowing 15K just for freshman year, and she plans to be a teacher; in our state, her starting salary will be around 23K -- but I digress). She told me how much she appreciates that her dad and I are able to pay for her college, and she understands now why we said no to little things here and there when she was younger. Ditto for our own retirement: We're well on track to security for our senior years. I'm firmly convinced that frugality is well worth the effort, and I have trouble understanding people who spend thoughtlessly.

Back to your friend: What I don't understand is her being surprised. How does one reach adulthood without being aware of her own spending habits? Especially if she's frugal? Spendthrifts are usually blissfully unaware of their spending -- they spend when they have it, do without when they don't. Frugal people are usually much more aware.

Americans, as a whole, are socialized to find pleasure (utility) in getting "deals." I saw a man at the grocery store on Sunday, pointing out the yogurt to his little girl, about 3 or 4, and saying "it's on sale!" He didn't seem to care whether it was the kind she wanted or even if it was the best price overall, he was unintentionally training this child to get excited every time she sees a little yellow sign on a shelf. Lots of people find utility in the feeling of getting a good deal, and don't even realize why. That's why they buy "junk" they don't need.

Yes, advertising is pervasive and it makes it hard for some people to say "no". Or the sales confuse the subject. For example, one grocery store near me frequently runs a "buy 2, get 3 free" sale on numerous things -- sounds great, but they crank up the price of those first two items to the point that the whole deal is just average. For example, they'll have a sale on 12-packs of sodas: Buy the first two at $6.39 and get three free. That comes out to $2.56/12-pack. I can find them any day of the week for $2.50-3.00 (though not at that store), so it's not a fantastic price . . . yet you see people hauling cartloads out of the store when they run that sale. Saying that you're getting three free is a huge enticement to the people who don't stop to do the math. Every sale isn't a good value.

See, I don't "get" some of the people I know. I know a guy who lives hand to mouth and frequently borrows money from relatives to pay the rent. But if he has $1000 and sees a great deal on a guitar,he'll buy it. Another friend hasn't saved for her kids college, but has been to Europe five times in the past fifteen years.

I've come to realize that these people value financial security differently than I do. In economic terms, they get far more utility out of guitars or trips than in knowing that if they don't get hours at work, they'll still make rent or in having college saved for. And as they are happy with what they've chosen, my job is to value them for whom they are and deal with our differences. And avoid those cases (like, for instance, dinner out) where their behavior is likely to either affect me personally, or just drives me nuts.

Value your friend for what she is. Avoid situation where you are incompatible people.

Your last line is very wise. Value this friendship for its strengths: If you like to get together and take your children to the pool, do that. But if you don't enjoy her shopping or eating-out habits, just find a reason not to share those activities.

 

[Cindy B]

As I kid, I lived a frugal lifestyle. My parents worked. In fact, my dad always had 2 or 3 jobs. He always had a full time job and a weekend side job- whether if it was truck driver, maintenance man, warehouse, tour bus driver- he was always doing something.

My mom worked when it was "unfashionable" to do so. She was one of the few working moms that I knew. She was also one of the youngest moms too.

We lived frugally my entire life. Dinners out were only with coupons or early bird specials = and only waters, please! These dinners were very few and far between. We had two vacations from age 4-5 to 18. One was to Canada and the other was to California to visit relatives. My sister and I were told to get jobs young- and we did-we paid for all our high school expenses ourselves: prom, car, senior class trip, class ring, senior portraits

I had worked since I was 14.

My DH was on the opposite spectrum. He came from a more affluent family and some things weren't even on his spectrum- like coupons! Somehow, someway we have met in the middle.

I still pull out the coupons if we are looking to go out to eat- but I also don't go crazy commando with the coupons. Speaking of coupons, our coupon selections have been so poor lately- I have pretty much stopped buying the paper. I find myself spending LESS on groceries without a coupon. We are buying more fruit and fresh vegetables and less junk.

Frugality is a lifestyle for me. It wasn't for my husband. Somehow we have made it work.

 

[NCRedding]

Now that my oldest is about to head out to college, we're really seeing the benefit in having lived this way all our married life. Just yesterday my daughter was telling me about her friends who are taking out loans for college, and how one friend in particular is just terrified that she's signing her life away (she is -- she's borrowing 15K just for freshman year, and she plans to be a teacher; in our state, her starting salary will be around 23K -- but I digress).

FYI, starting salary for a teacher in NC is actually $30,430 a year. Not a lavish salary, but not a dire as $23,000 a year.

 

[Cindy B]

Now that my oldest is about to head out to college, we're really seeing the benefit in having lived this way all our married life. Just yesterday my daughter was telling me about her friends who are taking out loans for college, and how one friend in particular is just terrified that she's signing her life away (she is -- she's borrowing 15K just for freshman year, and she plans to be a teacher; in our state, her starting salary will be around 23K -- but I digress).

FYI, starting salary for a teacher in NC is actually $30,430 a year. Not a lavish salary, but not a dire as $23,000 a year.

$30K is still low. There are districts in my state that are paying over $50K for first year teachers (BA step 1).

 

[MrsPete]

FYI, starting salary for a teacher in NC is actually $30,430 a year. Not a lavish salary, but not a dire as $23,000 a year.

You're right -- it's better than I thought. I've been here since starting salaries were below 20K. Still, I wouldn't want to try to pay back 15K x 4 years on that salary.

 

[tar heel]

For the North Carolina teacher salaries, you can add a local supplement in many districts. My son's girlfriend is a first-year teacher and her salary is a little over $34,000.

 

[patsal]

$30K is still low. There are districts in my state that are paying over $50K for first year teachers (BA step 1).

damn, I need to move, step 15 and I am not there yet!