Happy Darwin Day

[DisneyWalker44]

Actually, it is taught now that slavery (while a big part of the civil war) was not the main issue. It was a state's rights war. It was a war to determine if states had the rights they thought they had or the rights given to them in the Constitution.

Who is teaching it that way? With all due respect, that's ridiculous.

The Southern states didn't secede to prove the point that they had the right to secede.They didn't leave because they had a disagreement with Northern States over the issue of states rights.

The Southerners told us why they left. We disrespect them if we try to whitewash their motivation. Their overriding concern was preservation of the institution slavery. They made a few states-rights arguments to justify why they had the right to leave. But states-rights arguments certainly weren't the reason for their actions.

Don't believe it because of something I write - or because of anything written now. Go back and read what they wrote. These weren't dumb hicks - they were well educated men who spelled out for us exactly why they did what they did. Their motivations might make us a bit uncomfortable today, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't understand them.

Here's a good place to start reading: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Texas

 

[DisneyWalker44]

I did more than that -

You didn't do "more," you did something different. Are you unwilling to spend 1 minute to challenge your own beliefs? Why not look and see if there isn't a mountain of evidence that contradicts what you posted?

 

[CPT Tripss]

Just a note about the source of the "proof" provided by a pp. Not the kind of ideas that created my USA.


V-DARE
www.vdare.com

V-DARE — shorthand for Virginia Dare, the first English child to be born in what is now the United States — is a web site run by a "coalition" whose most prominent member is Peter Brimelow.

Brimelow, a leading anti-immigration activist and author of Alien Nation, argues that America is historically a predominantly white nation, and that Americans have a right to demand that it remain that way.

A past columnist for the conservative National Review, Brimelow says he once considered adding a fictional end to his Alien Nation, a nonfiction critique of immigration, about the last white family to leave Los Angeles.

V-DARE posts anti-immigration articles by Brimelow's twin brother John; right-wing columnists like Paul Craig Roberts and Joseph Fallon (Brimelow's main researcher on Alien Nation); and defenders of The Bell Curve — a controversial book arguing that whites are more intelligent than blacks — like Steve Sailer.

Both Brimelow and Fallon have defended Jared Taylor, who edits the racist American Renaissance magazine. Taylor's deputy, James Lubinskas, has returned the favor by writing for V-DARE.

Brimelow has close ties to several other leaders on the anti-immigration scene, among them John Vinson of the American Immigration Control Foundation, Llewellyn Rockwell and Jeffrey Tucker of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, and John H. Tanton of the Federation for American Immigration Reform.

 

[ford family]

Oh no, please feel free to post a few, id like to see some. I tend to get carried away with this topic myself, but i do enjoy the debate. Im sure i will have already seen by now what you may post, and i have quite interesting answers to challenge what some deem to be scientific empirical evidence. No bad feelings, all in the spirit of fun debate.

I was thinking about you the other day. Well, not you specifically but creationists generally. I was in the Museum of South Florida in Bradenton looking at their manatee aquarium and exhibits. There is a skeleton of a manatee and I was fascinated by the bone structure.
They say that the evolution of manatees is not unlike dolphins and whales, originally land mammals that returned to the sea. Indeed, the closest living relative to the manatee is the elephant.
The front flipper of a manatee does not have to be very dexterous. It is a short, stubby appendage that is primarily used for pushing plants towards their mouth and some help with steering. You would not expect this appendage to have a complicated bone structure but it has.
There is a single "upper arm" bone, an elbow, two lower arm bones, a wrist, and a complete set of five digits with all the knuckle bones in place. They even have "fingernails" on the outside of the flipper where the "fingers" end
To me, this over complicated bone structure speaks volumes for evolution and nothing for intelligent design. IMO it is evidence of one mammal evolving into another mammal brought about by gradual environmental changes over millions of years. YMMV.
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/graphics/manatee/MOTE_flipskel.jpg

ford family

 

[Saxsoon]

Who is teaching it that way? With all due respect, that's ridiculous.

The Southern states didn't secede to prove the point that they had the right to secede.They didn't leave because they had a disagreement with Northern States over the issue of states rights.

The Southerners told us why they left. We disrespect them if we try to whitewash their motivation. Their overriding concern was preservation of the institution slavery. They made a few states-rights arguments to justify why they had the right to leave. But states-rights arguments certainly weren't the reason for their actions.

Don't believe it because of something I write - or because of anything written now. Go back and read what they wrote. These weren't dumb hicks - they were well educated men who spelled out for us exactly why they did what they did. Their motivations might make us a bit uncomfortable today, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't understand them.

Here's a good place to start reading: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html#Texas

Per your article.

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.


I didn't say that slavery had nothing to do with it. All I said is that there are other motivations involved other than slavery. I have had both Conservative and Liberal teachers teach this as well as most modern history text books. It makes the Civil War stand in a clearer light when you take the other motivations into consideration.

 

[breezy1077]

Oh no, please feel free to post a few, id like to see some. I tend to get carried away with this topic myself, but i do enjoy the debate. Im sure i will have already seen by now what you may post, and i have quite interesting answers to challenge what some deem to be scientific empirical evidence. No bad feelings, all in the spirit of fun debate.

I agree, I would like to see all this scientific evidence that proves evolution. Please post it.

From my understanding, Darwin had a theory that he said would be proven correct in years to come with fossilic evidence.

That evidence never manifested, so......

 

[breezy1077]

I am certain Charles Darwin would note with some amusement the predictable "devolution" of a thread "observing" his birth date.

G_d is amused also. He made Charles Darwin possible after all.....

I think God is awesome in the way he works - and amused that in the push to prove Darwin's theory, it's actually helping to prove creation.

 

[SSAVL]

I was thinking about you the other day. Well, not you specifically but creationists generally. I was in the Museum of South Florida in Bradenton looking at their manatee aquarium and exhibits. There is a skeleton of a manatee and I was fascinated by the bone structure.
They say that the evolution of manatees is not unlike dolphins and whales, originally land mammals that returned to the sea. Indeed, the closest living relative to the manatee is the elephant.
The front flipper of a manatee does not have to be very dexterous. It is a short, stubby appendage that is primarily used for pushing plants towards their mouth and some help with steering. You would not expect this appendage to have a complicated bone structure but it has.
There is a single "upper arm" bone, an elbow, two lower arm bones, a wrist, and a complete set of five digits with all the knuckle bones in place. They even have "fingernails" on the outside of the flipper where the "fingers" end
To me, this over complicated bone structure speaks volumes for evolution and nothing for intelligent design. IMO it is evidence of one mammal evolving into another mammal brought about by gradual environmental changes over millions of years. YMMV.
http://www.learner.org/jnorth/images/graphics/manatee/MOTE_flipskel.jpg

ford family[/QUOT

Nice post, you put some thought into it. I guess my question would be this...You mention the manatees fingernails and fingers. How do we know that manatees 150,000 years ago didnt have the same bone structures? Or put another way, if man allegedly evolved from apes, and there are apes AND man on the planet now...given that the theory of evoultion is obviously a "gradual" process....where is the inbetween? If you have the beginning and the end product right in front of you, and evolution is constant, shouldnt there be a middle of the road eveloutionay "species" or subject as in half man half ape? Like if there really was a Bigfoot, something along that line. To me its just a threoy, just because skeletal structure is "similar" doesnt mean they had to come from the same origin. Let me ask this question as long as we are in the scientific area. How do scientists know a star that is 100 million light years away has burnd out and we are only seeing residual light? How do they know its still not alive like out sun? Is there FACT that can prove this? Or is it just theory?

 

[SSAVL]

I think God is awesome in the way he works - and amused that in the push to prove Darwin's theory, it's actually helping to prove creation.

Breezy.....on a slightly more sinister note, i feel Darwinism was probably "invented" to help push GOD from the equation of life. Kinda like taking the "Christ" out of Christmas for secular reasons. JMHO

 

[wvjules]

Are we talking about evolution/creationism, lincoln/slavery/civil war, or if scientific theories are theories in layman's sense or if they are fact.

 

[mirmartinez]

Are we talking about evolution/creationism, lincoln/slavery/civil war, or if scientific theories are theories in layman's sense or if they are fact.

This thread has grown another head that has grown another head and so forth

 

[PeterPan09]

This thread has grown another head that has grown another head and so forth

It's evolving....evidence that Darwin was right.

 

[breezy1077]

Breezy.....on a slightly more sinister note, i feel Darwinism was probably "invented" to help push GOD from the equation of life. Kinda like taking the "Christ" out of Christmas for secular reasons. JMHO

You could be absolutely correct. But I love how God takes the work of the enemy and twist and bends it to his will. Time will tell I guess.

 

[mirmartinez]

It's evolving....evidence that Darwin was right.

 

[ford family]

Nice post, you put some thought into it. I guess my question would be this...You mention the manatees fingernails and fingers. How do we know that manatees 150,000 years ago didnt have the same bone structures? Or put another way, if man allegedly evolved from apes, and there are apes AND man on the planet now...given that the theory of evoultion is obviously a "gradual" process....where is the inbetween? If you have the beginning and the end product right in front of you, and evolution is constant, shouldnt there be a middle of the road eveloutionay "species" or subject as in half man half ape? Like if there really was a Bigfoot, something along that line. To me its just a threoy, just because skeletal structure is "similar" doesnt mean they had to come from the same origin. Let me ask this question as long as we are in the scientific area. How do scientists know a star that is 100 million light years away has burnd out and we are only seeing residual light? How do they know its still not alive like out sun? Is there FACT that can prove this? Or is it just theory?

Surely the question is why would manatees and elephants and humans have the same skeletal features if they didn't have common ancestors millions of years ago?

I think the scientific understanding is that our species and modern apes had a common ancestor some number of iterations ago. There is ample evidence of other human like creatures who pre-existed us or who lived along side of us like the neanderthals but were unsuccessful in continuing their lineage.

As for the burnt out sun question, I am not a scientist but I understand spectrum analysis is used to measure hydrogen output, lack of which means the star is dying or dead. This is all well documented science, not at all controversial. I would recommend a visit to your nearest planetarium, they are entertaining as well as educational.

ford family

 

[ford family]

You could be absolutely correct. But I love how God takes the work of the enemy and twist and bends it to his will. Time will tell I guess.

Oh dear, Breezy! Why are we Godless folk the enemy?

ford family

 

[Pigeon]

Breezy.....on a slightly more sinister note, i feel Darwinism was probably "invented" to help push GOD from the equation of life. Kinda like taking the "Christ" out of Christmas for secular reasons. JMHO

Then the all powerful god must think it's time god got pushed out of the equation.

 

[SSAVL]

Surely the question is why would manatees and elephants and humans have the same skeletal features if they didn't have common ancestors millions of years ago?

I think the scientific understanding is that our species and modern apes had a common ancestor some number of iterations ago. There is ample evidence of other human like creatures who pre-existed us or who lived along side of us like the neanderthals but were unsuccessful in continuing their lineage.

As for the burnt out sun question, I am not a scientist but I understand spectrum analysis is used to measure hydrogen output, lack of which means the star is dying or dead. This is all well documented science, not at all controversial. I would recommend a visit to your nearest planetarium, they are entertaining as well as educational.

ford family

With all due respect, EVERYTHING in your post, right down to the star theory is just that, THEORY!! And i see you used Google also to find that star answer, i read the exact same passage, word for word.

 

[Uncle Remus]

With all due respect, EVERYTHING in your post, right down to the star theory is just that, THEORY!! And i see you used Google also to find that star answer, i read the exact same passage, word for word.

Yikes, you say theory like it's a bad word, google it, it ain't what you think it is.

 

[MeghansMommy]

I know. And they say there's no such thing as synchronicity...

Sure there is - it's a hit Police song.

Where did you get your history degree(s)???????

I got mine from the University of Michigan and I four pointed my major. Where did you get yours?

Very interesting... I also find the whole love affair with Lincoln questionable. The war he waged was not about slavery; it was about the southern states suceeding from the union-his union. Slavery was just a end result; it was never part of his agenda.

Yep.

Sorry, but I have speech transcripts, legal documents, everything. What have you got? Everything that I posted is true. You show up and throw in a post. How about showing me that the speeches didn't happen, or that the transcripts were wrong, or that he didn't suspend habeas corpus, or that he didn't have a warrant brought up to have a supreme court justice (Taney) imprisoned (warrant was never used).

Read here about the suspension of habeas corpus: Link...

Read here about the arrest warrant for Supreme Court Chief Justice Taney:Link... link2...

And understand one more thing - the Southern states had a Constitutionally guaranteed right to secede. 10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. Secession is not mentioned in the Constitution, so there is no power around it granted to the federal government. It is left up to the states. And this was discussed in great detail during the Constitutional Conventions, and a few states actually wrote into their agreement, when ratifying the Constitution and joining the Union, that they retained the right to leave the Union at any time.

The War of Northern Agression was a power play, pure and simple.

Read here about Lincoln's speeches and his racial strategy: Link...

Yep.

Actually, it is taught now that slavery (while a big part of the civil war) was not the main issue. It was a state's rights war. It was a war to determine if states had the rights they thought they had or the rights given to them in the Constitution. It started when Jefferson and Madison wrote the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions that stated that states had the capability to nullify federal law. Southern states (South Carolina specifically) began to nullify laws and the government said they could not. Things got worse and South Carolina preceded to secede from the Union.

The Civil War is not the clear cut war it is made out to be. There are many reasons other than slavery.

Besides, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation did nothing to free the slaves in northern border states. They were still slaves. It was a speech that had no legal effect because he was talking to what many southerners believed to be a different country. It is equivalent to President Obama telling the Middle East to lay down their arms because he says so.

Yep.

Per your article.

The people of the State of South Carolina, in Convention assembled, on the 26th day of April, A.D., 1852, declared that the frequent violations of the Constitution of the United States, by the Federal Government, and its encroachments upon the reserved rights of the States, fully justified this State in then withdrawing from the Federal Union; but in deference to the opinions and wishes of the other slaveholding States, she forbore at that time to exercise this right. Since that time, these encroachments have continued to increase, and further forbearance ceases to be a virtue.


I didn't say that slavery had nothing to do with it. All I said is that there are other motivations involved other than slavery. I have had both Conservative and Liberal teachers teach this as well as most modern history text books. It makes the Civil War stand in a clearer light when you take the other motivations into consideration.

Yep.

Much more, but I'm too lazy to type tonight.

I love how this thread has two strains. Funny.