Getting thrown off the plane because your fat!

[Lewisc]

Your point wasn't missed. It was addressed.

Mr. Smith identified himself as a customer of size when he purchased 2 tickets. Is he really a customer of size?

YES? Then he's wrong and SW is right.

NO? Then he's wrong for "gaming the system". SW isn't' wrong if they used Mr. Smith's own evaluation for determination.

I don't know if another passenger complained. Had I complained I might deny it rather then getting sucked into being a target of Mr. Smiths rants. Could the armrest be lowered most of the way. Maybe but there isn't a reason for the SW FA to check. Mr. Smith already told SW he doesn't fit.

Your extensive experience suggests Mr. Smiths version may not be completely accurate.

I understand SW gets far more complaints from passengers seated next to a passenger who almost needs a second seat then from a passenger who has to purchase a second seat.

Another point missed....

Most of the people on this board are not saying that they disagree with Southwest's rule. They are not saying that people have the right to encroach on other people's space. The biggest concern for most is the way in which Southwest enforces their rule. The Southwest rule says that the determining factor is if the person can lower the armrests completely. It even goes so far as to mention that shoulder width is NOT a determining factor. The use of a seatbelt extender is also NOT a determining factor. Only the armrest. Mr. Smith was able to lower both armrests and he was still removed from a flight. Tight fit or not, rules are rules and Southwest did not follow their own rules. This is absolutely not the first time this has been in the news. Southwest has a pattern of inconsistently enforcing it's own rules and this is what bothers people. I am borderline. I have flown more miles than probably 90% of the people on this board. Many on Southwest. I have never once been questioned by a flight crew nor have I even thought that I might be questioned. However, it concerns me now. Not that I can't fit into the seat but that I will be a victim of an airline employee who does not follow their own rules.

 

[kaytieeldr]

A passenger who identifies himself as a customer of size can't complain when he's treated as one.

However, as a self-identified Customer of Size, it appears Southwest erred in allowing him to board standby on a flight on which he could not be accommodated.

 

[kaytieeldr]

The best bet is to be seated with your own family,who don't mind a tight squeeze with someone who's not a stranger.... sitting between my own average sized family was squished enough for me!

Even THAT violates Southwest's C.o.S. policy - they feel (rightfully) that each ticket entitles the passenger to one (and only one) complete seat. Plus, with their open-seating policy, there's no guarantee any passenger will be seated with other family members of any size.

 

[Lewisc]

However, as a self-identified Customer of Size, it appears Southwest erred in allowing him to board standby on a flight on which he could not be accommodated.

SW admits the GA made a mistake in allowing Mr. Smith to board the plane.

 

[kaytieeldr]

Then, respectfully Lewis, how can this be considered a publicity stunt?

 

[bavaria]

Well I really feel that I should take grey goose's advice and not feed the trolls, out....

For those of you who don't feel it's an issue of discrimination or as serious an issues as racial discrimination or discrimination based on a disability, try wearing a fat suit for a day, or maybe even just shoving a couple of extra large pillows in your clothing and see how you feel after that!!!

The posters who are listing facts and have tens of thousands of posts are not trolls. They may be saying things which you do not wish to hear, but that doesn't make them trolls. All three are valuable sources of information here and on other sites, and have been for years.

Go read www.flyertalk.com, where SWA has an official presence. Lewis is stating what happened from a factual not an emotional basis.

And remove the emotion and think logically. There are limits to everything, and the reality is that some people do not fit into one seat. There are rules in place to address that.

This entire situation is a tempest in a teapot from someone unknown to many of us, but who has certainly displayed a lot about his personality and his nature over the past few days. I certainly have very little respect for him (but I DO have respect for the posters you call trolls, even though I often do not agree with them, because they do handle themselves with grace and respect others)

 

[ratmaster]

Your point wasn't missed. It was addressed.

Mr. Smith identified himself as a customer of size when he purchased 2 tickets. Is he really a customer of size?

YES? Then he's wrong and SW is right.

NO? Then he's wrong for "gaming the system". SW isn't' wrong if they used Mr. Smith's own evaluation for determination.

I don't know if another passenger complained. Had I complained I might deny it rather then getting sucked into being a target of Mr. Smiths rants. Could the armrest be lowered most of the way. Maybe but there isn't a reason for the SW FA to check. Mr. Smith already told SW he doesn't fit.

Your extensive experience suggests Mr. Smiths version may not be completely accurate.

I understand SW gets far more complaints from passengers seated next to a passenger who almost needs a second seat then from a passenger who has to purchase a second seat.

So, what you are saying is that if I purchase an extra seat, just to be on the safe side because I am borderline, I should not be allowed to stay on an earlier flight where there is only 1 seat...even if my "just in case" purchase was unfounded and I was able to fit in a single seat according to Southwest's rules...as Mr. Smith was able to do.

 

[Lewisc]

Then, respectfully Lewis, how can this be considered a publicity stunt?

I don't think I ever agreed with the conspiracy posters who thought Mr. Smith planned this as a publicity stunt.

Rather I think Mr. Smith decided to take advantage of the situation (after the fact) to generate publicity. AFAIK Mr. Smith is the cause of the publicity.

 

[Looking4themouse]

I personally am not saying that I disagree with the rule, however, when someone is treated in a fashion that lacks everyone's right to be treated with dignity and respect, I do have a problem with it. As far as the ride situation goes, I pointed that out because the individuals involved did not make a big deal out of it, they just handled it, without causing a scene, or making her feel like she was less than human because of her size, or her disability. She was already mortified enough as it was. In this situation I'm not sure how it was handled, but something certainly should have been said to Mr. Smith ahead of time, in order to prevent his being uncomfortable, it's pretty obvious he is a person of size, although I have to say he doesn't look like he would infringe on my space in a seat. If they had made a comment ahead of time, stating, that because he was a person of size he may be asked to deboard the plane that would at least have left him in the drivers seat, with the ability to decide whether or not he wanted to risk it. They must have looked up his ticket when he asked for an earlier flight. However, allowing him to board then telling him to get off??? I mean come on now....

 

[Lewisc]

So, what you are saying is that if I purchase an extra seat, just to be on the safe side because I am borderline, I should not be allowed to stay on an earlier flight where there is only 1 seat...even if my "just in case" purchase was unfounded and I was able to fit in a single seat according to Southwest's rules...as Mr. Smith was able to do.

Yes. A person who doesn't need a second seat isn't eligible to take advantage of SWs policy. Once a passener tells SW they need a second seat there is no reason to question the passenger.

Would you prefer a SW employee telling a borderline passenger, who wants the extra space, he's not "fat enough"? Put a standby passenger in the seat? Flight's not filled don't offer a refund for the empty seat?

I suspect a number of "normal sized" passengers would love to take advantage of SWs policy of refudning the cost of an empty seat if the flight isn't full. I'd love an empty middle seat.

 

[Halloweenqueen]

I think people need to listen to Kevin's podcast about the incident. I think it could clear up a lot of misinformation.

Kevin usually buys extra seats because he can. Southwest does not offer first class, so he buys multiple tickets for space for his family. In fact he bought three tickets on that trip, but his wife could not attend. On his first leg he printed out one ticket, but remembered he had two additional, so he asked the desk for a second seat to be printed. The attendant looked on his reservation and printed all three seats. When he told the attendant about the error he was told he could apply the extra ticket for a credit later (the flight was boarding)

He had the same two seats reserved when he was flying back, but decided to come home early and asked to be placed on standby. They called his name last, he was the last to board the plane. He seated himself in the middle seat...seatbelt on, armrest down...when the airport attendant removed him from the plane. Both ladies to either side of him had not complained about him (he was only seated for a few minutes) The attendant said the pilot deemed him a safety risk and asked him to get off. Since he didn't want to cause a scene that would likely put him in handcuffs, he got off. SW later admitted the pilot never made that decision.


Smith was put on the next flight. He had the original two seats. He choose the window. A woman of size at in his row on the aisle. Shortly before take off an attendant asked the woman to get off the plane. She returned a short time later. She told Smith that the attendant told her she would have to buy two seats in the future, but could stay on the flight if he agreed to share is middle seat. They both had seatbelts on and armrests down...btw

Kevin thought SW purposedly embarrassed the lady unnecessarily since there was no cause to have to take her off the plane.

I do not think for a second that this is some way for Kevin to promote his movie. First it isn't his movie, he just directed it. Secondly...no one would want to go through the embarrassment he is feeling now. It was obvious through his podcast, blogs, etc..that he is in great pain over this ordeal.

I have been heavy most of my life (recently have lost over 100lbs) but would never fly SW because of this policy. They either have to come out and give more strict guidelines (and be prepared for some lawsuits) or make the planes more comfortable for everyone.

Planes today are nothing more than cattle cars. We all should speak up about this policy and other insane things like paying for pillows or even checked in baggage.

 

[bavaria]

Hats off to Mr. Smith! This thread has now outlived its usefulness.

Where was all the drama and outrage a week ago? This is not a new policy and has certainly been prominent for a very long time.

 

[ColinCodyMom]

So after all of this, we still don't know what they consider to be too large? It's up for interpretation based on the crew at the time?? I can fit fine in airline seats and in movie seats and I intend to sit between my two small children, but I would actually have to worry that some flight attendant having a not so good day might tell me to get off the plane? This happened twice in Kevin Smith's presence on the same day!! Once to him and once to another lady. Any indication what her size was? Gosh, this just keeps getting better... I know this isn't something new but there should be some standard. If both of them had their armrests down, then what is the standard they use? I don't think I've seen many people that fit in those tiny seats without something encroaching somewhere???

 

[bavaria]

Is people actually reading or are readers just letting emotion and the drama of the situation take control?

I spent (wasted) about an hour reading various websites which are not very drama-filled and based on the information and facts I am fairly clear on the policies.

None of us truly know exactly what happened in this particular situation.

 

[Lewisc]

People need to read the SWs website (blog) and read posts on flyertalk. That can clear up some of the misinformation.

You can't just buy extra seats, you need to provide the passengers name. This the first I've heard that Mr. Smith bought a ticket for his wife. Doesn't really matter. This wouldn't be the first time something changed and a family member didn't make a flight. The point is Mr. Smith bought a second seat for himself. He did so under SWs customer of size policy. That policy is extended to customers who won't fit in one seat. SW refunds the fare for the extra seat if the flight isn't sold out.

SW has said the GA made a mistake letting Smith board the flight. He said he was a customer of size when he reserved two tickets.

SW was making a point to the woman passenger. The rule is you purchase two seats. You get a refund if the flight isn't sold out. Making an exception if the flight has a lot of empty seats encourages passengers not to bother reserving a second seat.

We don't know exactly what happened. The pilot asked the FA to complete boarding as quickly as possible. Mr. Smith said he was seated, with the armrest fully down and none of the passengers complained. Letting Mr. Smith remain in his seat would have allowed the plane to depart quicker then asking him to deplane. It's certainly possible the FA was wrong. It's also possible one of the other passengers said something (verbally or with a gesture) and doesn't want to make a public comment. It's also possible the arm rest wasn't fully down. My guess is the arm rest wasn't down when the FA first looked.

Sorry but I don't think listening to Mr. Smith's podcast guarantees accurate information.

I think people need to listen to Kevin's podcast about the incident. I think it could clear up a lot of misinformation.

Kevin usually buys extra seats because he can. Southwest does not offer first class, so he buys multiple tickets for space for his family. In fact he bought three tickets on that trip, but his wife could not attend. On his first leg he printed out one ticket, but remembered he had two additional, so he asked the desk for a second seat to be printed. The attendant looked on his reservation and printed all three seats. When he told the attendant about the error he was told he could apply the extra ticket for a credit later (the flight was boarding)

He had the same two seats reserved when he was flying back, but decided to come home early and asked to be placed on standby. They called his name last, he was the last to board the plane. He seated himself in the middle seat...seatbelt on, armrest down...when the airport attendant removed him from the plane. Both ladies to either side of him had not complained about him (he was only seated for a few minutes) The attendant said the pilot deemed him a safety risk and asked him to get off. Since he didn't want to cause a scene that would likely put him in handcuffs, he got off. SW later admitted the pilot never made that decision.


Smith was put on the next flight. He had the original two seats. He choose the window. A woman of size at in his row on the aisle. Shortly before take off an attendant asked the woman to get off the plane. She returned a short time later. She told Smith that the attendant told her she would have to buy two seats in the future, but could stay on the flight if he agreed to share is middle seat. They both had seatbelts on and armrests down...btw

Kevin thought SW purposedly embarrassed the lady unnecessarily since there was no cause to have to take her off the plane.

I do not think for a second that this is some way for Kevin to promote his movie. First it isn't his movie, he just directed it. Secondly...no one would want to go through the embarrassment he is feeling now. It was obvious through his podcast, blogs, etc..that he is in great pain over this ordeal.

I have been heavy most of my life (recently have lost over 100lbs) but would never fly SW because of this policy. They either have to come out and give more strict guidelines (and be prepared for some lawsuits) or make the planes more comfortable for everyone.

Planes today are nothing more than cattle cars. We all should speak up about this policy and other insane things like paying for pillows or even checked in baggage.

 

[NotUrsula]

Drama or no drama, it's just simple common sense that a person who is too large (weight *OR* shoulder width) to fit in an a conventional coach airline seat without encroaching on the next seat over should always plan to buy two seats. I think that if you have self-identified as always needing two seats, you should not be surprised if the airline presumes that you do in fact require two seats.

As I see it, in this situation both parties are somewhat at fault. Smith should have fessed up immediately to his habit of buying two seats even though he really doesn't need them, and SWA should apologize for handling the situation badly (which it appears they have.)

I think that there *should* be a bit of help from federal law in regard to this problem. I think that the US govt. should mandate a certain size range for the width of coach airline seats (armrest to armrest) so that the expectation will be clear.

I also think that the US government should mandate a rule about the selling of airline "berths" -- that a passenger may not be denied the opportunity to purchase as many seats as he wants to at the advertised price, even if he wants 4 seats for one person. If you pay for it at the going rate, it should be yours to do with as you wish, including keeping it empty.

The airlines have largely brought this upon themselves by their insistence on scrounging double revenue for seats wherever possible. Right now, if there are standbys and you've purchased a second seat for space, it is perfectly normal for the airline to tell you that they are refunding your extra ticket whether you want it or not, and taking back the seat. I've had them try to take my child's seat back dozens of times: she's tiny for her age, and I'm often told that they will refund her seat if I lap-carry her. When I tell them that she isn't a legal lap-child, some FA's still hint that I could get away with it if I'd just give up that seat.

I was on a Delta Connection flight (on a CRJ) a couple of days ago when Delta allowed a large passenger to sit in a seat that he just should NOT have been in. It was a full flight and we were seated in 12 C/D. The FA came back and asked the couple in 11 C/D if their seats had extra-long belts, and when told that they did, she ordered them to get their things and follow her forward. A few minutes later a VERY large gentleman came down the aisle and maneuvered himself into 11C/D -- I say maneuvered because that is what he did. He was around 6'5" and had to have weighed at least 280 (probably more, as he wasn't thin.) He started facing aft, bent himself double, then twisted toward the bulkhead and around to face forward. He had to recline the seats because his head hit the underside of the overhead if he didn't. When he finally got situated there was about 9" of shoulder room left in 11C. At that point here came his wife, who proceeded to lift the aisle armrest and belt herself into what was left of 11C, leaving that armrest up, and sitting with only one cheek of her tush on the seat. The FA let them fly that way! It was clearly dangerous and uncomfortable for her, and it is strictly against FAA rules to let a passenger fly with the aisle armrest raised, but Delta is apparently willing to turn a blind eye. I was appalled.

 

[snowbunny]

Where was all the drama and outrage a week ago? This is not a new policy and has certainly been prominent for a very long time.

Most of the drama seems to be from people who do not understand Southwest's written policy. A passenger cannot purchase "extra" seats simply for convenience and then decide what to do with them.

Anyone who thinks Mr. Smith has been treated badly here should read what pilots and FAs are saying about the incident over at airliners.net.

 

[Halloweenqueen]

To the PP...SW has actually reposted information, correcting many of the things you are pointing out. I tend to believe Kevin's story, since no one involved in the incident with SW is willing to talk.

The woman who sat by Kevin on the flight has actually been interviewed and spoke with Kevin on his lastest podcast. Her story comfirms his.

 

[Halloweenqueen]

Most of the drama seems to be from people who do not understand Southwest's written policy. A passenger cannot purchase "extra" seats simply for convenience and then decide what to do with them.

Anyone who thinks Mr. Smith has been treated badly here should read what pilots and FAs are saying about the incident over at airliners.net.

This is incorrect. I have a clotting disorder that makes me prone to DVTs. I have bought an extra ticket so I can put my leg up from time to time. No one ever asked if I had a "reason" for my extra seat. (i'm average size and my husband is very slim, btw)

When we take long flights we usually try to buy the row for more room. It is cheaper than buying business or first class. I've done this on many coast to coast and international flights.

 

[MAGICFOR2]

The policy always has been kind of strange and open to different interpretations by staff. Essentially, however, if you can't or think you won't be able to fit in the 17" space between the arm rests then you are supposed to buy two tickets. If you wind up fitting in one seat or if the flight isn't full, they are supposed to get the money for the second ticket refunded.

Here's their official policy:

http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/***_guidelines.html

I am an average sized woman - size 10 - and I am not 17 inches wide - who Is????? I think they need to make seats the size of real people! In thinking about the "encroaching" on the seat next to you - I have spent many flights in the middle seat between two men (one being my DH) who both had large shoulders and I got a neck ache from having my shoulders scrunched up between them. There just isn't enough space.